Please include in patch!!!

[dodod]

I just did a test with prussia and austria attacking france with loaned corp to austria...under charles.

Political points not gained/lost by prussia!!!

this makes allying much less useful!

I believe the board game would give/lose political points to both parties. This makes the dynamics of weaker nations much much worse.

This has to be easy to correct. can you please correct this.

[Mardonius]

Concur. This is critical.

[Murat]

Well now we know the answer. No pp.

[Soapy Frog]

How could something like that go this long unnoticed? In many ways it is a game-breaker.

[zaquex]

I think this has been known and was reported by Marshall very early

[fvianello]

ORIGINAL: dodod

I just did a test with prussia and austria attacking france with loaned corp to austria...under charles.

Political points not gained/lost by prussia!!!

this makes allying much less useful!

I believe the board game would give/lose political points to both parties. This makes the dynamics of weaker nations much much worse.

This has to be easy to correct. can you please correct this.

I agree, critical bug....almost no point in loaning corps.

[AresMars]

How did this get by the Playtesters?

There had to be AT LEAST one experienced boardgame EIA player in that group....

Now, I am disappointed in this current version of the game.....

Could/would Matrix comment on this issue?

[Marshall Ellis]

It was not in the loaned corps design to give pp to the loaner as well. This wasn't missed by the testers but not part of the original loaned corps function design. I have no problem looking at changing this if this will make the corps loaning more advantageous. Anybody else have an opinion?
 
BTW:ALL of the testers are experienced EiA board gamers and AGAIN, this was NOT their miss.
 

[AresMars]

Marshall,

The basic tenet of the game (1805 Grand Campaign) is to amass Victory Points (VP) through the winning of Political Points (PP) towards a goal total in a specific time frame.

This is normally done by several of the following methods;

a) Land battles, Sieges and Naval battles
b) Economic Manipulation
c) Control of and the political manipulation of Conquered, Minor and Free States
d) the creation of Kingdoms and new political combinations
e) others I may have missed

In the original game (based on my limited and possibly faulty memory), Allies could share (and should share) in the risk/reward of PP gain and loss through Combined Movement and shared economic combat losses.

If the current EIANW _CORPS on LOAN_ is the PC version of combined movement, where did you include the Political risk/reward then?

Did none of the testers mention this important point from the EiA game?  Did they not feel that it was critical or important?

I am sure that the bulk of your testers are much more experienced and capable then I , however, having played the game often this will always remain true and required IMHO....the comments of others (seem to me) to concur...

I mean no disrespect to you or your playtesters, but I am very surprised

Prussia and Austria need Allies against the French PP machine (Nappy and the French Army) and this requirement is most often is seen by Allies (Gb, Rs) including a corps or two (1 PP) to the various Armies for a possible 3PP gain, at the risk of a small portion of their total armies.  Also, Spain will be looking for Gb help when the French come calling.....

ADDED: Please excuse the negative tone of this post....

[Soapy Frog]

I agree with AresMars on all points.
 
Also one more thing... It's THE RULES. Participants in a land or naval battle all GAIN PP according to the number of enemy corps/fleets invovled in case of a win, or LOSE PP according to the number of THEIR corps/fleets involved in case of a loss. It is an important part of the game balance.
 
If this was deliberately left out, and agreed to by the playtesters, I am a little flabbergasted.

[dauphan129]

While in a situation where you had combined movement, joint planning on where to attack and 5 minute "Strategy Diplomacy" (House Rule) amongst Allies I can see what Ares Mars and Soapy Frog are saying here. In the PC game though at present we have no Combined Movement so if I were say Prussia I have to give my corps to Austria and hope for the best. I am not sure that I should have to pay in PP if Austria lost the battle.

Here is a couple thoughts though:

From the Board Game rules
7.5.2.10.1.3 Political Points For Winning/Losing Field Combats: The victor now gains political points and the loser loses them, recorded on the POLITICAL STATUS DISPLAY on the Status Card). Half a political point is gained or lost for each corps of the defeated side (rounding fractions up) used during any round of that combat (this includes corps in outflanking forces that never arrive, but not reinforcing corps that do not arrive) up to a maximum of "+ 3" political points. For this purpose a single corps which begins or reinforces a battle with more than 20 factors in it is treated as 2 corps.

From Ares Mars
Prussia and Austria need Allies against the French PP machine (Nappy and the French Army) and this requirement is most often is seen by Allies (Gb, Rs) including a corps or two (1 PP) to the various Armies for a possible 3PP gain, at the risk of a small portion of their total armies. Also, Spain will be looking for Gb help when the French come calling.....

Ares example seems wrong.
If you have 2 Prussian corp 2 Autria corps and 1 GB corps (Total five corps) fighting five France Corps and Austria/Prussia/GB win they each get +3 PP.
If they loose they each loose -3 PP not -1 each.
Notice the rule says : Half a political point is gained or lost for each corps of the defeated side.
Not half a PP for each of your countries participating Corps.

I may have mis-read your example but it looked like you were saying GB could risk -1pp for a potential gain of +3 pp. I apologize if that was not what you are trying to say here.

Also one more thing... It's THE RULES. Participants in a land or naval battle all GAIN PP according to the number of enemy corps/fleets invovled in case of a win, or LOSE PP according to the number of THEIR corps/fleets involved in case of a loss. It is an important part of the game balance.

This is also an incorrect statement. Everyone on a side looses or gains the exact same amount.
Don't worry we did this wrong in board games for a few years as well.

[dodod]

I think the political point issue is vital and absolutely necessary.  If you participate in a battle, you should gain or lose the appropriate PR (political points).  When wars were fought, sometimes the allied cavalry was the cause of the victory and thus become legendary...or the artillery, etc.  I think without combined movement, this is the only way to have vested interest in each others' successes and failures as allies.

I think this should be in an early patch! Many PBEM games will suffer as a consequence of this lack of rule.  If people want it as an option not to do it fine, but the game rule should be default with this ON!!!!

This also enables france to get some allies...otherwise, it will be gang up on france because they will be the only ones to gain the napoleon advantage, etc...why would anyone loan a corp to france??? ever!

edit: Murat, I know they get PP on another front. But the incentive to fight may not be there if there is no PP to gain from battles. France can tell Spain, "if you help me, you get lots of PP from winning!!!" Spain can't do anything against Austria or Prussia on any front!

[Murat]

dauphan, you misread. Victory againt the 5 French corps awards +3pp each to Prussia, Austria and Britain while France loses 3pp. If France wins the same battle they gain 3pp but Prussia and Austria each go -2pp and Britain goes -1pp (1/2pp per corp involved rounded up).

ON a side note I always hated the PP generating machine as it was sort of artificial and it provided a net + pressure on the VP chart. I like the way the computer game has it in that whomever leads the stack handles the risks and rewards.

dodod, people can gain PP by not lending corps they just battle on another front.

[Mynok]

I don't recall corps loaning being a major PP generator in the boardgames I played. Maybe we just weren't inventive enough. [:D]

[Soapy Frog]

PP generator? That doesn't make sense. It's a vital game mechanic. Even if it worked the way Dauphan says it would be better than the current state.
 

ORIGINAL:  dauphan129
While in a situation where you had combined movement, joint planning on where to attack and 5 minute "Strategy Diplomacy" (House Rule) amongst Allies I can see what Ares Mars and Soapy Frog are saying here.   In the PC game though at present we have no Combined Movement so if I were say Prussia I have to give my corps to Austria and hope for the best.  I am not sure that I should have to pay in PP if Austria lost the battle.

You contribute the forces you should share the risk and the reward of battle. The fact that the computer game does not allow you to control your corps when you want to combine forces with an ally is a an issue that does not change the fundamental mechanics necessary to the game.
 
AresMars stated the argument in the best possible terms. My addition to that is that you are officially tearing up the "guts" of the game without understanding how you are affecting it. The Naval changes, the minor changes, somewhat cosmetic, but this kind of thing is really starting to dig at the heart of the game.
 
I should add that as Prussia, for example, loaning away your whole army to the allied cause is ALREADY not very fun (dont even get to move your own pieces!). Now you are totally disinterested in the result except insofar as how many dead Prussians are handed back to you.
 

[JavaJoe]

I say yes any corps involved in a battle share the glory and the shame. Part of the decision making matrix, If I loan my British corps to the Prussian is he dopey enough to ram it into the entire French army without Blucher attached?

Now the amount of pps gained and lost is the next question.

+ 1/2 gained by the victor for each enemy corps on the losing side.

- 1/2 lost by the loser for each of his corps participating.

So a loaned corps can gobble up PP's if it is part of a grand coalition fighting a multi stacked foe.

Not much downside if you lose. This was the intention.

[dodod]

please please please put this in the patch.  Prussia has no leaders for a year.  Spain and Turkey never have good leaders...they would benefit from this enormously.  I can't believe Econ manipulation is in the game and not this.
 
It seems that combined movement is completely robbed in this game and there is little advantage in working TOGETHER which is a major part of the game.  If someone wants to depend on PP gained from battles, they should be able to.  It is their strategy.
 
I personally can't believe this isn't in the game already!!
 
 

[Monadman]

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

It was not in the loaned corps design to give pp to the loaner as well. This wasn't missed by the testers but not part of the original loaned corps function design. I have no problem looking at changing this if this will make the corps loaning more advantageous. Anybody else have an opinion?

BTW:ALL of the testers are experienced EiA board gamers and AGAIN, this was NOT their miss.

ORIGINAL: AresMars

Did none of the testers mention this important point from the EiA game? Did they not feel that it was critical or important?

I am sure that the bulk of your testers are much more experienced and capable then I , however, having played the game often this will always remain true and required IMHO....the comments of others (seem to me) to concur...

I mean no disrespect to you or your playtesters, but I am very surprised

You’re preaching to the choir pal.

What part of “NOT” did you not understand, the N the O or the T?

See if you can understand this any better. It did not matter how many times an issue was explained, demanded, or argued about, if Marshall said he could not do it, we were left with two choices; quit or move on to the next problem on a very long list of problems.

This project would still be back in the dark ages if we had not compromised on many issues at the time and never was it written in stone that once a decision was made on an issue we could not later return to it.

Recommendation: if you feel something is missing that is imperative to game, give commentary without pointing fingers.

Thanks

Richard

[dauphan129]

OK I am fine with it being in the game but it works as I explained in the game. People read a supposed "their" into the "each" part of the rule. Their is not there. This is the most argued rule I know as far as the split lost pp. If it is implemented (and that would be cool) it still is -.5pp per corps to all losers not just for their corps. Read the rule slowly a few times out loud. That is what I had to do to figure it out. It is not well worded but it is specific.

[dauphan129]

And I totally hear you Monadman.  Thank you all so much for getting us all this far.