BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another

[Sarge]

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

Wow you're an even bigger moron than I thought you were Sarge. What an IGMO. Wow just wow at his stupidity.

There is only one thing left to do since this is such a good an interesting thread (until the TROLL Sarge appeared that is notice he adds NOTHING to the TOPIC just attacking me again...what a moron). So, GREEN DOTTED YOU ARE SARGE...bye bye tah tah.

What is wrong with you, you ok RH [&:]

[ORANGE]

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

But what I'm saying is they should be. When are they going to say we can't enter a car until ID'd is next eh? lol Some stupid computerized camara on every car or some electronical identification system you have to scan your WRIST or PALM of your hand accross to enter your own car...it's coming you wait. I think some of it is already here.

BTW: I also have this old loon going through my garbage. I think he is harmless, he is just old and looking for useful stuff. I feel bad for him but is he invading my privacy? Should I take arms against him to show him I am not a sheep?

Believe it or not but rifling through or even taking your garbage is one of the EASIEST ways to steal your IDENTITY. That old loon may not be an old loon at all, but, some loon that sells any information he finds about you in your garbage to someone else who is looking for that sort of information. I hope you shread all your important and vital information that you throw away.

This is a slippery slope. You are not against something because it is wrong but because what might, and I emphasize might, come next might be wrong.

I can only discuss whether this is wrong or not. The possibilities of what might happen after that are endless.

[ORANGE]

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

Wow you're an even bigger moron than I thought you were Sarge. What an IGMO. Wow just wow at his stupidity.

There is only one thing left to do since this is such a good an interesting thread (until the TROLL Sarge appeared that is notice he adds NOTHING to the TOPIC just attacking me again...what a moron). So, GREEN DOTTED YOU ARE SARGE...bye bye tah tah.

I thought he asked a very good question and you just started calling him names. [&:]

[cdbeck]

HA! I love it when Americans (of which I am) assume that the US was, is, and shall be "more free" than old "oppressive" Europe. Let's not forget that the Revolution was begun by rich, property owners, long-distance merchants, who did not appreciate a distant monarch compromising their economic gains, property ownership, or hegemony over local politics (i.e. control over less well off colonists). For goodness sake, the Revolutionaries used the philosophy of John Locke as the basis of their grievances, the very same philosophy that will spawn Smithian economics, Ricardo's Iron Law of Wages (industrialists need to pay workers the lowest wages possible to prevent worker procreation and mini-Malthusian catastrophes), and Liberalism. Liberalism is just a way to get the masses to tacitly approve of being subject to an oligarchy of property owners and the wealthy (voting gives the illusion of power). Anyone who disagrees look at the lineage of the current president, the wealth of the president before him, and so on and so forth.

The Bill of Rights does NOT promise freedom, privacy, equality, happiness or anthing like that. The Declaration of Independence only states that men are CREATED equal, after birth they tend to diverge. In almost every instance the 10 Constitutional amendments that make up the Bill of Rights can be suspended, particularly by State governments and often in cases of security.

THIS IS BY DESIGN and not BY ACCIDENT. One can never trust the government, and... as V for Vendetta states, Governments should be afraid of their people and not vice versa. I prefer local government (i.e. State's Rights) more than Federal control... but only because it is easier to deal with, one can vote "with their feet" and more responsive to local needs and changes.

Ben Franklin had that famous line about "Those who would trade a little freedom for a little security deserves neither and typically loses both." Terrorism kills far fewer people than AIDS, poverty, or Car accidents - and certainly far fewer than the Nazis did. I would rather lose the security that enhanced IDs would bring in exchange for the modicum of privacy we have.

And RH, I don't believe that an Anti-Christ or Satan is necessary for these things to occur. If past events stand as a judge, humans do a good job of repression on their own. [8|]

SoM

[ravinhood]

ORIGINAL: ORANGE

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

Wow you're an even bigger moron than I thought you were Sarge. What an IGMO. Wow just wow at his stupidity.

There is only one thing left to do since this is such a good an interesting thread (until the TROLL Sarge appeared that is notice he adds NOTHING to the TOPIC just attacking me again...what a moron). So, GREEN DOTTED YOU ARE SARGE...bye bye tah tah.

I thought he asked a very good question and you just started calling him names. [&:]

You have 61 posts and you QUESTION ME!!?? haha you're green dotted as well then.

[ORANGE]

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

ORIGINAL: ORANGE

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

Wow you're an even bigger moron than I thought you were Sarge. What an IGMO. Wow just wow at his stupidity.

There is only one thing left to do since this is such a good an interesting thread (until the TROLL Sarge appeared that is notice he adds NOTHING to the TOPIC just attacking me again...what a moron). So, GREEN DOTTED YOU ARE SARGE...bye bye tah tah.

I thought he asked a very good question and you just started calling him names. [&:]

You have 61 posts and you QUESTION ME!!?? haha you're green dotted as well then.

If you read my post you may be able to barely grasp the fact that I did not question you. I only stated that he, and I meant Sarge, asked you a good question and you started calling him names.

I would just like to know the answer to his question. If you have none don't call him names.

[ravinhood]

And RH, I don't believe that an Anti-Christ or Satan is necessary for these things to occur. If past events stand as a judge, humans do a good job of repression on their own. [8|]

SoM

Oh I agree SOM I just find it interesting that someone wrote about something as such happening nearly 2000 years ago. The marks are here nothing can take that fact away. Big Brother is here and nothing can take that fact away either. I've always felt if there is any anti-christ it is all our governments. I just never understood paying someone else to tell me how to live and that's what we really do everywhere that has a government. Course I see it all as chaos desquised as democracy. Two major powers democratic or republican it really makes no difference which is controlling us, it's still control and it's still paying someone or a bunch of someones to tell us how we can live.  IDing all of us this way is just another step in total control. I can't believe I am the only one that sees this or one of the very few.

The Bill of Rights does NOT promise freedom, privacy, equality, happiness or anthing like that. The Declaration of Independence only states that men are CREATED equal, after birth they tend to diverge. In almost every instance the 10 Constitutional amendments that make up the Bill of Rights can be suspended, particularly by State go often in cases of security.

Modern day interpretations? Or is this what our forefathers REALLY Intended? I do not accept modern day interpretations. The wording is plain, it is simple and it at least then WAS easy to interpret. You have the right to privacy 4th amendment I believe and the pursuit of happiness and justice for all. What was not stated directly was understood indirectly as the right to be a private person. There were very few public records then. Hell you didn't have to have a drivers license to ride a horse or a horse and buggy now did you? You also didn't have to have a social security card either did you? But, as the beauracracy grew so too did IDing everyone grow. Then had to have that INCOME TAX and the only way to be sure of getting that was to number everyone. Oh they wisely called it social security, but, we all who see well know what it was for and is for today and will be for in the future. You didn't have to show some form of ID to get on a train either did you? Or ride on a Bus. No, this rediculous IDing system is just another form of control. I see it, too bad others don't.

[ORANGE]

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

And RH, I don't believe that an Anti-Christ or Satan is necessary for these things to occur. If past events stand as a judge, humans do a good job of repression on their own. [8|]

SoM

Oh I agree SOM I just find it interesting that someone wrote about something as such happening nearly 2000 years ago. The marks are here nothing can take that fact away. Big Brother is here and nothing can take that fact away either. I've always felt if there is any anti-christ it is all our governments. I just never understood paying someone else to tell me how to live and that's what we really do everywhere that has a government. Course I see it all as chaos desquised as democracy. Two major powers democratic or republican it really makes no difference which is controlling us, it's still control and it's still paying someone or a bunch of someones to tell us how we can live.  IDing all of us this way is just another step in total control. I can't believe I am the only one that sees this or one of the very few.

Because it is not a mature point of view. People do not pay the government to tell them what to do. They pay the government so they can have roads and law enforcement so they can raise families. They pay the government so that the food supply can be inspected and safe and for a water system that is cleaned. For sewage and garbage to be removed.

You believe in the Anti-christ because that is what all ignorant savages believed 5,000 years ago, that there was some evil boogey man out in the dark and if you did not say certain prayers or do certain things he would take you or yours before you wake.

[06 Maestro]

There were never more true words than "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely". The more power a government has, the more corrupt it will become. This is an obvious truth to me and anyone who has some desire to remain/become free. Without privacy, you are not free; at a minimum, you will be subject to (morally) unjustified interrogations or searches. Government must have strict limitations on it, or it will grow, and grow and grow. To justify government intrusion into an individuals privacy by listing other clearly required government functions (roads, national defense) is a bit disingenuous-at best.

It is pathetic how the general population becomes accustomed to new and intrusive laws. When the Social Security Act was passed, there were promises, in writing, that the social security number would never be required as an ID. What about the Recco Act (drastically expanded by the conservative hero R. Reagan). Had the U.S. government tried to pass our current laws 60 years ago (or before) I'm quite certain there would have been extreme violence by the general population-this is why they did not try this sixty years ago. These things need to be done slowly if you don't want to risk your neck. The best government is one that fears its law abiding citizens, not a government that treats the wishes of an overwhelming number of law its abiding citizens with contempt.

For those of you who have no need or understanding of liberty, don't fret-you are safe. Very soon the U.S. will soon have a communist president who will take care of your every need. Soon, mental health will be a "right". Remember, the government is tasked to make sure you have your "rights". On the bright side, you should not have to pay for your own shock treatments[:D]-maybe only 20% of total cost.

BTW, the implant chips are here, the readers are here, it's just a question of time before those are put to use. I'm sure those will be very convenient for consumers, but I will die before getting mine. I would expect that wonderful technology to be a smash hit in Europe or China before it makes it to the good old USA. I am not implying that all Europeans are more into total socialism than all Americans, after all, I live next to Kalifornia. However, it does seem obvious that most Europeans are more comfortable with the "nanny state".

[Ursa MAior]

ORIGINAL: Doggie

What's the point of having a secure driver's license when the government issues them to foreign criminals on demand?

A secure driver's license will do nothing to find illegal aliens when we simply give them away to anyone who asks.[8|]

That should be the point. Issue new ID's. Check the given data (what the person in question has provided to the authority) against other sources (say social security etc.). Should help to filter illegal immigrants etc.

IMHO it is NOT a constitutional right (at least in my country) to lie about the validity of my personnal data.

[morvwilson]

Ursa, there are two rules with the Federal Government over in USA.
1. If it makes sense, don't do it!
2. When in doubt, refer to rule #1.
 
Universal ID in the US, not likely to happen in the near future.
The rest of the discussion concerning imigration is probably too political for this forum.

[JudgeDredd]

[OFF TOPIC]
RH if you go on green dotting people because they question you, you might find these forums a lonely place pretty soon. I thought you had green dotted me because I apparently wouldn't let you have an opinion. The actual problem was that I countered your opinion and you pressed the green dot.

What the hell did you green dot Orange for? Because he thought Sarges question was a reasonable question? You are getting very silly now.
[ON TOPIC]

Orange, you are probably right....maybe it is not a fear of the "current" policy but more of "what might follow". But I fear the topic took a wider view after the initial post. Whilst that may seem irrational because, as you made clear, the possibilites could be endless, I think it's wise to raise your voice when things like this happen so the people in power realise that you understand the route this could be taking and you are less than happy about it.

I just got the impression from Ursa Maiors post that we should embrace big brother if we have nothing to fear, and I do not agree at all with that. I also want the government to hold as little information as possible about me. I do not believe I need to be spied on to be protected. As long as they are able to identify me, I'm fine...I understand the need for that. But I will not have my privacy invaded and, you bet, abused by a government. Even if I did trust the government in power at present, what about the governments that follow after.

Some clown that I wouldn't trust will eventually be voted in.

[JudgeDredd]

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro

There were never more true words than "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely". The more power a government has, the more corrupt it will become. This is an obvious truth to me and anyone who has some desire to remain/become free. Without privacy, you are not free; at a minimum, you will be subject to (morally) unjustified interrogations or searches. Government must have strict limitations on it, or it will grow, and grow and grow. To justify government intrusion into an individuals privacy by listing other clearly required government functions (roads, national defense) is a bit disingenuous-at best.

It is pathetic how the general population becomes accustomed to new and intrusive laws. When the Social Security Act was passed, there were promises, in writing, that the social security number would never be required as an ID. What about the Recco Act (drastically expanded by the conservative hero R. Reagan). Had the U.S. government tried to pass our current laws 60 years ago (or before) I'm quite certain there would have been extreme violence by the general population-this is why they did not try this sixty years ago. These things need to be done slowly if you don't want to risk your neck. The best government is one that fears its law abiding citizens, not a government that treats the wishes of an overwhelming number of law its abiding citizens with contempt.

For those of you who have no need or understanding of liberty, don't fret-you are safe. Very soon the U.S. will soon have a communist president who will take care of your every need. Soon, mental health will be a "right". Remember, the government is tasked to make sure you have your "rights". On the bright side, you should not have to pay for your own shock treatments[:D]-maybe only 20% of total cost.

BTW, the implant chips are here, the readers are here, it's just a question of time before those are put to use. I'm sure those will be very convenient for consumers, but I will die before getting mine. I would expect that wonderful technology to be a smash hit in Europe or China before it makes it to the good old USA. I am not implying that all Europeans are more into total socialism than all Americans, after all, I live next to Kalifornia. However, it does seem obvious that most Europeans are more comfortable with the "nanny state".

Good post and well put, Maestro.

My bold was just to assure you that I am not one of them.

[Ursa MAior]

ORIGINAL: morvwilson
Ursa, there are two rules with the Federal Government over in USA.
1. If it makes sense, don't do it!
2. When in doubt, refer to rule #1.

I see. Well this can be said of most organizations including marriages [;)].

IMHO we have unfortunately come to an age where individualism has reached such a high level in westrn democracies that even elected public servants think mostly of themselves and not the public they should be serving. So with authorization or without they (politicians) will do what they want. The situation in my country is far worse than in yours, but look closely cuz that is the way it will be.

In the US illegal federal eavesdropping gets to the light and causes public outcry, yet I bet it will continue due to 'security reasons'. In Europe it does not even go public yet it is there and will be there.

Edit
JD

Problem is you dont get to pick.

[ravinhood]

Very good post Maestro glad too see someone with some sense of the matter.

[JudgeDredd]

I wasn't sayin I could pick which state was a nanny state or not...I was saying I wasn't a European comfortable with the "nanny state"
 
RH
It makes me happy to know that I publicly apologised to you on this very forum, and you have a signature like you do. I envy your childhood. I guess it goes to show which one of us is more the man.

[Awac835]

I just had to login and say that i love these threads where Ravinhood takes on the rest of the board [:'(]
Its incredible to see how the same people fall into the same roles all the time.

But anyway back to topic. Imo europe do have a imigration problem, Between many of our countrys we have no border security. People can pass from one country to the other without any checks what so ever thx to the "Schengen Agreement". We are pretty much getting run over by organized gangs from eastern europe. Now with countrys like romania and bulgaria getting into this deal aswell i find a little disturbing. One thing is they countrys themself have easy access to europe, but they can also constitude a hole if they have relaxed border control to the outside world.

Another thing is the power invested in the goverment in the light of the "ever growing threat of terror"(or so they say). Tbh i think Ron Paul said it best in one of the GOP debates. "When you trade liberty for security you lose both". If you americans dont want him as president plz ship him on the first flight to Denmark, becouse i wouldnt mind having him over here.

[Ursa MAior]

JD
My bad. I wanted to say you dont get to choose whether you want a nanny state or not.

[JudgeDredd]

understood...but I still hold out some hope for democracy winning through. I haven't completely given up on the idea...so I'm hoping that peoples votes do count in the future and rationale will prevail.

[ORANGE]

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd


Orange, you are probably right....maybe it is not a fear of the "current" policy but more of "what might follow". But I fear the topic took a wider view after the initial post. Whilst that may seem irrational because, as you made clear, the possibilites could be endless, I think it's wise to raise your voice when things like this happen so the people in power realise that you understand the route this could be taking and you are less than happy about it.

I just got the impression from Ursa Maiors post that we should embrace big brother if we have nothing to fear, and I do not agree at all with that. I also want the government to hold as little information as possible about me. I do not believe I need to be spied on to be protected. As long as they are able to identify me, I'm fine...I understand the need for that. But I will not have my privacy invaded and, you bet, abused by a government. Even if I did trust the government in power at present, what about the governments that follow after.

Some clown that I wouldn't trust will eventually be voted in.

JudgeDredd,

It is natural to fear what follows, or the unknown, and worry. I remember a few years back after one of those blockbuster movies that people were scared that an asteroid would hit the earth and they would die. It is possible that this could happen but in our small lifetimes the chances are very small. People fear what the future will bring because it is an unknown.

I see people concerned about illegal immigration and complaining that nothing is being done. Then when something like building a fence or national ID’s are brought into the debate the government is becoming Big Brother. The ID itself is not a bad idea IMHO. It seems inevitable to me and will eventually come to pass. The people seem to be demanding things that make this practical. The people seem to be driving the need for it but not the actual card.

Holding as little information as possible seems to be a broad classification and open to many interpretations. For instance when you retire you may want to get that social security money you paid in. You may also not some guy who just walks over the border to get benefits. To do this the government has to keep records on you. That is just one instance. I am not sure that this card will authorize huge databases to be created to track everything you do. This seems to me just the next logical step. We live in an automated world and people expect quick results.

This card to me seems less intrusive than the information that a Credit Card company already gathers and in some cases sells. People just do not like the government on principal. All the cool kids hate the government and I want to be cool so I will hate the government too. [:)]