BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another

Gamers can also use this forum to chat about any game related subject, news, rumours etc.

Moderator: maddog986

User avatar
ORANGE
Posts: 198
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2007 1:09 am

RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another

Post by ORANGE »

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior
ORIGINAL: morvwilson
Ursa, there are two rules with the Federal Government over in USA.
1. If it makes sense, don't do it!
2. When in doubt, refer to rule #1.

I see. Well this can be said of most organizations including marriages [;)].

IMHO we have unfortunately come to an age where individualism has reached such a high level in westrn democracies that even elected public servants think mostly of themselves and not the public they should be serving. So with authorization or without they (politicians) will do what they want. The situation in my country is far worse than in yours, but look closely cuz that is the way it will be.

In the US illegal federal eavesdropping gets to the light and causes public outcry, yet I bet it will continue due to 'security reasons'. In Europe it does not even go public yet it is there and will be there.

Edit
JD

Problem is you dont get to pick.

I do not think that the US is following Hungary and in my small minded way I would much rather have Hispanics coming illegally into my country than godless communist hoards who had religion beaten out of them for 40+ years.

I find I have more in common with our Hispanic immigrants who like to work than I do with people who lived in a socialist system that rewarded the monkey who pushed the right button and lacks morals.
Image
User avatar
06 Maestro
Posts: 3997
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:50 pm
Location: Nevada, USA

RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another

Post by 06 Maestro »

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

ORIGINAL: Doggie

What's the point of having a secure driver's license when the government issues them to foreign criminals on demand?

A secure driver's license will do nothing to find illegal aliens when we simply give them away to anyone who asks.[8|]

That should be the point. Issue new ID's. Check the given data (what the person in question has provided to the authority) against other sources (say social security etc.). Should help to filter illegal immigrants etc.

IMHO it is NOT a constitutional right (at least in my country) to lie about the validity of my personnal data.




No, the point is that the government will not enforce the current laws, utilize current ID methods, but they still want another method to acquire information about the actual law abiding citizens. This is an old government game, come up with what seems to be a real problem to allow further erosion of rights.

In Nevada, USA, we are having our primary election next week. ID will no longer be required at the Democrat caucuses stations. (We just swathed to the caucus system-this should be fun[8|]) So, illegals will be able to vote-and actually have been doing so for 15 years in numbers large enough to drive out American Pols and replace them with Mexicans. The US government apparently thinks this is a good thing-it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out why that would be.

It's all about the money, brothers-sovereign nations are passé. They just don't have the balls to come right out and say it -yet. The US government has enough legal power to do the job-it does not need anymore. No doubt I would be shocked to hear about the government power in other "free" country's.



Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies.

Thomas Jefferson

User avatar
ORANGE
Posts: 198
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2007 1:09 am

RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another

Post by ORANGE »

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro
No, the point is that the government will not enforce the current laws, utilize current ID methods, but they still want another method to acquire information about the actual law abiding citizens. This is an old government game, come up with what seems to be a real problem to allow further erosion of rights.

In Nevada, USA, we are having our primary election next week. ID will no longer be required at the Democrat caucuses stations. (We just swathed to the caucus system-this should be fun[8|]) So, illegals will be able to vote-and actually have been doing so for 15 years in numbers large enough to drive out American Pols and replace them with Mexicans. The US government apparently thinks this is a good thing-it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out why that would be.

It's all about the money, brothers-sovereign nations are passé. They just don't have the balls to come right out and say it -yet. The US government has enough legal power to do the job-it does not need anymore. No doubt I would be shocked to hear about the government power in other "free" country's.
What power does a national ID card give the government.

Also you are upset about ID not being required to vote and then cry about an ID system that could help this. This way you can either cry if nothing gets done at all or if something does get done. Brilliant! [&o]
Image
User avatar
06 Maestro
Posts: 3997
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:50 pm
Location: Nevada, USA

RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another

Post by 06 Maestro »

ORIGINAL: ORANGE

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro
No, the point is that the government will not enforce the current laws, utilize current ID methods, but they still want another method to acquire information about the actual law abiding citizens. This is an old government game, come up with what seems to be a real problem to allow further erosion of rights.

In Nevada, USA, we are having our primary election next week. ID will no longer be required at the Democrat caucuses stations. (We just swathed to the caucus system-this should be fun[8|]) So, illegals will be able to vote-and actually have been doing so for 15 years in numbers large enough to drive out American Pols and replace them with Mexicans. The US government apparently thinks this is a good thing-it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out why that would be.

It's all about the money, brothers-sovereign nations are passé. They just don't have the balls to come right out and say it -yet. The US government has enough legal power to do the job-it does not need anymore. No doubt I would be shocked to hear about the government power in other "free" country's.
What power does a national ID card give the government.

Also you are upset about ID not being required to vote and then cry about an ID system that could help this. This way you can either cry if nothing gets done at all or if something does get done. Brilliant! [&o]

I'm am simply pointing out the stupidity of giving any additional power to a government that will not perform its duties which it already has more than enough authority to carry out. Dummy's and cowards will bend over for them tail the day they die-that's how they are, right?
Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies.

Thomas Jefferson

Reiryc
Posts: 1091
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:00 am

RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another

Post by Reiryc »

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

understood...but I still hold out some hope for democracy winning through. I haven't completely given up on the idea...so I'm hoping that peoples votes do count in the future and rationale will prevail.

In my opinion, democracy is the problem.

Democracy is little more than mob rule and is unfortunately, susceptible to the emotions and extremes of that mob.

I prefer what the US constitution originally set up, which was a republic. The republic had checks on democracy in order that it wouldn't overwhelm good sense over the emotions of the day. We had our house of reps directly elected by the people - semi democracy. Our senators however, were appointed by state legislators. This then, gave the states a say in how the federal government was run and moving the democracy aspect down. Senators didn't represent the people directly -- this was for the house members to do, but rather they were to represent the states from which they came from. Each state also only received 2 senators regardless of their population size unlike the house which does represent the population size of each state, thus insuring that the majority can't necessarily oppress the minority.

When it comes to electing a president, we do so with electors from each state. Each states decides how these electors will vote -- winner in the state gets all electoral votes, proportional representation in which the electors are divided according to the percentage of popular votes, or even allowing the electors to ignore the population and vote for who they think is the best candidate. Thus allowing for a president to be elected even if he doesn't have the majority popular vote but does have the majority of the electoral vote. This helps make sure the president is the president of the entire US not just the populous states of the US.

Sadly, we have removed one of the checks by making senators elected through a popular vote and our level of socialism has increased steadily since -- along with other factors of course.

Image
Reiryc
Posts: 1091
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:00 am

RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another

Post by Reiryc »

ORIGINAL: ORANGE


This card to me seems less intrusive than the information that a Credit Card company already gathers and in some cases sells. People just do not like the government on principal. All the cool kids hate the government and I want to be cool so I will hate the government too. [:)]

Nah... I hate the government (for among other reasons) because it has the monopoly on force. Disagree with the credit card company's final decision on an issue involving you and you can go to court over the issue to seek a remedy. Disagree with the government's final decision on an issue involving you and you will go to jail, then you can try to remedy the issue in court.


Image
User avatar
ORANGE
Posts: 198
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2007 1:09 am

RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another

Post by ORANGE »

ORIGINAL: Reiryc
Nah... I hate the government (for among other reasons) because it has the monopoly on force. Disagree with the credit card company's final decision on an issue involving you and you can go to court over the issue to seek a remedy. Disagree with the government's final decision on an issue involving you and you will go to jail, then you can try to remedy the issue in court.


This is a half truth presented as a fact. In not all cases do you even go to jail once the final decision has been made and the courts are the government.

The issues that credit card companies have with people are hardly the kind that entail jail time for public safety so your example seems to me to be more of a way to justify what you want to think than an actual reason to think it.
Image
Reiryc
Posts: 1091
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:00 am

RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another

Post by Reiryc »

ORIGINAL: ORANGE

ORIGINAL: Reiryc
Nah... I hate the government (for among other reasons) because it has the monopoly on force. Disagree with the credit card company's final decision on an issue involving you and you can go to court over the issue to seek a remedy. Disagree with the government's final decision on an issue involving you and you will go to jail, then you can try to remedy the issue in court.


This is a half truth presented as a fact. In not all cases do you even go to jail once the final decision has been made and the courts are the government.

This was a fact in the types of cases in which one is sent to jail.

There was no half truth about it. I never stated that in all cases does one go to jail. However, in all cases, a credit card company can not put one in jail, but a government can.
The issues that credit card companies have with people are hardly the kind that entail jail time for public safety so your example seems to me to be more of a way to justify what you want to think than an actual reason to think it.

Actually one can go to jail for defrauding a credit card company.

The issues that credit card companies have with people can and at times do entail jail time. It seems to me be that you were more concerned with what you want to think than the actual reasons presented.



Recent example of jail time for credit card fraud:


Credit card fraud earns travel agent 10 years

By Mike Allen

Wednesday, January 09, 2008

FINCASTLE -- Just before Christmas 2006, Jim Jamison discovered his travel agent had charged $1,000 to his credit cards without his knowledge.

He called Donnie Hudgins to complain, saying he needed the money to buy presents for his grandchildren. Hudgins refunded only half the money.

As for the remaining $500, "I never got it back," Jamison testified.

Jamison wasn't Hudgins' only victim. Tuesday in Botetourt County Circuit Court, Judge Malfourd "Bo" Trumbo sentenced Hudgins to 10 years in prison, suspended after he serves three months in jail, for five convictions of credit card fraud. He also gave Hudgins 50 hours of community service.

Hudgins paid more than $5,200 in restitution for the crimes, but Botetourt County Commonwealth's Attorney Joel Branscom said that was just a fraction of the money lost through Hudgins' company, Botetourt Travel and Tours. Investigators estimated that Hudgins' customers lost more than $100,000 on trips that never happened, the prosecutor said.

The Botetourt County Sheriff's Office began investigating Hudgins in May 2006 after receiving complaints from customers who paid for a fishing trip to Alaska that was canceled. The investigation revealed that Hudgins was taking customers' money for prepaid trips and spending it on other things, then trying to pay for previously booked trips with the next person's money, according to previous court testimony.

However, while most of the losses resulted from what Branscom described as reckless business practices, Hudgins crossed the line into illegal acts when he made unauthorized charges to customers' credit cards, the prosecutor said.

Hudgins, 60, took the stand in his own defense, saying he never intended to defraud his customers. When business started going bad, he began juggling funds in hopes he could catch up, he said.

Branscom noted that Hudgins continued his reckless business practices even after he knew he was under investigation.

Hudgins pleaded no contest in July to six felonies. Branscom dropped one of those counts Tuesday.

After the hearing, Jamison said he was glad Hudgins received jail time. "So many people have been hurt," he said. "He needed to feel some of the pain that we have."

http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/146372
Image
User avatar
ORANGE
Posts: 198
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2007 1:09 am

RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another

Post by ORANGE »

ORIGINAL: Reiryc

ORIGINAL: ORANGE

ORIGINAL: Reiryc
Nah... I hate the government (for among other reasons) because it has the monopoly on force. Disagree with the credit card company's final decision on an issue involving you and you can go to court over the issue to seek a remedy. Disagree with the government's final decision on an issue involving you and you will go to jail, then you can try to remedy the issue in court.


This is a half truth presented as a fact. In not all cases do you even go to jail once the final decision has been made and the courts are the government.

This was a fact in the types of cases in which one is sent to jail.

There was no half truth about it. I never stated that in all cases does one go to jail. However, in all cases, a credit card company can not put one in jail, but a government can.
The issues that credit card companies have with people are hardly the kind that entail jail time for public safety so your example seems to me to be more of a way to justify what you want to think than an actual reason to think it.

Actually one can go to jail for defrauding a credit card company.

The issues that credit card companies have with people can and at times do entail jail time. It seems to me be that you were more concerned with what you want to think than the actual reasons presented.



Recent example of jail time for credit card fraud:


Credit card fraud earns travel agent 10 years

By Mike Allen

Wednesday, January 09, 2008

FINCASTLE -- Just before Christmas 2006, Jim Jamison discovered his travel agent had charged $1,000 to his credit cards without his knowledge.

He called Donnie Hudgins to complain, saying he needed the money to buy presents for his grandchildren. Hudgins refunded only half the money.

As for the remaining $500, "I never got it back," Jamison testified.

Jamison wasn't Hudgins' only victim. Tuesday in Botetourt County Circuit Court, Judge Malfourd "Bo" Trumbo sentenced Hudgins to 10 years in prison, suspended after he serves three months in jail, for five convictions of credit card fraud. He also gave Hudgins 50 hours of community service.

Hudgins paid more than $5,200 in restitution for the crimes, but Botetourt County Commonwealth's Attorney Joel Branscom said that was just a fraction of the money lost through Hudgins' company, Botetourt Travel and Tours. Investigators estimated that Hudgins' customers lost more than $100,000 on trips that never happened, the prosecutor said.

The Botetourt County Sheriff's Office began investigating Hudgins in May 2006 after receiving complaints from customers who paid for a fishing trip to Alaska that was canceled. The investigation revealed that Hudgins was taking customers' money for prepaid trips and spending it on other things, then trying to pay for previously booked trips with the next person's money, according to previous court testimony.

However, while most of the losses resulted from what Branscom described as reckless business practices, Hudgins crossed the line into illegal acts when he made unauthorized charges to customers' credit cards, the prosecutor said.

Hudgins, 60, took the stand in his own defense, saying he never intended to defraud his customers. When business started going bad, he began juggling funds in hopes he could catch up, he said.

Branscom noted that Hudgins continued his reckless business practices even after he knew he was under investigation.

Hudgins pleaded no contest in July to six felonies. Branscom dropped one of those counts Tuesday.

After the hearing, Jamison said he was glad Hudgins received jail time. "So many people have been hurt," he said. "He needed to feel some of the pain that we have."

http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/146372
WOW! I did not mean to get you so riled up. [:o] You said disagree with the government's final decision on an issue involving you and you will go to jail which is not true in every case. Probably not true in the majority of cases. Will is a pretty strong word used here because it is not true in all cases.

The issues cthat credit card companies have involve civil court and they cannot, and should not, have the power to jail. The government does that. The kinds of problems people have with credit card companies are the kind where people are released on bail until their court date then if you are convicted you may be sent to jail.
Image
Reiryc
Posts: 1091
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:00 am

RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another

Post by Reiryc »

ORIGINAL: ORANGE

WOW! I did not mean to get you so riled up. [:o]

The tone was a bit strong in your reply...
You said disagree with the government's final decision on an issue involving you and you will go to jail which is not true in every case.

I never said it happened in every case. Do you honestly think I believe one goes to jail over a jay walking ticket? The point was that the government holds the monopoly on the kind of force that can put one in jail whereas a credit card company can not.



Image
User avatar
ORANGE
Posts: 198
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2007 1:09 am

RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another

Post by ORANGE »

ORIGINAL: Reiryc

ORIGINAL: ORANGE

WOW! I did not mean to get you so riled up. [:o]

The tone was a bit strong in your reply...
You said disagree with the government's final decision on an issue involving you and you will go to jail which is not true in every case.

I never said it happened in every case. Do you honestly think I believe one goes to jail over a jay walking ticket? The point was that the government holds the monopoly on the kind of force that can put one in jail whereas a credit card company can not.



Well I think the words will go to jail are pretty clear. I just had to question it becauase it was not true and a lie told often enoug can be believed as if it were true. The government is not the jack booted thugs that will send you to prison for jay walking.
Image
Reiryc
Posts: 1091
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:00 am

RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another

Post by Reiryc »

ORIGINAL: ORANGE
Well I think the words will go to jail are pretty clear. I just had to question it becauase it was not true and a lie told often enoug can be believed as if it were true. The government is not the jack booted thugs that will send you to prison for jay walking.

Yep, it is clear in the context given. It's too bad you chose not to read it in that context. It seems, that you're more concerned with justifying what you want to think than an actual reason to think it. "The government is not the jack booted thugs that will send you to prison for jay walking."





Image
User avatar
ORANGE
Posts: 198
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2007 1:09 am

RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another

Post by ORANGE »

ORIGINAL: Reiryc
ORIGINAL: ORANGE
Well I think the words will go to jail are pretty clear. I just had to question it becauase it was not true and a lie told often enoug can be believed as if it were true. The government is not the jack booted thugs that will send you to prison for jay walking.

Yep, it is clear in the context given. It's too bad you chose not to read it in that context. It seems, that you're more concerned with justifying what you want to think than an actual reason to think it. "The government is not the jack booted thugs that will send you to prison for jay walking."
I do not think it says what you are trying to change it to say.

It is a simple and broad statement. You said disagree with the government's final decision on an issue involving you and you will go to jail, then you can try to remedy the issue in court. That is clear. Then you defended it a response later and now are trying to change it. [:-]
Image
Reiryc
Posts: 1091
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:00 am

RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another

Post by Reiryc »

ORIGINAL: ORANGE





I do not think it says what you are trying to change it to say.

I know, I already established that.
It is a simple and broad statement. You said disagree with the government's final decision on an issue involving you and you will go to jail, then you can try to remedy the issue in court.
[/quote]

Indeed, have you ever not followed a court's final ruling? Guess what happens? A warrant is issued and you go to jail.


Image
User avatar
ORANGE
Posts: 198
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2007 1:09 am

RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another

Post by ORANGE »

ORIGINAL: Reiryc

Indeed, have you ever not followed a court's final ruling? Guess what happens? A warrant is issued and you go to jail.
Even for jay walking?
Image
User avatar
Sarge
Posts: 2197
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2003 7:46 am
Location: ask doggie

RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another

Post by Sarge »

[center]Fourth Amendment[/center]
“The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized”



Reiryc
Posts: 1091
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:00 am

RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another

Post by Reiryc »

ORIGINAL: ORANGE


Even for jay walking?

Yes, if you are convicted of jay walking and you do not pay the fine or whatever the penalty is, a warrant for your arrest will be issued.
Image
User avatar
ORANGE
Posts: 198
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2007 1:09 am

RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another

Post by ORANGE »

ORIGINAL: Reiryc
ORIGINAL: ORANGE
Well I think the words will go to jail are pretty clear. I just had to question it becauase it was not true and a lie told often enoug can be believed as if it were true. The government is not the jack booted thugs that will send you to prison for jay walking.

Yep, it is clear in the context given. It's too bad you chose not to read it in that context. It seems, that you're more concerned with justifying what you want to think than an actual reason to think it. "The government is not the jack booted thugs that will send you to prison for jay walking."
It is clear you have an unwarranted fear of the government. That is what I got from your context. If the government is so evil why live here?
Image
Reiryc
Posts: 1091
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:00 am

RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another

Post by Reiryc »

ORIGINAL: ORANGE
It is clear you have an unwarranted fear of the government. That is what I got from your context. If the government is so evil why live here?

Nah, this is just one of the areas in which you only see what you want to see...as already pointed out, "It seems, that you're more concerned with justifying what you want to think than an actual reason to think it."


Image
Ursa MAior
Posts: 1414
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:10 am
Location: Hungary, EU

RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another

Post by Ursa MAior »

ORIGINAL: ORANGE
I do not think that the US is following Hungary and in my small minded way I would much rather have Hispanics coming illegally into my country than godless communist hoards who had religion beaten out of them for 40+ years.

I find I have more in common with our Hispanic immigrants who like to work than I do with people who lived in a socialist system that rewarded the monkey who pushed the right button and lacks morals.

Thanks for sharing your views with me.
There are a few points in which you are wrong so please let me take the chance to clarify it.

1. Not everybody in a communist state was communist. In fact it was seen as a kind of privilege (and indeed the party members had more rights than averge citizens). Here we had less than 10% of the population was party member and onyl half of it really atheist. [;)]
We had worse statistics here than in Poland where some 90% of the population was religious even under the commies. I remember participating in the Taize youth meeting in Wroclaw in 1998 (IIRC) I have seen not a single policeman onyl traffic controllers.

2. Communism is dead since some 20+ yrs since after 1986 we were living in a state controlled capitalism.

3. Due to the commies the civil society is powerless, so what I meant that zaibatsus ie mega corporations play a much higher role here than in other western countries. And it looks like the future heads in htis way. The central gvot so despised by most of you is becoming more and more powerless and these zaibatsus take over its place.
In eastern europe it will take some 10+ yrs before they consume the politicians, in other western countries it will be some 15+20 yrs.
Image
Art by the amazing Dixie
Post Reply

Return to “General Discussion”