Rules Clarification List

[Mziln]

I am drawing my information from the WiFFe-RAW-7.0.pdf 2001 (from the CWiF beta) and WiFFe-RAW-7.0.pdf 2007 (which you emailed me). That is why I would like Harrys input on this.

You are talking about:
"When a side only has bombers, all “AC” results that it rolls become “DC” results instead (allowing a bounce combat)."

But Frederycks example is with a fighter so my combat results are correct.

Since there would be no possiable Bounce Combat (this being an AC not a DC result) would this be considered an AA when the Attacker is guarding bombers?

20 ~ DX Red - The Defender destroys their own front fighter or bomber and the Pilot would die.
19 ~ DX Red - The Defender destroys their own front fighter or bomber and the Pilot would die.
18 ~ AA - The Attacker aborts the Defenders front fighter or bomber.
17 ~ AA - The Attacker aborts the Defenders front fighter or bomber.
16 ~ AA - The Attacker aborts the Defenders front fighter or bomber.
15 ~ DA - The Defender aborts their own front fighter or bomber.
14 ~ AC - The Attacker clears through any one Defender bomber (No possiable Bounce Combat).
13 ~ No effect.
12 ~ DC - The Defender clears through any one bomber (possiable Bounce Combat).
11 ~ DC - The Defender clears through any one bomber (possiable Bounce Combat).
10 ~ DC - The Defender clears through any one bomber (possiable Bounce Combat).
9 ~ DC - The Defender clears through any one bomber (possiable Bounce Combat).
8 ~ AC - The Attacker clears through any one Defender bomber (No possiable Bounce Combat).
7 ~ AC - The Attacker clears through any one Defender bomber (No possiable Bounce Combat).
6 ~ DA - The Defender aborts their own front fighter or bomber.
5 ~ AA - The Attacker aborts the Defenders front fighter or bomber.
4 ~ DX Green - The Defender destroys their own front fighter or bomber and the Pilot would live.
3 ~ DX Green - The Defender destroys their own front fighter or bomber and the Pilot would live.
2 ~ DX Green - The Defender destroys their own front fighter or bomber and the Pilot would live.

Reduce the results of air to air combat by 1 level:
an AX becomes a DX
a DX becomes an AA
an AA becomes a DA
a DA becomes a -
a - becomes an AC
an AC becomes a DC).

I still would like Harrys input on this. It seems strange to me that "No effect" is not the lowest result possiable.

[Frederyck]

If the colour-coded result for air combat is not changed for a Twin-engined FTR, then there is almost no chance of getting an orange result. In the A2A combat chart, all AX results (bar one) are red. These would all turn into red DX results for a Twin-engined FTR. The only result that would yield an orange result is on the -5,6 column when you roll a 20. That is an orange AX that turns into an orange DX for a Twin-Engined FTR.

This ruling would practically eliminate the orange result for an orange A2A-rating. Doesn't this seem just wrong... [8D]

[Froonp]

I still would like Harrys input on this. It seems strange to me that "No effect" is not the lowest result possiable.

This IS Harry's input.

This is what I wrote in my post.

Here's the complete FAQ (the new one) Q & A :
*****************************************
Q318> What is the new night fighter rule?

Answer> Reduce the results of air to air combat by 1 level (i.e. an AX becomes a DX, a DX becomes an AA, an AA becomes a DA, a DA becomes a -, a - becomes an AC and an AC becomes a DC). Date 03/11/1998 (Not so new these days). Date 29/12/2007

Rule Reference> 14.2.3 Option 52: During air-to-air combat (see 14.3.2) at night, all aircraft except night fighters (those aircraft with a black circle around its air-to-air rating) achieves one result less than normal. Thus an AX result becomes a DX, a DX becomes an AA, an AA becomes a DA and so on. A DC result is unaffected.
*****************************************

Granted, this is about night fighters, but the effect of the night fighters rule are the same as those of the orange circled fighters.

[Froonp]

It seems strange to me that "No effect" is not the lowest result possiable.

When you are the attacker, the best result is AX.
YOU choose to DESTROY a front enemy plane.
Then there is the DX. There is still an enemy plane destruction, but the enemy chooses which one of his front planes.

Then, there are the Aborts, with the same logic.
The better for you is AA as you choose which enemy front plane ABORTS the mission to base.
Then there is the DA, where the enemy chooses. This is still an abort, but the enemy chooses it.

Then there is the - (no result). This is not destructive toward the enemy NOR does it clears enemy planes. Clearing enemy planes is worse than that, because they are cleared, they will bomb you now. Achieving a - (no effect) at least keeps them right into your sights to shoot at them next time. Clearing them, they're gone, unhampered.

Then there is the AC result. YOU chooses which enemy planes can clear to its objective. This is the less worse of the Clear results for you, as YOU can choose the less efficient bomber.

And then, finally, there is the worst result that you can achieve on a plane YOU are ATTACKING, that is, the plane is not only missed, but it clears through to its objective.

Clearly, a DC is the worst you can achieve as an air to air combat result when you roll the dices to attack your enemy's planes.

Moreover, if you have a DC, your enemy could even spring back the attack on yourself by Bouncing ones of your planes. Not only you did achieve no destructive result on your enemy, but you managed to open a hole in your defense so that the enemy can now strike whatever planes they want in your group Great.

DC is clearly the worst.

[Mziln]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

It seems strange to me that "No effect" is not the lowest result possiable.

When you are the attacker, the best result is AX.
YOU choose to DESTROY a front enemy plane.
Then there is the DX. There is still an enemy plane destruction, but the enemy chooses which one of his front planes.

Then, there are the Aborts, with the same logic.
The better for you is AA as you choose which enemy front plane ABORTS the mission to base.
Then there is the DA, where the enemy chooses. This is still an abort, but the enemy chooses it.

Then there is the - (no result). This is not destructive toward the enemy NOR does it clears enemy planes. Clearing enemy planes is worse than that, because they are cleared, they will bomb you now. Achieving a - (no effect) at least keeps them right into your sights to shoot at them next time. Clearing them, they're gone, unhampered.

Then there is the AC result. YOU chooses which enemy planes can clear to its objective. This is the less worse of the Clear results for you, as YOU can choose the less efficient bomber.

And then, finally, there is the worst result that you can achieve on a plane YOU are ATTACKING, that is, the plane is not only missed, but it clears through to its objective.

Clearly, a DC is the worst you can achieve as an air to air combat result when you roll the dices to attack your enemy's planes.

Moreover, if you have a DC, your enemy could even spring back the attack on yourself by Bouncing ones of your planes. Not only you did achieve no destructive result on your enemy, but you managed to open a hole in your defense so that the enemy can now strike whatever planes they want in your group Great.

DC is clearly the worst.

Your argument has merit and is reflected in the A-2-A combat Minus One (-1) CRT. Where the results are AX, DX, AA, DA, No effect, AC, DC, DC, AC, No effect, DA, AA, DX, and AX.

Using Frederycks example the A-2A CRT results would look like this?

20 ~ DX Red - The Defender destroys their own front fighter or bomber and the Pilot would die.
19 ~ DX Red - The Defender destroys their own front fighter or bomber and the Pilot would die.
18 ~ AA - The Attacking (rolling) player aborts the Defending (non-rolling) players front fighter or bomber.
17 ~ AA - The Attacking (rolling) player aborts the Defending (non-rolling) players front fighter or bomber.
16 ~ AA - The Attacking (rolling) player aborts the Defending (non-rolling) players front fighter or bomber.
15 ~ DA - The Defending (non-rolling) player aborts their own front fighter or bomber.
14 ~ No effect.
13 ~ No effect.
12 ~ DC - The Defending (non-rolling) player clears through any one bomber (possiable Bounce Combat).
11 ~ DC - The Defending (non-rolling) player clears through any one bomber (possiable Bounce Combat).
10 ~ DC - The Defending (non-rolling) player clears through any one bomber (possiable Bounce Combat).
9 ~ DC - The Defending (non-rolling) player clears through any one bomber (possiable Bounce Combat).
8 ~ No effect.
7 ~ No effect.
6 ~ DA - The Defending (non-rolling) player aborts their own front fighter or bomber.
5 ~ AA - The Attacking (rolling) player aborts the Defending (non-rolling) players front fighter or bomber.
4 ~ DX Green - The Defending (non-rolling) player destroys their own front fighter or bomber and the Pilot would live.
3 ~ DX Green - The Defending (non-rolling) player destroys their own front fighter or bomber and the Pilot would live.
2 ~ DX Green - The Defending (non-rolling) player destroys their own front fighter or bomber and the Pilot would live.

The #13 result is "AC - The Attacking (rolling) player clears through any one Defending (non-rolling) player bomber" and is handled as a "No effect" as per the example in the RAW.

14.3.3 Combat results ~ Example:

Therefore, the Commonwealth combat value is “+3” (5-2) and the Italian combat value is “-3” (2-5). Maria rolls a 9 on the -3,4 column giving a result of ‘AC’ which is ignored, since all the Commonwealth bombers are already cleared through.

[Froonp]

Look, I made this, that compares the Air to Air table with normal FTRs (top) and the one used by Orange circled & non night fighters fighting at night (bottom).

Edit (advised by Mziln) :
The top chart is used by all Non-orange circled fighters on day missions and all Night fighters on night missions.
The bottom chart is used by all Orange circled fighters fighting Non-orange circled fighters and all Non-night fighters on night missions.

[Froonp]

While I was digging my hard drive with something about US Entry Chits, I found this VERY interesting piece of statistic about the A2A table.

IMO it shows something highly interesting.
I'll try to show it using an example :

The German sends an air mission against the British, escorted by 1 FTR who has an air to air combat factor of 6.
The British can only intercept with 2 FTR with air to air combat factor of 5.

Well, the thing is, from the statistics below, that the British would be better advised to only send 1 FTR, fighting at +1/-1 (+1 for Germans) rather than send all their FTRs to fight at 0/0.

I explain :
Fighting at 0, or -1, the Brits have the same chance of letting the enemy bomber clear through : 36%. Clear through being the worst the Brits want to happen.
Fighting at 0, or +1, the Germans have the same chance of hurting the British fighters : 56%.

So, same chances of suffering losses, same chances of letting the enemy clear through, why send 2 planes.
By sparing 1 FTR, the British may well be able latter to intercept an enemy mission that he would not been able to intercept if he had sent both his FTRs in the first raid.

Indeed, fighting at -1 instead of 0 will have the Brits score more - (no effect), twice indeed. Scoring no effects is bad, as this let the chance to the enemy to live to fight for a further round.

So it may have bad effects, to be at -1 instead of 0, but if you're stranded and short of FTRs, and want to spare some to achieve air superiority somewhere in the future, you can try this.

[Froonp]

Same statistics for the fighters that achieve a lessened result (orange circled fighters, or non night fighters fighting at night).
They sucks.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Nice.

The point of controversy is whether the bottom table has:
1 - all red DX's (as in your picture),
2 - all orange DX's, or
3 - a mixture of orange DX's (-3, -2, -1, +1, +4, +8) and red DX's (0, +2, +6).

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Nice.

The point of controversy is whether the bottom table has:
1 - all red DX's (as in your picture),
2 - all orange DX's, or
3 - a mixture of orange DX's (-3, -2, -1, +1, +4, +8) and red DX's (0, +2, +6).

Yes, I know, but the first answers I got from the rules clarifications list are all in the same way, so I begin to have little doubt in Harry's answer to Q075 (I added that as Q075 in the list of questions).

The answers say that nowhere does the rule indicate that the losses of pilots are affected by the orange fighter rule, and the orange fighter rules only talks about lessening the text results, not the color ones, so I'm now nearly 100% convincted that it works that way, that's why I represented the table as I did.

I always wanted to have a visual representation (and the statistical analysis too) about these lessened results, and this question and this thread motivated me to do it.

[brian brian]

this is one part of the game I am looking forward to having the computer handle more than any other

[Mziln]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Look, I made this, that compares the Air to Air table with normal FTRs (top) and the one used by Orange circled & non night fighters fighting at night (bottom).

I understand your meaning but others may not. So just to clarify...


The top chart is used by all Non-orange circled fighters on day missions and all Night fighters on night missions.

The bottom chart is used by all Orange circled fighters on day missions and all Non-night fighters on night missions.



Non-orange circled fighters would be like the French Dewoitine D520s.

Orange circled non-night fighters would be like the German Messerschmitt Bf110c Zerstorer.

Orange circled night fighters would be like the U.S. Northrop P-61 Blackwidow.

[Frederyck]

Here is the same information copied from my own Excel. I cannot guarantee the accuracy of all the numbers as I haven't had these numbers checked by anyone else but myself. I find the percentages interesting however, and so might you.

[Frederyck]

Here is the normal chart with the same kind of percentages.

[composer99]

Since there are both 1-engine and twin-engine night fighters, I would suggest that twin-engine fighters, whether normal or night fighters, suffer the diminished results whatever time of day if they are fighting 1-engine fighters. 1-engine fighters only suffer the diminished results if they are normal fighters engaged in a2a combat at night.

Does that seem clear?

Edit: For example, the Defiants that the CW has in '39 (3 a2a factors) are 1-engine night fighters.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: composer99

Since there are both 1-engine and twin-engine night fighters, I would suggest that twin-engine fighters, whether normal or night fighters, suffer the diminished results whatever time of day if they are fighting 1-engine fighters. 1-engine fighters only suffer the diminished results if they are normal fighters engaged in a2a combat at night.

Does that seem clear?

Edit: For example, the Defiants that the CW has in '39 (3 a2a factors) are 1-engine night fighters.

RAW is :
******************************
Option 53: (Twin-engined fighters) In air-to-air combat during the day, all front fighters with an orange air-to-air rating achieve one result less than normal when the front enemy fighter in the combat does not have an orange air-to-air rating.

During air-to-air combat (see 14.3.2) at night, all aircraft except night fighters (those aircraft with a black circle around its air-to-air rating) achieves one result less than normal.
******************************

So a Ju88C (orange + night fighter) facing a Defiant (non orange + night fighter) would not suffer from disminished results when fighting at night.
But a Bf109E (non orange + non night fighter) facing a Defiant (non orange + night fighter) would suffer from disminished results when fighting at night.
And a Bf110D (orange + non night fighter) facing a Defiant (non orange + night fighter) would suffer from disminished results when fighting at night, but not because of being orange, because of not being a night fighter.

The WiF Zen for that IMO is that night fighting levels the differences between planes' flight characteristics and handling, and what is really predominant is whether the plane has detection abilities or not. A Ju88C is not very manoeuverable, that's why it is orange, so it suffers from lessened results during the day, but during the night its detection capabilities allow him to fight efficiently even if less manoeuverable.

[NeBert]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: composer99

Since there are both 1-engine and twin-engine night fighters, I would suggest that twin-engine fighters, whether normal or night fighters, suffer the diminished results whatever time of day if they are fighting 1-engine fighters. 1-engine fighters only suffer the diminished results if they are normal fighters engaged in a2a combat at night.

Does that seem clear?

Edit: For example, the Defiants that the CW has in '39 (3 a2a factors) are 1-engine night fighters.

RAW is :
******************************
Option 53: (Twin-engined fighters) In air-to-air combat during the day, all front fighters with an orange air-to-air rating achieve one result less than normal when the front enemy fighter in the combat does not have an orange air-to-air rating.

During air-to-air combat (see 14.3.2) at night, all aircraft except night fighters (those aircraft with a black circle around its air-to-air rating) achieves one result less than normal.
******************************

So a Ju88C (orange + night fighter) facing a Defiant (non orange + night fighter) would not suffer from disminished results when fighting at night.
But a Bf109E (non orange + non night fighter) facing a Defiant (non orange + night fighter) would suffer from disminished results when fighting at night.
And a Bf110D (orange + non night fighter) facing a Defiant (non orange + night fighter) would suffer from disminished results when fighting at night, but not because of being orange, because of not being a night fighter.

The WiF Zen for that IMO is that night fighting levels the differences between planes' flight characteristics and handling, and what is really predominant is whether the plane has detection abilities or not. A Ju88C is not very manoeuverable, that's why it is orange, so it suffers from lessened results during the day, but during the night its detection capabilities allow him to fight efficiently even if less manoeuverable.

Without knowing the detais of the rules for this topic I´d just like to add that Fighter Combats at night almost never happened (at least in the european theatre) for two reasons:
1. Bombers were not escorted until late war (1944?) by fighters so the defending night fighters only had to "fight" against the defense-weapons of the bombers (the biggest fight was to find and reach those bombers!)
2. It was almost impossible for night fighters to find each other until late war when allied NF had new RADAR with cm-waves and enough power to reach high airspeeds.

Even then (1944/45) the bombers itself were not escorted reguarly by NF. A2A-Combat happened when the german NF were attacked when they returned to their airbases.

I think that a game with such a large scale for the aircombat should not allow such in reality rare combats at all - just my opinion....

[Mziln]

14.2.3 Night missions (option 52) is an optional rule.

[NeBert]

ORIGINAL: Mziln

14.2.3 Night missions (option 52) is an optional rule.

Yes, sure! No need to choose it.

But still the A2A-Combat between FTR at night (also NFTR!) doesn´t make sense to me. Now you have to choose between option 52 = off (so no night mission at all) and a somehow unrealistic option.
Night bombing and defense by NFTR is not questioned at all!

Again, just my opinion [8D] ...

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: NeBert
Without knowing the detais of the rules for this topic I´d just like to add that Fighter Combats at night almost never happened (at least in the european theatre) for two reasons:
1. Bombers were not escorted until late war (1944?) by fighters so the defending night fighters only had to "fight" against the defense-weapons of the bombers (the biggest fight was to find and reach those bombers!)
2. It was almost impossible for night fighters to find each other until late war when allied NF had new RADAR with cm-waves and enough power to reach high airspeeds.

Even then (1944/45) the bombers itself were not escorted reguarly by NF. A2A-Combat happened when the german NF were attacked when they returned to their airbases.

I think that a game with such a large scale for the aircombat should not allow such in reality rare combats at all - just my opinion....

I think it happened at least over Britain in late 40 early 41 during the Blitz, where Germans sent Night Fighter raiders to disrupt the British Night Fighters job. I believe it also happened (but I am less sure) in the reverse way with Mosquito II night fighters patroling the European skies looking for German Night Fighters.

In WiF FE, it is ultimately rare too. I do not recall indeed such a fight.

About Night Fighting in WiF FE, there is something that we overlooked a long time in our games, and I'd like to share it with the people here, this is that non night fighters fighting at night suffer the lessened effect even against bombers, and also that bombers also suffer from that when returning fire at night.