MOST StupidEST-EST Rule!

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Tater
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RE: MOST StupidEST-EST Rule!

Post by Tater »

...Have you ever actually TRIED to conquer Spain's capital?

No, but then nobody ever does because the Spaniard will normally surrender if it looks like it is going that far. Spain seldom has a reason to hold out if they can get a conditional...and the cost of forcing Spain to an unconditional is almost never worth it. So, from a strictly practical point of view, there is seldom any reason/opportunity to occupy Madrid.

OTOH, with this rule, concerns about supply lines are not that huge since winning the battle at the capital and occupying the city is all that matters. So you loose a couple of militia to foraging...so what, your opponent is going to be surrendering unconditionally shortly so it really doesn't matter.
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zaquex
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RE: MOST StupidEST-EST Rule!

Post by zaquex »

ORIGINAL: Soapy Frog

You cant find the rule Zaquex becuase it doesn't exist. AresMars quotes the correct rules section.

What I thought
7.5.4.2.3 Relieving Force-Limited Field Combats: If the besieged force attacks with the help of "relieving forces" (ie., external corps that enter the area from another area) or such relieving forces attack without assistance from any part (all besieged factors do not have to be used) of the besieged force, a "limited" field combat instead of a defender attack combat is fought....

7.5.4.2.3.1 Relieving Force Fails TO Win: If the relieving force breaks or does not win within 3 rounds, the siege is resumed.


Looks pretty clear for EiA standards

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Murat
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RE: MOST StupidEST-EST Rule!

Post by Murat »

ORIGINAL: zaquex
the siege is resumed.

RESUMED (From Webster's)
"to return to or begin again after interruption"

Pretty clear indeed.

You can combine that with the requirement to have an uninterrupted seige.
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RE: MOST StupidEST-EST Rule!

Post by ndrose »

It seems to me this is a deviation (whether intentional or not) from the boardgame, but it cuts two ways. In EiANW, when a relieving corps moves into the area, the besiegers are pulled off the walls and into the rural area, breaking the siege whether the relievers win or not; that's obviously an advantage for the defenders. On the other hand, it means that the garrison can't participate in the combat (at least I don't see any way for them to do so), which is an advantage (though a slight one, if the garrison's small) for the besiegers.

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zaquex
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RE: MOST StupidEST-EST Rule!

Post by zaquex »

ORIGINAL: Murat
ORIGINAL: zaquex
the siege is resumed.

RESUMED (From Webster's)
"to return to or begin again after interruption"

Pretty clear indeed.

You can combine that with the requirement to have an uninterrupted seige.

Thank you for the definition, although it didnt seem to be any confusion of what resumed means.

Although I am confused with what you mean. What requirements are you referring to and what relevance does it have to support the current implementation of EiANW?
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Murat
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RE: MOST StupidEST-EST Rule!

Post by Murat »

Well, it seems some confusion did exist since several people indicate that an attack by a corps that loses does not interrupt the seige, which it does, and always has. As for the uninterrupted language:
 
10.7 Conquest of Minor Countries
[font="helveticaneue condensed,helveticaneue condensed"]
Conquests of minor countries are checked for after all major power sequences are completed. Control flags are changed to show the conquest of minor countries and their change of control. The control flags are changed only if the capital of the minor country was occupied during the previous month and the conqueror has maintained uninterrupted and unbesieged occupation for the entire current month. A newly conquered minor country is always marked with a conquered control flag.
[/font]
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zaquex
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RE: MOST StupidEST-EST Rule!

Post by zaquex »

ORIGINAL: Murat

Well, it seems some confusion did exist since several people indicate that an attack by a corps that loses does not interrupt the seige, which it does, and always has. As for the uninterrupted language:


The semantics is irrelevant, the problem is that the implementation doesn't resume the siege as per 7.5.4.2.3.1

ORIGINAL: Murat
10.7 Conquest of Minor Countries
[font="helveticaneue condensed,helveticaneue condensed"]
Conquests of minor countries are checked for after all major power sequences are completed. Control flags are changed to show the conquest of minor countries and their change of control. The control flags are changed only if the capital of the minor country was occupied during the previous month and the conqueror has maintained uninterrupted and unbesieged occupation for the entire current month. A newly conquered minor country is always marked with a conquered control flag.
[/font]

Which says that even if the releiving forces won the battle, the prerequisite for conquest has not been met for the past month.

It does not really have relevance for issue that the siege should be resumed, even though it highlights that EiANW currently deviate conciderable from EiA.
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RE: MOST StupidEST-EST Rule!

Post by Soapy Frog »

Murat, the rule you are quoting is minor country control which is not relevant anyway since it's talking about uninterrupted OCCUPATION, to conquer a MINOR. No one disputes that rule.
 
Not sure why you are trying to derail this thread Murat but this is actually two important issues at stake in this thread:
 
1) There should absolutely not be a forced surrender requirement when your capital is occupied
2) Besieging units which have been involved in a field battle but not lost should return to sieging when the battle is complete
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Marshall Ellis
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RE: MOST StupidEST-EST Rule!

Post by Marshall Ellis »

1. We kept Civil Disorder out of the game. It was only coded with Civil Disorder Restrictions in place thus forcing the player to sue for peace in the diplomacy step and not allowing the elimination of the MP. Maybe we could add this as an option later on?
 
Thank you

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zaquex
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RE: MOST StupidEST-EST Rule!

Post by zaquex »

Hey Marshall could you please comment on:
 
1) There should absolutely not be a forced surrender requirement when your capital is occupied
2) Besieging units which have been involved in a field battle but not lost should return to sieging when the battle is complete
 
Its two absolutly game changing things that are fundamental for EiA. The current implementation is open for all sorts of abuse and exploitation that cant have been intended by the developers. On top of that it also creates balance issues. Can you give your thoughts and intentions regarding this. Please. 
 
 
Regards
 
zaq
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Murat
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RE: MOST StupidEST-EST Rule!

Post by Murat »

ORIGINAL: Soapy Frog

Murat, the rule you are quoting is minor country control which is not relevant anyway since it's talking about uninterrupted OCCUPATION, to conquer a MINOR. No one disputes that rule.

Not sure why you are trying to derail this thread Murat but this is actually two important issues at stake in this thread:

1) There should absolutely not be a forced surrender requirement when your capital is occupied
2) Besieging units which have been involved in a field battle but not lost should return to sieging when the battle is complete

I am not trying to derail anything, I didn't bring the whole seige stuff up at all, I just responded to what was in the first post of the thread.
1) I agree, we should have Civil Disorder back. It is a RULE from EiA, not an option.
2) That's what I have been trying to say but then people went off on this tangent about a seige being uninterrupted. zaq actually opened the tangent and quoted the seiging rules NOT the rules for surrender and indicated that an attacking force breaking a seige was 'wrong' and against EiA and EiH which is not entirely correct, a seige can be interrupted just by battle under those very rules that were quoted.
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RE: MOST StupidEST-EST Rule!

Post by Soapy Frog »

I don't beleive that is so in any case Murat, battles do not "interrupt" sieges unless the sieging force is dislodged.
 
I am glad we agree on the important part, which is that EiANW is doing it wrong on two counts.
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RE: MOST StupidEST-EST Rule!

Post by Soapy Frog »

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

1. We kept Civil Disorder out of the game. It was only coded with Civil Disorder Restrictions in place thus forcing the player to sue for peace in the diplomacy step and not allowing the elimination of the MP. Maybe we could add this as an option later on?
Can you speak to the fact that having your capital occupied requires you to sue for peace?
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zaquex
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RE: MOST StupidEST-EST Rule!

Post by zaquex »

2) That's what I have been trying to say but then people went off on this tangent about a seige being uninterrupted. zaq actually opened the tangent and quoted the seiging rules NOT the rules for surrender and indicated that an attacking force breaking a seige was 'wrong' and against EiA and EiH which is not entirely correct, a seige can be interrupted just by battle under those very rules that were quoted.
 
First I never said anything about interrupted, you brought that up. What I did say was cancelled; there is a distinct difference.
 
I did quote the siege rules as the example includes a siege. 
 
If the siege is interrupted has no significance for say tax collection. It is only relevant if the siege is cancelled, even if the attempt to relieve the city fails. EiA clearly states that the siege is not cancelled. The EiANW rules states that if the garrison attack the besieging force and loses, the siege is resumed which is consistent with EiA.
 
This was brought up as an underlying problem of the description, even if not specifically stated as a problem by the OP, it was explained as the cause by Marshall.
 
If the siege was interrupted only matters for determination of conquest. The subject of conquest has relevance if the besieged city is a minor capital but this is not the case in the OP's example. There is still a suggestion that the consequence of his example also applies to EiANW's implementation of conquest, which then would be inconsistent with EiA.
 
EiA states that a month’s uninterrupted occupation of a minor capitol is a prerequisite for conquest. Even if the relieving attempt is successful the occupier has still not fulfilled the requirements for conquest the month the siege is lifted. This is a third possible problem highlighted by the example.
 
All discussion in this thread assumes that control of a major capitol city is determined the same way that control is determined for a minor capital and that the same conditions that are used for determining conquest applies to check for forced surrender. This is regardless if the current implementation should be changed or not. There is to my knowledge no rule in the EiANW rules that explains the conditions for forced surrender. It would in my opinion be reasonable to assume that its not the developers intention that it should be easier to force a surrender from a major power than to conquer a minor.
 
The identified possible issues would then be:
 
1)     Occupation of a major powers capital should not in itself force that major power to surrender.
2)     After an unsuccessful attempt to relieve a besieged city, the siege should resume.
3)     There is a suggestion that the condition requiring a month’s uninterrupted and unbesieged occupation of a minor’s capitol as per EiANW 10.7 is not implemented as stated.
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Murat
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RE: MOST StupidEST-EST Rule!

Post by Murat »

Agreed. 1&2 need to be fixed, 3 is working according to the rules. I addressed this:
ORIGINAL:  zaquex
That an attacking force can cancel the siege by just attacking is wrong, especially if it can be done by a single 1 factor militia corp. EiA rules says about limited field combat cause thats in my oppinion what it is whether or not any forces from the beseiged force is used:
whether or not beseiged forces are used is irrelevant and there are cases where a 1 factor corp can disrupt a seige just by attacking, namely conquest. Your english (or american) is far from flawless and answering your questions often involves some guess work as to what your problem is and I try to cover all the bases.
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RE: MOST StupidEST-EST Rule!

Post by Soapy Frog »

ORIGINAL: Murat

whether or not beseiged forces are used is irrelevant and there are cases where a 1 factor corp can disrupt a seige just by attacking, namely conquest. Your english (or american) is far from flawless and answering your questions often involves some guess work as to what your problem is and I try to cover all the bases.
This is not true though; there is no case where 1 factor attacking will "interrupt" a siege for any purpose within the game.

The rule you quote from minor country conquest is talking about uninterrupted and unbeseiged OCCUPATION. It's a different case.
Grimrod42
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RE: MOST StupidEST-EST Rule!

Post by Grimrod42 »

I though the rule for that is the seige remains unless the seiging force is forced to leave the area...
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Murat
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RE: MOST StupidEST-EST Rule!

Post by Murat »

ORIGINAL: Soapy Frog
This is not true though; there is no case where 1 factor attacking will "interrupt" a siege for any purpose within the game.

The rule you quote from minor country conquest is talking about uninterrupted and unbeseiged OCCUPATION. It's a different case.

OK occupation then. A corp occupying a capital province that is attacked, even by a 1 factor corps that it beats, wil have to go another month before it can conquest.
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RE: MOST StupidEST-EST Rule!

Post by Soapy Frog »

I disagree with that too, since the occupation was not interrupted simply by a battle in the same area (unless the corp was sieged for part of that month, i.e. the 1 factor moved in, besieged, and then the occupying corp sorties and killed or drove off the beseiging corp).
 
 
Trin
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RE: MOST StupidEST-EST Rule!

Post by Trin »

This game circumstances that were outlined in the start of this thread seem to raise three issues and it feels like that might be getting a little lost in the discussion. The issues as I see them are:-

Issue #1
Should a MP be forced to surrender when they lose control of their capital?

but leaving aside the question of whether 'forced' surrender is the intended outcome or whether its good etc, the circumstances in which this MP did lose control of its capital raises the next issue

Issue #2
If a besieging force is attacked, and wins, shouldn't it 'resume the siege'? which I thought would have meant it was automatically, by the program, put right back in the position it was in, before the battle - besieging the capital. If it is back beseiging the capital, why is the game treating it as though there is now uncontested control of the city?

Perhaps there is an error in my understanding of the rules or perhaps the program doesn't put the corp/forces back into siege mode at the critical test point - whether this is an error or intentional is something that will no doubt be made clear eventually....BUT

It does give rise to one more interesting question..

Issue #3
However in this circumstance, EVEN IF the besieging forces do NOT actually resume the siege.....there has been a besieging force present during the current month. Why is it being treated as though the 'enemy' now has uncontested control?

The EIANW Rules clearly state that in order to conquer a Minor Power, it must have been occupied during the previous month and the conqueror must have maintained uninterrupted and unbesieged occupation for the entire current month. I can't actually find an exact rule in EIANW detailing criteria for successfully taking control of a national capital city (or for that matter, when a MP is forced to surrender) but I'd be surprised if the test for having uncontested control of a national capital city was less than that required for conquering a minor. I admit that I'd assumed it must be the same. It does not make sense that it is easier to force an MP into a 'must' surrender position, than it is to conquer a minor.


This is not an attempt to derail the discussion. Its an attempt to follow the logic and summarise what I've been reading here in the various comments.

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