Change Request - GB and France Move Order Selection

[DCWhitworth]

I have a suggestion for consideration as a forthcoming improvement.

Would it be possible to move the French and British move order selection from the Diplomatic to the Reinforcement phase ?

The ability of France and Great Britain to change their position in the Land and Naval phases respectively is a major weapon, allowing them to launch a surprise attack, react quickly or take a double move by careful manipulation of their position. Britain for instance, if declared war on, will often select to move *before* the declaring nation in the Naval Phase so as to immediately blockade their fleets.

However, putting this selection in the Diplomatic Phase means they must select *before* they are sure of who they will be at war with that turn.

[argaur]

Good point

[fvianello]

That's what happens when you decide to use up all you bar the night before [:o]

[AndrewV]

I agree.

In addition to the case of a new DOW, if combined movement is ever implemented, France and GB may want to know who is moving combined before deciding when they wish to move.

[pzgndr]

Yes good point.  Regarding move order change, I note for France at least when I changed its move order it stayed that way in subsequent turns until I manually changed it back.  I assumed the move order change would be for the current turn only, as a special exception.  This isn't a big deal but maybe something for reconsideration if the move order selection changes to the Reinforcement phase.

[DCWhitworth]

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

Yes good point.  Regarding move order change, I note for France at least when I changed its move order it stayed that way in subsequent turns until I manually changed it back.  I assumed the move order change would be for the current turn only, as a special exception.  This isn't a big deal but maybe something for reconsideration if the move order selection changes to the Reinforcement phase.

Actually I much prefer it the way it is. Usually you will be changing your move order for more than just a turn.

e.g. As France I am moving last. I decide to take a double turn against someone I am at war with so I change my move to be before theirs in the land phase. Most likely I will now want to keep it there for the rest of the war or they will get a double move back. If I have to keep manually reentering the move order change every turn then I'm sure I'll forget at some point.

[pzgndr]

Most likely I will now want to keep it there for the rest of the war or they will get a double move back.

I don't quite follow. GB normally moves first in the naval phase and France moves first in the land phase. You change the order for the current turn, essentially a disadvantage where you are giving your opponent the double move now, so that you (GB or France) get the upcoming double move. But if you forget to manually reset the order again, it's more likely you may fail to gain the advantage you were shooting for in the first place.

I didn't realize this the first few times I tried it. I'm just saying, for me, it's counter-intuitive. I would expect it to be a special exception to the normal move order for the current turn only and then things automatically revert back to normal unless the player takes action again.

[DCWhitworth]

OK by default the game starts with GB and France moving first. Pretty much the very first thing I would do as either of those nations is set myself to move last. In the boardgames I have played this is how France and GB conventionally play - move last.

Then during a war, my opponent moves first in a turn, but then the next turn I have the option of changing my move order to move before them, thus getting two movement phases before they get another one.

But this is a one shot thing, I can't perform another double move without giving my opponent one first so most likely I will wait until the end of the war before changing to moving last again.

[pzgndr]

Pretty much the very first thing I would do as either of those nations is set myself to move last.

This makes sense. So why not change the default move order so that GB moves last in the naval phase and France moves last in the land phase, then making a change in move order could become a special exception? That would seem more intuitive.

[Geekboy]

ORIGINAL: DCWhitworth

But this is a one shot thing, I can't perform another double move without giving my opponent one first so most likely I will wait until the end of the war before changing to moving last again.

The difference is that when, as France or GB, you have a double move, you do so by your choice, planning and when it's to your advantage.

When you give your opponents a double, they get a move, and then they get another without (necessarily) expecting it and at a time of your choosing.

I wont claim to do it all the time, sometimes it's just not possible, but I always have an eye open for getting back to moving last.




But to get back to the original post...Yes, the reinforcement phase would be a better time to select when in the turn you move.

[dodod]

I disagree...
 
This game is already set up for multiple advantages for France.  I think if France has this capacity, or England, they have to commit to deciding when their move is.  The game becomes incredibly easy for them if they choose their move AFTER they know the diplomacy.  The only defense Prussia, Austria, Spanish Navy, Russian navy have is that they may actually declare war and move.
 
Why does everyone want more advantages for the more powerful countries?
 
Napoleon's rating can't go down, France can't be taken off dominance, unrealistic (although true to the board game) free state corp can move 4 for france?  why?  they are the free state's corp? how is it realistic that their movement would increase if with france??
 
Ugh

[gwheelock]

ORIGINAL: dodod



Napoleon's rating can't go down, France can't be taken off dominance, unrealistic (although true to the board game) free state corp can move 4 for france?  why?  they are the free state's corp? how is it realistic that their movement would increase if with france??

Ugh

The rationalization for French movement wasn't that Pfc Joe Le'Schmoe could run
faster than anybody else; it was that France had a superior logistics system
(ie. the troops didn't have to stop & steal chickens from EVERY farm they passed).
It would be rational for them to extend this system to controled minor corp
- which WOULD justify the increase in movement.

[zaquex]

ORIGINAL: DCWhitworth

OK by default the game starts with GB and France moving first. Pretty much the very first thing I would do as either of those nations is set myself to move last. In the boardgames I have played this is how France and GB conventionally play - move last.

In the 1805 campaign this is very much true for France, its winter neither Prussia or Austria has the money to start an expensive wintercampaign and russia is so far away that a dubble move wont matter much at all. For GB the situation is completly different you definatly want to move first. The last thing you want to see is the mighty english fleet blockaded by a combined French/Spanish fleet it would very likely mean hostile troops in England and emminent disaster, you dont want to start with an unconditional surrender within 6 months.

But this is a one shot thing, I can't perform another double move without giving my opponent one first so most likely I will wait until the end of the war before changing to moving last again.

There is often strategic situations or winter phases where you easily can afford to give you enemy a double move. In winter your enemy move two areas tops and movement in winter is usually expensive. As you reach March you can do a 2x4 move or a crushing double attack worth 10 times more.

[delatbabel]

ORIGINAL: DCWhitworth

In the 1805 campaign this is very much true for France, its winter neither Prussia or Austria has the money to start an expensive wintercampaign and russia is so far away that a dubble move wont matter much at all. For GB the situation is completly different you definatly want to move first. The last thing you want to see is the mighty english fleet blockaded by a combined French/Spanish fleet it would very likely mean hostile troops in England and emminent disaster, you dont want to start with an unconditional surrender within 6 months.

If you are GB and you haven't set up your fleets in the enemy blockade boxes to start with (yes, you are allowed to do this) then you are a dunce and deserve to lose.

[zaquex]

If you know spain is on "your" side its all good. If you have any doubts, move first. GB really have to strain itself to keep both the french and the spanish fleet under control and i wouldnt want to start in any spanish blockade boxes. It's a provocation that can mean a hostile instead of a friendly spanjard. With the starting move you will at least be able to react if he have choosen the "wrong" path.
 
In any case I withhold that switching to last move in first diplo phase is a dangerous gamble, you have plenty of time to change ur move once you are sure that any threats are contained.
 
If the change suggested by the op is implemented much of this problem goes away and I think its more true to the original game.

[praem]

If the choice of movement order was moved to reinforcements, it sould be closer to the boardgame, where the choice was made in the naval/land phase respectively. It is a major advantage for France and GB.
 
As for GB seting up in Spanish Blocade box. That is only possible if a state of prewar excist. If not, GB should always blocade the French fleet and keep a reserve force - by moving first she is unable to deal with fleets gone to sea until after the land phase, so i would always choose to move last even if Spain DoW GB - the Spaish corps is not nearly as dangerous as the French any way and so it is not as bad to have 2-3 spanish corps in the isles.

[Jimmer]

It's pretty much a given that France and GB both want to go last in their respective phases MOST of the time. When they want to change, it should be by careful thought.
 
I think the way to solve this issue is to:
 
1)  Have the default setup be "last", rather than first.
2)  Anytime a value other than "last" is in place, prompt the user if they want to change it.
 
I really don't want to be prompted every turn, but if it prompted me every turn that I wasn't at the default value, that would be excellent.
 
If the above were implemented, then the game could offer one other choice: The ability to change the "default" going forward (for the rest of the CURRENT game -- not others).