How Many Political Points?

[GaryChildress]

This is the situation in my current mod:

1) All reinforcements arriving on the Japanese mainland are assigned to Home Defense forces, a static command. All reinforcements arriving in Aden, Karchi and the West Coast US are assigned to static commands as well.

2) Units which start out in China, Manchukuo, and Japanese home Island which are traditionally assigned to Southern Area, Burma Area, etc are all given the static command of their respective locations. Same with the Allies. In other words IJA 38th, 21st, 33rd, divs are assigned to China Expeditionary and 56th Div and 56th Brigade in Japan are assigned to home defense forces. A similar rule is in effect for the allies. 2nd Marine Division starts out assigned to West Coast.

Two more things to consider:

3) The Japanese can only transfer so many units out of China before they are too weak to fight the Chinese.

4) The Japanese can only transfer so many units out of Manchukuo before they are low enough to activate the Soviets.

I originally set PPs at 1000 per turn. This is starting to seem like too many. I'm thinking 500 per turn is probably more reasonable. Castor Troy is saying that even 250 per turn is too many.

Another thing to take into consideration is that this mod also tries to simulate the possibility that the Japanese could have committed more divisions to the Pacific than they historically did without over exposing themselves in China and Manchukuo.

How many political points would be the right amount? [&:]

[el cid again]

Curiously enough, RHS has examined this matter in some detail. Because of intense debates and different preferences, we opted to go for multiple scenarios so this could be addressed differently in different games/situations.

I used almost exactly the methodology you describe. But I don't think it is quite right to regard China or Manchukuo as "static commands" - units in them at least can go between each other. And I don't think you CAN activate the Soviets UNLESS you invade a certain hex - even air attacks or invading different hexes won't do the job. Too few units triggers a political point penalty (except in scenarios with the Soviets set Active - which I think makes more sense but again - it is a matter of strong disagreements).

One thing for sure: AI will NOT use a lot of pp. So IF you do a scenario for AI controlling Japan - Japan needs few pp. [AI is not up to controlling the Allies - so I don't comment on that]

Originally I tried to give each side the ability to transfer about a division a day - and tried values as high as 1500 and 3000 pp. These turned out to be indeed more than anyone can use - and I ended up where you begain - 1000 points per day. But that ONLY in "pp oriented scenarios: PPO, and EOS family. And even then, in AIO - which IS EOS family - only the ALLIES get the pp - the Japanese AI won't use em - so they get few. And also - because EOS begins with a radical deployment - virtually ALL pp are expended at the start - to get things to their starting positions.

For a "normal" scenairo - CVO and BBO families - we use 100 pp per day. On the other hand, these are like stock and CHS - the reinforcements appear with "pre expended" pp - they are assigned to forward commands. This is fine IF you want the units to have to go where they really went in the real war - mostly - with just a bit of flexabilty for theater command. But a game war is not always going to be like the real one - and it may mean many units end up assigned to the wrong place - and are unable to change in a reasonable time. I think your approach is far more logical: take the pp away from the units and assign them home commands (a LOT of work as you no doubt found out) - and let PLAYERS decide when and where to expend them.

Look at it this way: too many pp don't hurt you - they make you more or less immune to pp penalties - but that is hardly a harm to you. Too few and you are not boss any more. Can you imagine it? "Yes, we have 150,000 men - but we can't get so and so to let us send them to your part of the ocean"

[John 3rd]

Since I am going to be a Guinea Pig with this Mod, why don't we try it at 500?  I, personally, find that high--250 might be good--but will try it.  As the Japanese player I will be able to let people know how quickly things happen. 
 
Will probably try an AAR with Stafford about our views of the Mod.

[okami]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

For a "normal" scenairo - CVO and BBO families - we use 100 pp per day. On the other hand, these are like stock and CHS - the reinforcements appear with "pre expended" pp - they are assigned to forward commands. This is fine IF you want the units to have to go where they really went in the real war - mostly - with just a bit of flexabilty for theater command. But a game war is not always going to be like the real one - and it may mean many units end up assigned to the wrong place - and are unable to change in a reasonable time. I think your approach is far more logical: take the pp away from the units and assign them home commands (a LOT of work as you no doubt found out) - and let PLAYERS decide when and where to expend them.

To build on this idea, what if you start with an accumulated amount of PP(ie:6000-10000) and then only get a smaller amount a day(ie:100-150). This would simulate the initial reaction of the DOW followed by the Political infighting of Area Commands as the war went on. If the PP are to high then the RN may never send their ships back to Britain. If they are to low then units on the west coast may never enter the war in a meaningful way.

[John 3rd]

That idea may have some merit.  I believe that Gary said everyone starts with 5000 PP.
 

[John 3rd]

I just posted and realized something.  Should the Japanese start with a much higher number of points (say 10,000--the ability to pull 3 Infantry Divisions) while the Allies start MUCH lower (1,000 PP to relfect them being caught flatfooted by the Japanese opening offensive? 
 
That seems to me to be more relistic.
 
After the opener, then allow anywhere from Okami's suggestion up to 500 PP/Day.
 

[VSWG]

With such a high amount of PPs to spend, the British withdrawal will become a non-issue for the Allies. Don't know if this is an additional benefit, or an unintended consequence.

[John 3rd]

Good Point.
 
My thoughts continue along raising the initial pool for the Japanese with a lower pool for the Allies and then a lower PP line and--if nothing else--it could REALLY slowdown things within the Pacific if it went that way.  Brian runs it at 100 a day for his Big B Mod and that has been pretty good.  Still think that 100-250 would be enough to keep the ball rolling.
 
I assume that I have to install CHS first and then the Mod next.  Is this correct?  Plan to do this tomorrow morning.  Will be committed at that point...
 

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I just posted and realized something.  Should the Japanese start with a much higher number of points (say 10,000--the ability to pull 3 Infantry Divisions) while the Allies start MUCH lower (1,000 PP to relfect them being caught flatfooted by the Japanese opening offensive? 

That seems to me to be more relistic.

After the opener, then allow anywhere from Okami's suggestion up to 500 PP/Day.

Since Japan is starting with units in place for an offensive - they should be considered to have expended their PP to do that. The Allies - OTH - are reacting to the unexpected - and probably can make big changes in planning / assumptions based on knowing the old ideas are no longer germane - and new threats exist. So I see this as backwards - and in the ultra Japan enhanced scenarios I give Japan virtually no starting pp - but the allies significant numbers. It seems unlikely Japan would not be stretched by its initial plan - whatever it is - and should not be free to dream up a whole lot more. IMHO>

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: VSWG

With such a high amount of PPs to spend, the British withdrawal will become a non-issue for the Allies. Don't know if this is an additional benefit, or an unintended consequence.

I don't think most players withdraw. I find I am not even ABLE to withdraw if I want to - can't get there in time. Unless I leave the ships at Aden or something - I get penalized in any case.

[GaryChildress]

As it stands right now I've placed a version of the mod on my website for John 3rd and dpstafford with 5000 starting PPs for both sides and 500 per turn for both sides. I could maybe knock the Japanese down to 250 per turn but, mind you, many Japanese formations which normally start the war assigned to Southern Area and Burma area are starting out with Home Defense forces or China Expeditionary. Nothing in Japan proper nor in China or Manchukuo will start out slated for Southern Area or any of the other mobile commands.

Also keep in mind that all reinforcements arriving in the Japanese Home Islands or China will need to have their commands changed to a mobile one as well in order to deploy in SEA or the Pacific.

I'm loading a version of the mod with 250 PPs per turn on my web site along with the 500 point/turn one. This will give you a choice.

For 500 PPs per turn the download address is:

http://www.geocities.com/garychildress4 ... d_Beta.zip

For 250 PPs per turn the download address is:

http://www.geocities.com/garychildress4 ... eta250.zip

[John 3rd]

What do I need for a CHS install and where should I find it? I am computer challenged so please use small, simple words! [:D]

Gary--We will try your 250 and I will run an AAR for commentary on the Mod.

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

As it stands right now I've placed a version of the mod on my website for John 3rd and dpstafford with 5000 starting PPs for both sides and 500 per turn for both sides. I could maybe knock the Japanese down to 250 per turn but, mind you, many Japanese formations which normally start the war assigned to Southern Area and Burma area are starting out with Home Defense forces or China Expeditionary. Nothing in Japan proper nor in China or Manchukuo will start out slated for Southern Area or any of the other mobile commands.

Also keep in mind that all reinforcements arriving in the Japanese Home Islands or China will need to have their commands changed to a mobile one as well in order to deploy in SEA or the Pacific.

I'm loading a version of the mod with 250 PPs per turn on my web site along with the 500 point/turn one. This will give you a choice.

For 500 PPs per turn the download address is:

http://www.geocities.com/garychildress4 ... d_Beta.zip

For 250 PPs per turn the download address is:

http://www.geocities.com/garychildress4 ... eta250.zip

For 1942-43 ... the set up in stock works fairly well ... but in 44-45 the # of PP for the IJA at least should be much higher ... so ideally there should be a sliding scale ... at least for the IJA ...

Also making the total too high initially can have undesired effects .. as I learned in my "Cautionaries" MOD for WPO. You never can predict what the player will release!

[GaryChildress]

Hi John,

Installation instructions:



1. Do a FRESH INSTALL of War in the Pacific in a new directory on your computer. This will be the exclusive install for this mod. You will not be able to use standard graphics with this mod so you'll either need to do this fresh install or else, more tediously, swap out files as you switch to different scenarios. I apologize. Unfortunately I'm not familiar with how to create a mod installation utility to make the install easier.


2. Go to Andrew Brown's Web Site http://www.bur.st/~akbrown/witp/CHS_download.html and, following the instructions on his site, download and install Andrew Brown's CHS map (his Extended Map), and the rest of the CHS package.


3. Once all the CHS Components are installed, do the following:


4. Copy and paste all the Allied Ship Sides from the "Gary Mod Allied Ship Sides" folder into the War in the Pacific folder: ART/AlliedShip_Back


5. Copy and paste all the Allied ship shils from the "Gary Mod Allied Ship Shils" folder into the War in the Pacific folder: ART/AlliedShip_Transp


6. Copy and paste all the Japanese ship sides from the "Gary Mod Jap Ship Sides" folder into the War in the Pacific folder: ART/JapShip_Back


7. Copy and paste all the Japanese ship shils from the "Gary Mod Jap Ship Shils" Folder into the War in the Pacific Folder: ART/JapShipShills_Transp


8. Copy and paste all the files from the "Gary Mod Art Other" Folder into the main War in the Pacific ART folder replacing the existing files.


9. Copy and paste the file pwhex.dat into the main War in the Pacific Directory replacing the existing file. (Don't forget to make backups of your original file)

10. Copy and paste the Gary Mod Scenario Files into the War in the Pacific SCEN folder. If you already have a scenario 197 in your install of WitP then these files will over write them. So be sure to make backups of any scenario files numbered 197 which you may have in the SCEN folder.


11. Find a human opponent.


12. Run War in the Pacific.


13. Choose Scenario 197.


14. Choose to play by e-mail (PBEM)


15. Choose the setting for a "non-historic" first turn


16. It is advisable to choose Player Defined Upgrades "ON"


Let me know if you have any questions regarding the material above and I will try to help.

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

For 1942-43 ... the set up in stock works fairly well ... but in 44-45 the # of PP for the IJA at least should be much higher ... so ideally there should be a sliding scale ... at least for the IJA ...

Also making the total too high initially can have undesired effects .. as I learned in my "Cautionaries" MOD for WPO. You never can predict what the player will release!

Unfortunately, without a sliding scale, my mod is mostly counting on the Japanese player to think ahead and use political points wisely. [:(]

[John 3rd]

Thanks for the help Gary.  I will do the install today and let you know!
 

[GaryChildress]

You're welcome. Keep me posted on how well the 250 per turn works out for the two of you.