"Gamey" Tactics

[Ike99]

The new "patch" is called Carrier Force!

When is carrier force though? That could be 2 years from now.

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: Ike99

... look at the Japanese ¨gamey tactic¨ in this battle. Using empty carriers as bait to pull off allied airpower against the real threat. The Japanese battleships.

Yes, but the IJN didn't have any carrier planes/pilots for these CVs, which is very different from land basing your planes and sending the empty CVs back to Truk/Tok.

[Ike99]

Yes, but the IJN didn't have any carrier planes/pilots for these CVs, which is very different from land basing your planes and sending the empty CVs back to Truk/Tok.

I think the Japanese did just that though didn´t they Joe?

[decaro]

If I understand that map correctly, CV a/c reinforced Rabaul, but these planes were "disproportionally" lost during operations I and Ro and couldn't be replaced; I didn't think Yamamoto ever intended that the carrier a/c would never return to their ships after the Rabaul ops were over.

Further, the parent CVs were not permanently sent out of harm's way, which was the original complaint of this thread.

[Ike99]

Any thoughts on single ship transport convoys? Land-based aircraft will not fly against them. Gamey? They are meat for subs though.

OK, I just did some testing with this single ship convoy thing. YES...YES...YES...aircraft will fly against single ship convoys. At least on the Allied side...

I set up 17 on head to head and played a very sinister move, going to the extreme of trying to launch an entire invasion of PM with single ship convoys. I kept all carriers out of it...

The conclusion I come to is trying to launch an invasion with single ship convoys is folly, your dead meat. The single ship convoy by it´s very makeup is completely unescorted. I simply took the Allies, created a few 1,2,3 plus surface combat fleets of destroyers and CL´s and they completely destroyed the ENTIRE invasion force.

Also, yes...the Allied airpower did launch against them...I´m not sure what triggered them to launch but they did. Some of the combat reports...

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/07/42

Weather: Clear

Night Time Surface Combat, near Port Moresby at

10,40

Japanese Ships
AP Nichibi Maru, Shell hits 2, on fire

Allied Ships
DD Anderson

Japanese ground losses:
Men lost 17


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Port Moresby at

10,40

Japanese Ships
AP Nichibi Maru, Shell hits 2, on fire

Allied Ships
DD Monaghan

Japanese ground losses:
Men lost 12


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Port Moresby at

10,40

Japanese Ships
AP Nichibi Maru, Shell hits 6, on fire, heavy

damage

Allied Ships
DD Walke, Shell hits 1

Japanese ground losses:
Men lost 51


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat at 0,0

Japanese Ships
AP Nichibi Maru, Shell hits 3, Torpedo hits 2, and is

sunk

Allied Ships
DD Farragut, Shell hits 1

Japanese ground losses:
Men lost 600
Guns lost 5


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What triggered this airpower launched against this single ship convoy I have not figured out but it did and there are some others...
Air attack on TF at 12,42


Allied aircraft
Hudson x 5
P-40E Kittyhawk x 3


no losses

Japanese Ships
AP China Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Japanese ground losses:
Men lost 19

Attacking Level Bombers:
4 x Hudson at 1000 feet
1 x Hudson at 1000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 12,42


Allied aircraft
Hudson x 8
P-39D Airacobra x 28
A-24 Dauntless x 13


no losses

Japanese Ships
AP China Maru, Bomb hits 13, on fire, heavy

damage

Japanese ground losses:
Men lost 154
Guns lost 2

Attacking Level Bombers:
4 x Hudson at 1000 feet
4 x Hudson at 1000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 13,42


Allied aircraft
P-39D Airacobra x 14


no losses

Japanese Ships
AP Akibasan Maru, Bomb hits 8, on fire, heavy

damage

Japanese ground losses:
Men lost 75
Guns lost 5


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 13,42


Allied aircraft
Hudson x 12
P-40E Kittyhawk x 3
A-24 Dauntless x 13


Allied aircraft losses
Hudson x 1 damaged

Japanese Ships
CL Tenryu, Bomb hits 1

Attacking Level Bombers:
2 x Hudson at 1000 feet
2 x Hudson at 1000 feet
4 x Hudson at 1000 feet
4 x Hudson at 1000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 13,42


Allied aircraft
P-39D Airacobra x 14


Allied aircraft losses
P-39D Airacobra x 1 damaged

Japanese Ships
DD Uzuki, Shell hits 16


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/09/42

Weather: Thunderstorms

Night Time Surface Combat, near Port Moresby at

10,40

Japanese Ships
AP Goyo Maru, Shell hits 2, on fire

Allied Ships
PG Swan


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Port Moresby at

10,40

Japanese Ships
AP Goyo Maru, Shell hits 7, on fire, heavy damage

Allied Ships
DD Morris

Japanese ground losses:
Men lost 88


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Port Moresby at 10,40


Allied aircraft
Hudson x 11
P-39D Airacobra x 29
P-40E Kittyhawk x 3
A-24 Dauntless x 12


no losses

Japanese Ships
AP Goyo Maru, Shell hits 24, Bomb hits 8, on fire,

heavy damage

Japanese ground losses:
Men lost 156
Guns lost 1

Attacking Level Bombers:
4 x Hudson at 1000 feet
4 x Hudson at 1000 feet
3 x Hudson at 1000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------








But regardless of the airpower, if someone tries to launch a single ship invasion simply break up your ships into small surface combat groups and from what I saw here in this test you will do extreme damage on them and possibly even wipe them completely out.

[tocaff]

Obviously this is a flawed test as you didn't supply a surface fleet as a cover force in the same hex.  With air cover and surface protection it's not dead meat, rather an overload of targets that has to leak through the defense.  It would overwhelm the defense's abilities by sheer numbers of targets and still be protected.  Try it that way Ike.

[Ike99]

Obviously this is a flawed test as you didn't supply a surface fleet as a cover force in the same hex. With air cover and surface protection it's not dead meat, rather an overload of targets that has to leak through the defense. It would overwhelm the defense's abilities by sheer numbers of targets and still be protected. Try it that way Ike.

This is irrelevant now Todd.

Ladies and Gentlemen I have discovered how to get land based bombers to attack single ship convoys. The days of single ship convoys being immune to land based air attack are now over.

Do this....

Set your land based bombers to ¨naval attack¨
Altitude 1,000 ft.
Set their ¨naval search¨ percentage to 30%

Other combinations may also work but I know this DEFINATELY works...

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/10/42

Weather: Clear

Air attack on TF at 21,33

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 17

no losses

Allied Ships
AP Largs Bay, Torpedo hits 5, on fire, heavy

damage

Attacking Level Bombers:
4 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
4 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
4 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
4 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
1 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 21,33

Japanese aircraft
A5M4 Claude x 4
A6M2 Zero x 9
G3M Nell x 29

no losses

Attacking Level Bombers:
3 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
1 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
4 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
3 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
4 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
4 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
2 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
4 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
4 x G3M Nell at 200 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 21,33

Japanese aircraft
A5M4 Claude x 4
A6M2 Zero x 15
G3M Nell x 25
G4M1 Betty x 16

no losses

Attacking Level Bombers:
4 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
4 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
4 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
2 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
4 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
4 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
3 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
4 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
4 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
4 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
4 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Ike99]

Any thoughts on single ship transport convoys? Land-based aircraft will not fly against them. Gamey? They are meat for subs though.

They will now.

More proof....

3 single ship transports sailing towards Rabaul...

result...

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/14/42

Weather: Rain

Air attack on TF at 21,33

Japanese aircraft
A5M4 Claude x 5
A6M2 Zero x 9
D3A Val x 17
B5N Kate x 13
G3M Nell x 23
G4M1 Betty x 4

no losses

Allied Ships
AP Esperance Bay, Bomb hits 6, Torpedo hits 6, on

fire, heavy damage

Attacking Level Bombers:
2 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
3 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
4 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
2 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
4 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
4 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
4 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
4 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 23,33

Japanese aircraft
G3M Nell x 3
G4M1 Betty x 9

no losses

Allied Ships
AP Moreton Bay, Torpedo hits 4, on fire, heavy

damage

Attacking Level Bombers:
1 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
3 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
4 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
4 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 23,34

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 3

no losses

Allied Ships
AP Largs Bay

Attacking Level Bombers:
3 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 23,34

Japanese aircraft
A5M4 Claude x 4
A6M2 Zero x 11
D3A Val x 19
B5N Kate x 17
G3M Nell x 22
G4M1 Betty x 17

no losses

Allied Ships
AP Largs Bay, Bomb hits 7, Torpedo hits 5, on fire,

heavy damage

Attacking Level Bombers:
1 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
2 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
4 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
4 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
3 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
4 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
1 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
4 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
4 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
4 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
4 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
4 x G3M Nell at 200 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Try it yourself, it works. Your land based bombers will attack single ship convoys consistantly.

Set your land based bombers to ¨naval attack¨
Altitude 1,000 ft.
Set their ¨naval search¨ percentage to 30%

Other combinations may also work but I know this DEFINATELY works...

[HansBolter]

Ike, that appears to be good data, however, if we set our land based bombers to 1000 feet and 30% search to catch one ship TFs they will be at a disadvantage against larger TFs coming in at an altitude that lessens thier effectivness (level bombers below 500 ft.) and reduces thier strength (relatively high search percentage).

It would seem to make sense to keep at least one, or maybe two squadrons at a base on this setting to effectively counter the one ship TFs while keeping the remainder of your squadrons at the best settings for taking on the substantial TFs.

Have you tried fighterbombers at 100 feet to see if they will go after the one ship TFs? FBs from PM provide good coverage over Lae and Finschafen and it would be sweet if they could be relied upon to shut down that kind of traffic to those ports.

[Ike99]

Ike, that appears to be good data, however, if we set our land based bombers to 1000 feet and 30% search to catch one ship TFs they will be at a disadvantage against larger TFs coming in at an altitude that lessens thier effectivness (level bombers below 500 ft.) and reduces thier strength (relatively high search percentage).

I wouldn´t think this would be the case with Japanese bombers at least as they drop down to 200ft when attacking. Dive bombers & torpedo bombers drop down too. For the Allies this could be an issue but it seems from most of my opponents they like to set their level bombers to 100ft to try skip bombing anyways. [:D]

But it is good to know there is a way to attack single ship convoys with airpower however it goes.

Have you tried fighterbombers at 100 feet to see if they will go after the one ship TFs?

No I haven´t tried that yet. I´m still trying to nail down exactly what parameters the program is using to make the land based bombers attack single ship convoys. Maybe once can set the search percentage to 10%, I´m not sure yet. I keep testing and trying to find out what the numbers that can be used exactly.

[RGIJN]

how about this 1000ft alt setting for IJN level bombers considering allied AA defense? probably the losses due to flak will become some pain in the a*s...[X(] Especially when they meet "normal" TFs rather than lone sailors.
Just wondering about. Did you tried this tactics against conventional allied shipping as SCTFs or larger convoys?

[Ike99]

how about this 1000ft alt setting for IJN level bombers considering allied AA defense? probably the losses due to flak will become some pain in the a*s... Especially when they meet "normal" TFs rather than lone sailors.
Just wondering about. Did you tried this tactics against conventional allied shipping as SCTFs or larger convoys?

With a conventional TF (more than one ship) I would just use conventional tactics. I´m merely addressing the problem with getting land based bombers to attack single ships. Until now it was thought not to be possible. It is possible.

[ILCK]

Does the range matter?

I ask because I've run dozens and dozens of one ship convoys into PM and Rossell Island and Lunga all of which are in range of LBA and none have ever been attacked by LBA in my game. Your ships have gotten much closer to Rabaul.

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: ILCK

Does the range matter?

I ask because I've run dozens and dozens of one ship convoys into PM and Rossell Island and Lunga all of which are in range of LBA and none have ever been attacked by LBA in my game. Your ships have gotten much closer to Rabaul.

Yes, Ike's Allied target ships were very close to Rabaul; I wonder if naval search detection is inversely proportional to the distance from the scout's home base, i.e., the farther away the ship, the less the chance of detection, all other things (wx) being equal.

I think the answer lies in UV detection levels, which should be very low (0) for single-ship convoys at distance, i.e., the farther out the scouts go, the greater the distance/empty sea between them; but this is not the case when your scouts are close to home, i.e., as they all converge back toward the same airfield.

[DEB]

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

ORIGINAL: ILCK

Does the range matter?

I ask because I've run dozens and dozens of one ship convoys into PM and Rossell Island and Lunga all of which are in range of LBA and none have ever been attacked by LBA in my game. Your ships have gotten much closer to Rabaul.

Yes, Ike's Allied target ships were very close to Rabaul; I wonder if naval search detection is inversely proportional to the distance from the scout's home base, i.e., the farther away the ship, the less the chance of detection, all other things (wx) being equal.

I think the answer lies in UV detection levels, which should be very low (0) for single-ship convoys at distance, i.e., the farther out the scouts go, the greater the distance/empty sea between them; but this is not the case when your scouts are close to home, i.e., as they all converge back toward the same airfield.

I think you hit the nail plum on the head here. The nearer the TF is to a Japanese air base ( particularly Rabaul ), the easier it will be to find.

Ike 99 - The test data was interesting; it's still seems overkill with so many LBA involved in an attack on 1 ship though. As there are some land based Vals/Kates to hand surely these would be better employed by themselves here, leaving the Betty's and Nell's for better things? The damage results may not look as good though!

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

ORIGINAL: ILCK

Does the range matter?

I ask because I've run dozens and dozens of one ship convoys into PM and Rossell Island and Lunga all of which are in range of LBA and none have ever been attacked by LBA in my game. Your ships have gotten much closer to Rabaul.

Yes, Ike's Allied target ships were very close to Rabaul; I wonder if naval search detection is inversely proportional to the distance from the scout's home base, i.e., the farther away the ship, the less the chance of detection, all other things (wx) being equal.

I think the answer lies in UV detection levels, which should be very low (0) for single-ship convoys at distance, i.e., the farther out the scouts go, the greater the distance/empty sea between them; but this is not the case when your scouts are close to home, i.e., as they all converge back toward the same airfield.

I am a little leery of this Joe. The one ship TFs have to be spotted in the first place for the player to know his air units are not attacking them. If the one ship TFs remain undetected, the player would never be aware his planes aren't attacking them. So, this situation seems to apply to spotted, detected one ship TFs.

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

... I am a little leery of this Joe. The one ship TFs have to be spotted in the first place for the player to know his air units are not attacking them. If the one ship TFs remain undetected, the player would never be aware his planes aren't attacking them. So, this situation seems to apply to spotted, detected one ship TFs.

Well, I'm not entirely sure either, hence my use of words like "wonder" and "think"; my observations were part speculation, since I couldn't find anything specific in the UV pdf, but UV players were advised that one-ship convoys were difficult if not impossible to detect. Unfortunately, there's nothing specific re this in the pdf under MDLs and DLs. The only people who know for sure would be the original UV development team, but their appearance on this forum is as rare as a theophany.

One last thought; if Ike's experiments were run in "head-to-head" mode, they may not be valid for actual single player play, i.e., vs. the AI or PBEM.

[HansBolter]

My take on what is occuring is that the one ship TF are getting spotted in the search phase (an sometimes potentially getting bombed by the search plane), but in the air operations phase no bombers are even lauching against them at all.

I think it would be a different case, and closer to what you proposed, if during the air ops phase bombers were flying to the hex in response to the effective search in the search phase and then failing to find the target becasue of it's low detection level. However, this doesn't appear to be what players are experiencing. What they are experiencing is no bombing mission at all in response to the effective search in the search phase.

[Ike99]

Does the range matter? Your ships have gotten much closer to Rabaul.

Yes, a lot. From what I can tell here is, if you sail a single ship transport within 6 spaces of land based bombers you will be attacked.Normal conditions of course. Crew fatigue being good, etc.

Beyond 6 spaces the percentage seems to drop drasticaly for a bomber to launch against a single ship convoy. Personally I wouldn´t mind Mike changing this 6 space range to 7, as it would allow consistant intercepts of single ships going into Port Moresby from Lae, Finschaven and and vice versa

PM from Mike Wood...

Hello...

Groups will attack a task force of 1 ship, if it is close. They will attack a task force of 2 ships at greater range, a task force of 3 ships at greater range still and so forth. The task force type is also a factor as is the type of air group as are the types and sizes of ships in task force.

Spotting works in a similar fashion, in that small task forces are harder to spot, as are smaller ships.

Bye...

Michael Wood

[ILCK]

Ike's message confirms what I have seen by experimenting. I set up one ship Routine Convoys for all my bases. Covoys to Lunga, Tassafaroong, PM, Gili Gili, Rossell Island all skate by unmolested but the ship to Munda (near Shortland) and Salamura (near Lae) get bombed every time.