Modeling of Carrier Battles

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Big B
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RE: Modeling of Carrier Battles

Post by Big B »

I have not been participating on the forums for quite some time - for entirely personal reasons. But as JWE alluded, sometimes I check in and read for mild distraction.

I'll take the bait here and ask -

While I will gladly concede the obvious - that there are a great many things the US Military cannot do - due to political restraints and moral will.... I am at a loss to see US Air Power being "routinely defeated" anywhere...at least in the military understanding of the term "defeated".

El cid - care to expound on that?
ORIGINAL: JWE
ORIGINAL: TheElf

ORIGINAL: el cid again
We are "routinely" being defeated in air combat by third world air forces - according to Norman Polmar in the Proceedings (October I think)
In the quiet words of the Virgin Mary...Come again?

When it gets this bizarre, I usually take a break, retire to the bar, get a cold one, and watch the fun from a comfy chair on the veranda. Sometimes the BS has me in stitches for days.

BTW, how was the Scotch?
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witpqs
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RE: Modeling of Carrier Battles

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: el cid again
That is the Navy way - give me what I need - or I will rub your nose in it until I get it.

I'm sure that the CO of that ship could have gotten what he demanded had he only handled the US Congress that way... [8|]
el cid again
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RE: Modeling of Carrier Battles

Post by el cid again »

ORIGINAL: TheElf

ORIGINAL: el cid again
We are "routinely" being defeated in air combat by third world air forces - according to Norman Polmar in the Proceedings (October I think)
In the quiet words of the Virgin Mary...Come again?

This is the wrong place for this - but we routinely play games - and in the past we could and would defeat all comers. Apparently this is no longer the case - and we usually lose. This seems in the same league as not caring for our limited number of CVAs - the sort of thing officers in charge should be addressing - and demanding resources for if they lack them. If it is indeed endemic - then the USN has gone the way of USAF - where no one who rocks the boat ever gets to Lt Col. Contrast this with USMC - or even the US Army of late - where a different attitude is cultivated - and where you are expected to go along only when things are acceptable.
el cid again
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RE: Modeling of Carrier Battles

Post by el cid again »

ORIGINAL: witpqs
ORIGINAL: el cid again
That is the Navy way - give me what I need - or I will rub your nose in it until I get it.

I'm sure that the CO of that ship could have gotten what he demanded had he only handled the US Congress that way... [8|]

You don't understand our system. If it is critical - and one of only 12 (now to be 11 or 10 because of unplanned issues)
CVAs is critical - JCS does NOT need to even consult Congress. They have emergency funding. You order the (whatever) and the fund is automatically refilled next period (4 weeks or less) - and if needs be you do it again. When we needed new equipment to defeat ASCMs in 1968 - CNO Adm Thomas Moorer took a tiny team of specialists and said:

"Normally we need 10 to 15 years to develop a new system and tactics, and implement everything so it works properly. We only have about 5 months. So we are not going to do it the normal way. You can have anything in the Navy. You can have anyone in the Navy. You can have anything the Navy can buy. But I don't want one missile to hit our ships." [Nary a word about proposals of any sort - or waiting for funding: we didn't even wait for HIS approval - he gave us a dispersing clerk to cut checks - and no guidelines about how much was too much. We never found out either. Whatever we wanted we got.]

Not long afterward I learned of a wierd "activity" - a bunch of civilians under a Navy Captain called Pacific Missile Range.
They tracked missiles - for the USAF of all institutions - but it was Navy because they did it over the ocean. Anyway - they (unionized civilian operators) were too lazy to use military gear which required hand operation - so they had contracted to have a new kind of semi-automated interecept gear. [The gear was to look for pirate radar stations for the FCC - don't ask why PMR got that mission either? I have no clue. It was called the PMR/USR-1 - PMR standing for Pacific Missile Range] We did not have time to wait for new machines to be developed - nor did we have time to wait for new copies of this set to be made either - so I went to PMR and told its CO I was taking two of them immediately - but that I would buy him replacements. [They cost about half a mil each - in those days real money - or three for a million]
[In an enlisted uniform you understand] He asked what gave the the authority to do that? I showed him a letter with one paragraph of one sentence - more or less "if you cannot give the bearer what he wants, call me" - and the captain replied "I recognize the signature." He then asked if I could tell him why? I said no. He replied "I didn't think so."
But in the Navy - we don't mess around - assuming leadership wants to turn us loose: we can and will do it - whatever it might be.
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TheElf
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RE: Modeling of Carrier Battles

Post by TheElf »

ORIGINAL: el cid again

ORIGINAL: TheElf

ORIGINAL: el cid again
We are "routinely" being defeated in air combat by third world air forces - according to Norman Polmar in the Proceedings (October I think)
In the quiet words of the Virgin Mary...Come again?

This is the wrong place for this - but we routinely play games - and in the past we could and would defeat all comers. Apparently this is no longer the case - and we usually lose. This seems in the same league as not caring for our limited number of CVAs - the sort of thing officers in charge should be addressing - and demanding resources for if they lack them. If it is indeed endemic - then the USN has gone the way of USAF - where no one who rocks the boat ever gets to Lt Col. Contrast this with USMC - or even the US Army of late - where a different attitude is cultivated - and where you are expected to go along only when things are acceptable.
This depends on what you are talking about, but I would love to hear it...PM sent
IN PERPETUUM SINGULARIS SEDES

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m10bob
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RE: Modeling of Carrier Battles

Post by m10bob »

The thread was hijacked. How did it get off the topic?...

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witpqs
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RE: Modeling of Carrier Battles

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: el cid again

You don't understand our system. If it is critical - and one of only 12 (now to be 11 or 10 because of unplanned issues)
CVAs is critical - JCS does NOT need to even consult Congress. They have emergency funding. You order the (whatever) and the fund is automatically refilled next period (4 weeks or less) - and if needs be you do it again.

Unless the constitution has been changed, any funds, be they in emergency accounts or otherwise, have to be appropriated by the US Congress and approved by the President (who was Clinton during the years in question). The procedure you describe is wonderful, but it's like counter-flooding - it works for a while.



Edited to add: [END HIJACK MODE!]
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Ron Saueracker
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RE: Modeling of Carrier Battles

Post by Ron Saueracker »

Just wondering if anything has come of this thread. Be great to have a more intricate system for Carrier Warfare.
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el cid again
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RE: Modeling of Carrier Battles

Post by el cid again »

ORIGINAL: witpqs
ORIGINAL: el cid again

You don't understand our system. If it is critical - and one of only 12 (now to be 11 or 10 because of unplanned issues)
CVAs is critical - JCS does NOT need to even consult Congress. They have emergency funding. You order the (whatever) and the fund is automatically refilled next period (4 weeks or less) - and if needs be you do it again.

Unless the constitution has been changed, any funds, be they in emergency accounts or otherwise, have to be appropriated by the US Congress and approved by the President (who was Clinton during the years in question). The procedure you describe is wonderful, but it's like counter-flooding - it works for a while.



Edited to add: [END HIJACK MODE!]

I agree with your latter comment.

But the former one is based on a misunderstanding: all the Constitution requires is that a funding bill originate in the House, be approved by the Senate and signed by the President. It is perfectly legal to designate emergency discretionary funds to any official or agency - although as far as I know only JCS has a significant amount of this.

Funding maintenance is not glamourous (like procurement of fighter planes or tanks or warships is) - and it is quite true that we have a tendency not to invest enough in it. Bad as you may think Clinton was, Bush the Second is far worse: the Navy is not even procuring warships any more (we got - what - 5 of 7 in 2007? which is to say a 150 ship fleet if sustained and ships lasted 30 years - which in many cases they do not). All the noise about "sea basing" in this DOD is political noise - since we are not funding actual sea forces.

A ship's captain - particularly of a captital ship - has a peculiar job. He has a responsibility to the ship, the crew, the Navy and the nation, and it does not always happen that this responsibility is compatable with what is politically convenient for the President or what Congress wishes to fund. Letting a vital asset like a CVA go to seed is NOT EVER acceptable behavior - and no one is selected for such a command who is not thought to understand that sort of thing. [In the Navy nuclear field, they will not even send you to school until they are sure you will disobey direct orders from your commanding officer in a combat situation - if he wants you to violate a standing safety protocol - which not even the President can order you to disregard. UNTIL the burocracy changes a standing order, it has precedence over operational orders, and lowly enlisted man or not, you cannot have the job if you won't insist the rules are honored - however inconvenient it may be on some occasion. I once was in a collision at sea - it got real bad when three helos crashed with all hands moving DC people from the ships involved - never mind that the original collision also killed two sailors. It was the sort of thing that ruins a career - but whose career depends on the evidence available to a Navy Board of Inquiry. In this case, the fault lie with an officer of the deck who disregarded advice from CIC not to stand into Midway Island - because another ship standing out was on the wrong side of the channel. IF the CIC log existed, THEN he would be accountable. IF it were somehow lost, his word would be taken over all those in CIC. The CIC CPO signed out the log, started a new one, and took it to the ECM shack - ordering me to lock in the ECM safe. "Change the combination. Personally guard the safe until ordered to open it by a Navy Board of Inquiry. Do not open the safe for anyone, including me, or the captain, under any circumstances." I spent an interesting three days limping back to PH - when various officers tried various kinds of threats. But opening the safe with torches would seem a little too suspicious - given the Radarmen saying what was in the log - and no one ever did figure out a way to get me to disobey the order from a Chief not even in my direct chain of command. Such things are SOP for the Navy: a captain has broad authority, particularly on his own ship - but not enough to permit obstruction of justice - or failing to insure minimum maintenance either. In the Navy you do what you need to do. In the Marines, they will even promote you for it - while in the Navy - you might not be promoted - you at least will be respected and never in trouble for doing the right thing.]
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RE: Modeling of Carrier Battles

Post by jwilkerson »

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Just wondering if anything has come of this thread. Be great to have a more intricate system for Carrier Warfare.

Ron I think we have developed some good ideas here and your version of strike attenuation was usefully simplier than mine. I do not think we can include further significant changes in the initial release, due to project management considerations, but we are interested in pursuing these types of ideas for a patch. Ian is "the boss" in this area - but he is attuned to these ideas as well.

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Ron Saueracker
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RE: Modeling of Carrier Battles

Post by Ron Saueracker »

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Just wondering if anything has come of this thread. Be great to have a more intricate system for Carrier Warfare.

Ron I think we have developed some good ideas here and your version of strike attenuation was usefully simplier than mine. I do not think we can include further significant changes in the initial release, due to project management considerations, but we are interested in pursuing these types of ideas for a patch. Ian is "the boss" in this area - but he is attuned to these ideas as well.


Joe, that is great news. Roll on AE.[&o]
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