Predict the 2007 Grey Cup!

[Marauders]

Marauders stated: Burris had a better season.  His numbers were better than Joseph's in almost all areas, and Burris missed three games

David Winter stated: Burris had only 277 more passing yards than Joseph. He threw more than 2x the number of interceptions. He had 3x as many fumbles. Joseph has over 100 more yards with 3x as many rushing TD's. Joseph missed 2 and half games.

While I may rather have Joseph quarterbacking than Burris because Burris doesn't protect the rock as well, and that is critical to me, I would have to say that you are cherry picking the stats a little bit there.

Player: Kerry Joseph ... Henry Burris

Official Games Played: 17 ... 14 - Joseph
Completion %: 58.2 ... 60.5 - Burris
Passing Yards: 4002 ... 4279 - Burris
Passing Yards Per Game: 235.4 ... 305.6 (Burris is the only player above 300 YPG)
Yards Per Attempt: 8.7 ... 9.1 - Burris (9.1 is the highest for starters in the CFL)
Passing Touchdowns: 24 ... 34 - Burris
Passing Touchdown %: 5.2 ... 7.2 - Burris (Only Burris and Michael Bishop at 6.2 had >6)
Interceptions: 08 ... 14 - Joseph (Joseph was tied with Anthony Calvillo as best)
Interception %: 1.7 ... 3.0 - Joseph (Joseph was tied with Anthony Calvillo as best)
300 Yard Passing Games: 5 ... 10 - Burris (No other player had more than 5)
Passer Rating: 97.1 ... 102.0 - Burris

Rushing Yards: 728 ... 623 - Joseph
Yards Per Carry: 8.2 ... 7.4 - Joseph
Rushing Touchdowns: 13 ... 05 - Joseph
Fumbles: 5 ... 6 - Joseph
Rushing Yards Per Game: 42.8 ... 44.5 - Burris
Rushing Touchdowns Per Game: .76 ... .36 - Joseph

Passing + Rushing Yards: 4730 ... 4902 - Burris
Passing + Rushing YPA: 8.62 ... 8.83 - Burris
Total Touchdowns: 37 ... 39 - Burris
Interceptions + Fumbles: 13 ... 20 - Joseph
Total Yards Per Game: 278.2 ... 350.1 - Burris
Total Touchdowns Per Game: 2.18 ... 2.79 - Burris

Burris had only 277 more passing yards than Joseph.

Only 277 yards is correct. Why is 277 yards insignificant?

He threw more than 2x the number of interceptions.

It is 8 for Joseph and 14 for Burris. While it is significant, 14 is less than 16. This statistic is a good point to bring up, because interceptions are a important, but your comment is embellished.

He had 3x as many fumbles.

Joseph had 5 fumbles and Burris had 6.

Joseph has over 100 more yards with 3x as many rushing TD's.

The statistics are 125 more yards and 13 touchdowns rather than 5 rushing touchdowns for Burris. That's close, but it is not 3x. What is important is that it doesn't make up for the 277 passing yards and 10 more passing touchdowns.

Joseph missed 2 and half games.

Joseph officially played in 17 games. Burris played in 14 games.

As stated above, I view turnovers as a very important statistic, so I have problems with Burris having so many interceptions. As you know, this isn't an aberation either; Burris has a history of having many interceptions. He does pass deep often, and that can be a partial cause. Five of the top seven quarterbacks in yardage had double digit interceptions, so it isn't uncommon to get picked in the CFL, but it is still an important factor.

On the other hand, Burris led the league for starters with 9.1 YPA and ten 300 yard passing games: that is double any other player for 300 yard games. Burris may lose games, but he also wins many of them with his passing.

Burris had numbers that were overall better than Joseph in many areas. Whether Burris or Joseph is is better player is debatable, but my comment was meant to show that Burris actually had superior stats on an inferior team.

[David Winter]

Only 277 yards is correct. Why is 277 yards insignificant?

 
Because it's less than a single games worth of passing that's why. Heck Matt Dunnigan once threw that in just over one quarter of play (finally thowing 713 yards passing in a single game).
 

Joseph officially played in 17 games. Burris played in 14 games.

 
Yes, they officially started 17 and 14 games...It doesn't tell you how many quarters were not finished due to injury or how often Burris was pulled because he was stinking up the joint. The number of starts is a meaningless stat.
 

The statistics are 125 more yards and 13 touchdowns rather than 5 rushing touchdowns for Burris. That's close, but it is not 3x. What is important is that it doesn't make up for the 277 passing yards and 10 more passing touchdowns.

 
Oh good lord.. okay 2.6x as many rushing TD's then. Everyone in the free world would round that up. 277 more passing yards?? Less than a games worth is not important. 10 extra TD's okay, those are nice, but they didn't help the team win more games. The majority of those 10 extra TD's likely came in one or two exceptionally good games. He was well below average the remainder of the season.
 

Five of the top seven quarterbacks in yardage had double digit interceptions, so it isn't uncommon to get picked in the CFL, but it is still an important factor.

 
Jackson is a 3rd stringer so to only 10 ints over the number of quarters he's played is excellent. So I'd remove him from those calculations. Glenn had 150 more passing attempts and had fewer int's than Burris, so I'd take him out of the equation too. Of those left, Burris, again, had the highest interception percentage in the league.
 
Dig out whatever stats you like. His stats don't tell the story. Joseph was/is a better QB that Burris is. Everyone in the country (outside of Calgary) has already stated that. Burris is a singleton. He's not a team player who is prone to self destruction taking his teams with him. It's why Roy Shivers wouldn't sign him back to the 'Riders when he asked for more money.
 
And as I said, the league MVP is not just about stats. So saying Burris was more deserving because he had (barely) better stats doesn't make any sense. In the CFL fans make up 25% of the votes. Media and coaches make up he rest. Obviously the majority don't give a flying fa doodle about Burris and his debatably slightly better stats. Heck Joe Smith in BC probably got more votes than Banks...

[David Winter]

It is 8 for Joseph and 14 for Burris. While it is significant, 14 is less than 16. This statistic is a good point to bring up, because interceptions are a important, but your comment is embellished.

Oh good lord.. embellished? 1.75x then. Close enough to 2x that nobody should care. You're over analyzing. And my comment stands firm. 2x (or 1.75 if you really need to be picky[8|]) is more than significant.

[Marauders]

It is 8 for Joseph and 14 for Burris. While it is significant, 14 is less than 16. This statistic is a good point to bring up, because interceptions are a important, but your comment is embellished.
Oh good lord.. embellished? 1.75x then. Close enough to 2x that nobody should care. You're over analyzing. And my comment stands firm. 2x (or 1.75 if you really need to be picky) is more than significant.

 
Yes, embellished. 
 
Verb 1. embellish - add details to, aggrandise, pad, embroider, lard, dramatize, blow up
glorify - cause to seem more splendid; "You are glorifying a rather mediocre building"
exaggerate, hyperbolize, overstate, amplify, magnify, overdraw - to enlarge beyond bounds or the truth.

You did not state almost 2x or even 2x; you stated more than 2x to make your point which is clearly not the case.
 
13 is not 3x5.
 
14 is not 2x8.
 
6 is not 3x5.
 
You mention only 277 yards as insignificant, yet you state that just over 100 yards more rushing is.  If 277 yards is almost meaningless, then why is 105 yards a big deal?
 

Burris is a singleton. He's not a team player who is prone to self destruction taking his teams with him. It's why Roy Shivers wouldn't sign him back to the 'Riders when he asked for more money.

 
You state that Burris has thrown away games, but he had 5 more (10 total) 300 yards passing games than any other quarterback in the CFL as well, so he certainly put Calgary in position to win some games.  Burris did only start 14 games, yet he played poorly in some of them and had to be removed from the game.  That makes his 305.6 yards per game even more impressive.
 
You mention the rushing TDs, but you do not mention either the passing TDs or the total TDs.  This is cherry picking just the statistics that show Joseph as better than Burris.  Whether the premise is true or not, this logically invalidates the argument.
 
Burris has two games with a QB rating less than 70, and only four games total less than 80.  That is two poor games and two fair games.  He had two good games at 80-89 rating, and he had eight games with over 100 rating.  Burris had only one game where he threw more picks that TD's (1TD 2Int) and three games even up.  Burris is a hot and cold quarterback, but he certainly was hot much more often than cold in 2007.
 

Dig out whatever stats you like. His stats don't tell the story. Joseph was/is a better QB that Burris is. Everyone in the country (outside of Calgary) has already stated that.

 
I understand that Burris has a past with Saskatchewan, and I don't have a problem with your premise, but this is football, and many football fans watch the stats closely.  I already stated that I would likely rather have Joseph as the quarterback than Burris, and he had a great game last week, but your stats were both cherry picked and embellished, and that harmed the validity of the case you presented.
 
In the NFL, I read that Michael Vick was a good player, but it is all hype.  His statistics say otherwise.  I questioned Vince Young as the Rookie of the Year, and I was told how well he did, but his stats said otherwise.  There are certainly other integibles and variables other than statistics to tell whether a player is doing well or not, but the stats are important.  The YPA, passing percentage, and TD/Int ratio are very important.
 
I have no doubt that Kerry Joseph is a fine player.  He is a threat to pass and to run.  He does not make many mistakes and he protects the rock.  His TD/Int ratio is great, and his fumbles are low considering how often he carries the ball on the ground.  He has leadership qualities that command respect.  That was all that needed to be stated.  The stats did not have to be padded and picked to show this.
 

[David Winter]

Todd.. you're arguing for the sake of it now.

You have obviously not followed the league very closely this year. Did you even see any games? You're reading way, way too much into the stats.

Yes, embellished. 
Verb 1. embellish - add details to, aggrandise, pad, embroider, lard, dramatize, blow up
glorify - cause to seem more splendid; "You are glorifying a rather mediocre building"
exaggerate, hyperbolize, overstate, amplify, magnify, overdraw - to enlarge beyond bounds or the truth.

You did not state almost 2x or even 2x; you stated more than 2x to make your point which is clearly not the case.
13 is not 3x5.
14 is not 2x8.
6 is not 3x5.

[8|]

Now you're just being nitpicky. Persnickety even. So what if I emphasise my point by rounding up a decimal place (and I didnt' round very far). Nobody cares. Everyone that read this thread and has seen Burris actually play, knows exactly what I'm talking about. Only someone that lives on stats alone needs to see the decimal place. The rest of us don't.

I understand that Burris has a past with Saskatchewan, and I don't have a problem with your premise, but this is football, and many football fans watch the stats closely. I already stated that I would likely rather have Joseph as the quarterback than Burris, and he had a great game last week, but your stats were both cherry picked and embellished, and that harmed the validity of the case you presented.

Who cares? It didn't harm any thing. Wholy cow.. I'm not trying to land man on mars here. I don't need to be decimal point accurate to make this point.

I do not care about Henry Burris' stats. Over the long haul, he's not a good player. He puts up out-of-body numbers for one or two games, then implodes the remainder. He's selfish, he's self destructive, and he's a coach killer. He lead his team to a 7-10-1 record and a dismal showing in the west semi final. That's pretty much the only stat anyone cares about.

[Brockleigh]

Ahhhh, I love a nice heated argument over Quarterbacks...

... and yeah, Smilin' Hank bites.

Y'know what really sucks... The Tiger-Cats effectively traded Kerry Joseph to Saskatchewan for nothing. When the Ottawa Renegades held their dispersal draft, the Cats had the first pick at the carcass, and traded it to the Green Riders for Corey Holmes and DB Scott Gordon. Gordon ended up being released and resigning with Saskatchewan, while the Tiger-Cats traded Holmes back to Saskatchewan (with this years first round pick, WR Chris Getzlaf) for WR Jason Armstead. No wonder Cats GM Marcel Desjardines lost his job after the season.

If the Roughriders win the Grey Cup, they ought to send Desjardines a ring. He's had as much of a hand building the Roughriders into a contender as Riders GM Eric Tillman.

[MjH]

ORIGINAL: Brockleigh
Y'know what really sucks... The Tiger-Cats effectively traded Kerry Joseph to Saskatchewan for nothing.

I heard an interview with Shivers (Saskatchewan's GM) not long after the Ottawa dispersal draft, and his thinking was that they were actually trading for Armstead, not Joseph. If I remember correctly, Hamilton had just gotten Maas from Edmonton, so he was Hamilton's "quarterback of the future" and Shivers thought that they would take Armstead to get Maas someone to throw to. So Joseph would have been available when Saskatchewan picked second.

So, since Holmes and Gordan ended back up with Saskatchewan, and Armstead is in Hamilton, Hamilton really traded Getzlaf for nothing. [:)]

[Marauders]

Brockleigh stated: Ahhhh, I love a nice heated argument over Quarterbacks....

I actually expected that a bit in the NFL threads. I didn't even get the best player topics for the CFL up.

[David Winter]

The Atlantic Schooners will be hosting a Grey Cup party in Toronto.
 
http://www.atlanticschooners.com/

[Arctic Blast]

Well, it seems this Grey Cup could be a total anticlimax, unless Ryan Dinwiddie turns out to be the CFL version of Tom Brady or Kurt Warner.

[Marauders]

David Winter stated:

Todd.. you're arguing for the sake of it now.

I made a simple statement of fact (Burris had a better season. His numbers were better than Joseph's in almost all areas), and you made an attempt to prove my statement invalid with embellished or incomplete facts. I could have said, "I guess you are right," or just let it be, but very few knowledgeable football fans on any NFL or CFL board would do that.

You have obviously not followed the league very closely this year. Did you even see any games? You're reading way, way too much into the stats.

I only see a few games each year. I have followed the CFL since the early 1980's, and I do watch many game highlights on CFL.ca and Youtube. I also understand that statistics can often offer a more true picture of reality than is perceived through casual observation.

You are a Riders fan, and there are plenty of reasons not to like Burris personally, but we are talking play on the field here. Statistics do matter. That stated, I also agree there are intangibles outside of statistics that can be variables in team play as well.

You did not state almost 2x or even 2x; you stated more than 2x to make your point which is clearly not the case.
13 is not 3x5.
14 is not 2x8.
6 is not 3x5.

Now you're just being nitpicky. Persnickety even. So what if I emphasise my point by rounding up a decimal place (and I didnt' round very far). Nobody cares. Everyone that read this thread and has seen Burris actually play, knows exactly what I'm talking about. Only someone that lives on stats alone needs to see the decimal place. The rest of us don't.

Rounding a decimal point from 50.5 to 51 isn't a big deal. Rounding a multiplier is.

I understand that Burris has a past with Saskatchewan, and I don't have a problem with your premise, but this is football, and many football fans watch the stats closely. I already stated that I would likely rather have Joseph as the quarterback than Burris, and he had a great game last week, but your stats were both cherry picked and embellished, and that harmed the validity of the case you presented.

Who cares? It didn't harm any thing. Wholy cow.. I'm not trying to land man on mars here.

This is the Red Zone. That's what this area is for - to discuss real world football topics. Again, your post was an attempt to prove my post invalid. There is certainly nothing wrong with my bringing up that your stats were less than an accurate representation of the situation. There is no need to get defensive with illogical analogies.

I don't need to be decimal point accurate to make this point.

Well, you do if you want the point to be valid. Seriously, rounding multipliers the way you did really would be frowned upon on any NFL board I read. Yes, hard core football fans are perhaps persnickety, but that is the nature of the beast. This is why so many game players want more stats and accurate stats in any football game.

I do not care about Henry Burris' stats. Over the long haul, he's not a good player. He puts up out-of-body numbers for one or two games, then implodes the remainder. He's selfish, he's self destructive, and he's a coach killer. He lead his team to a 7-10-1 record and a dismal showing in the west semi final. That's pretty much the only stat anyone cares about.

You made many statements there. What evidence do you have to suggest that Burris is the primary reason for the loss Calgary had taken? Saskatchewan has a highly rated defense, while Calgary has perhaps the lowest rated defense of any team to make the playoffs. Could that have been a variable in the game?

I would also like to point out that you have been making blanket statements as if no one else had an opinion on this subject: "who cares, nobody cares, everyone who read this thread, the rest of us don't, anyone cares about." If you have an opinion that you can support, go ahead, but please do not try to speak for everyone, as you will likely find that people have a different opinion than yours. There certainly is debate about this on CFL boards.

David, this is a standard subject on many CFL boards. There are always going to be debates on topics of this type, and that is why Red Zone was opened. Many differing opinions should be expected, and it is all for fun.

I suspect there will be some conversation on this subject in the Best CFL Quarterback topic area.

[WallysWorld]

Rider fans tend to over exaggerate Rider players big time. Joseph is a good and steady quarterback, but he isn't the great player Rider fans make him out to be.

Stats may not say everything, but they say a lot. And both Burris and Ray had the better QB rating than Joseph.

I will admit that Joseph is very steady in his play and that Burris can be hot or cold big time. But when Burris is on his game, he's the best in the CFL and Burris was playing his best when he got injured. Plain and simple. Rider fans tend not to acknowledge Burris' feats because of his leaving the Riders for the Stamps: kind of childish really. He's been gone three years and they can't seem to drop it. Their anti-Burris chanting has gotten old. By the way, Burris did what a lot of Saskatchewan people do: leave the province for a better job and more money.

I remember reading on a Rider forum this year that a bunch of Rider fans were going to phone in their vote for TSN's player of the game segment and vote for the other team's player instead of Burris because they wanted to deny Burris the accomplishment of being player of the game.

I would rank Burris, Ray and Dickenson ahead of Joseph.

[Marauders]

Rider fans tend not to acknowledge Burris' feats because of his leaving the Riders for the Stamps:

I agree that Riders fans tend to hold a grudge against Burris, but it isn't the only reason they may not believe he is as good as his stats.

Burris does tend to not protect the rock.

How well do you believe the Stamps would have done this season with a better defense?

Stats may not say everything, but they say a lot. And both Burris and Ray had the better QB rating than Joseph.

That is valid.  Burris and Ray did have better quarterback ratings, but neither of them came close to what Joseph did on the ground, and that was impressive.  That stated, Burris still had more total yards, more total touchdowns, and more yards per play overall.

What I have been impressed with in Joseph this season is his relatively low number of turnovers.  His 1.7% interception percentage was very good.  Anthony Calvillo's was 1.7% as well.  Both players had the same number of attempts and the same number of interceptions.

Burris had a 3.0% interception percentage, which is a little high for a starter, but it isn't as poor as either Burris or Joseph did in 2006 at 3.4% and 3.7% respectively.

Burris did what a lot of Saskatchewan people do: leave the province for a better job and more money.

Is that why there are so many Riders fans at away games?  Perhaps that explains it. [;)]

As far as quarterbacks go, will Dinwiddie be able to cut it in the Grey Cup?  The Blue Bombers had five quarterbacks play this season, but none of them other than Glenn had a QB Passer Rating over 53.0 in the regular season.  Dinwiddie threw three picks in just 24 attempts.  he did go 4 for 4 last Sunday though.

[Arctic Blast]

I'll say it again...Burris on his game is awesome. Burris off his game is AWFUL. Yes, at one point this year, nobody in the league was playing better. However, don't forget that at an earlier point, he was playing so badly he was extremely close to being benched (for the 'immortal' Akili Smith).

[Marauders]

Burris reminds me a lot of Daunte Culpepper.  When he was hot, he could light it up, but he could not protect the rock.  I can see where David and other Riders fans would not be impressed with his ability to blow games with picks and fumbles.
 
On the other hand, Joseph had similar problems with Ottawa and Saskatchewan until this past season.
 
As far as the Grey Cup goes, I am hoping for a Winnipeg win, as they are just north of the border.

[Marauders]

Predict the 2007 Grey Cup!

Saskatchewan Roughriders

MjH
Jdhalfrack
Brockleigh
bfpg

These four community members were correct!