Play Calls and Gameplans

[Marauders]

Scott stated: If I set a group for 2nd and >1  and a group 2nd and >10, with any in all other catagories, wouldnt the plays I have in the 2nd and >1 also have a chance of being used in a 2nd and>10 situation ...

Yes, they would.  In earlier posts, I indicated that overlapping variables is a problem.

... which is another reason why exclusive would work better.

I understand.  As I have stated, that is how I once thought it worked.

Having overlapping variables would still be a problem though.

[Scott_WAR]

Well, it would be easier for people to understand, would be easier to make profiles, would take less time,............ so I dont understand why it isnt done this way. It should be changed if possible. If its not possible, it should definately be the way its done in the next version.

[Marauders]

I can do it either way, but I agree that being exclusive on a 100% match is easier to visualize.  I had the same mindset as you did until recently, so I understand your point of view.
 
I know David has tried to see how this would work in several ways, and this way allowed the ANY option to be included, and it is certainly better to have it as an option than to not.
 
 

[Scott_WAR]

The any option could still be used, just change the situations from inclusive to exclusive. It would work better.

[cbelva]

ORIGINAL: Deft

I think we would all rather see the ability to copy and paste the plays situations in the profile and select more than one play to add at a time, so they don't all have to be made from scratch. It would be a big time saver and help much of the frustration.

I have to agree with Deft. The ability to "copy and paste" the plays situations would make this a lot easier. There are time I want to build a new situation and make it similiar to a different situation. Right now you have to rebuild each situation from scratch. There is a "copy" button, but it does not work. And the specific plays are not copied, just the situation setup. An example of how I would like to see it work:

DN1, <=1, <= 5 YARDS FROM GOAL--THEN HAVE 5 PLAYS SELECTED.
then copy this same sitution and change the condition from 1st down to 2nd down. When you copy the first one, the same plays are added in the copy to the new situation.

Now, you have to reselect each play for each situation one at a time which can be tedious. This would save a lot of time and make setting up gameplans easy.

Also, I like Deft's idea about selecting more than one play at a time.

I brought this up way back when Maximum Football was release, but no one else picked up on it.

[garysorrell]

I was also under the impression that 'any' would handle situations I dont have a specific situation for.

Thats the way I would have expected it to work. Unless I misunderstand the above .
I want to have a generic 'any' for each down, but as soon as I add a specific situation, like 2nd and short, then that overrides the 'any' in the 2nd and short situation.

Im also with Deft and cbelva, I would love to hold shift and select multiple plays and click a button and have them fill multiple spots in my situation

[Yngvai]

Wow, this thread grew fast.

The ANY situation is not causing my problem. I don't have any ANY'S in my profile at all.

Let me list the 1st down, TIED situations I have in my offensive profile to illustrate...

DN1, TG>5, TIH>10, DFG76-95, TIED
DN1, TG>5, TIH>10, DFG26-75, TIED*
DN1, TG>5, TIH>10, DFG6-25, TIED
DN1, TG>1, TIH>10, DFG<=5, TIED
DN1, TG>1, TIH>10, DFG26-75, TIED
DN1, TG>10, TIH>10, DFG26-75, TIED
DN1, TG>10, TIH>10, DFG76-95, TIED

As mentioned in my initial post, in a 0-0 ball game (TIED), with me on my opponent's 36 yard line (DFG26-75), with more than 10 minutes in the half, the game should call plays that are in the situation I marked with an asterisk. But it does not.

[Marauders]

As mentioned in my initial post, in a 0-0 ball game (TIED), with me on my opponent's 36 yard line (DFG26-75), with more than 10 minutes in the half, the game should call plays that are in the situation I marked with an asterisk. But it does not.

&nbsp;
This is an area we will be testing, so we'll check it out.&nbsp; Perhaps it is a situation&nbsp;with a null (0) score.

[David Winter]

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

The any option could still be used, just change the situations from inclusive to exclusive. It would work better.

Let me play around with these and see what I can come up with. Be aware though that any changes to how the ANY process works is going to mean more work for the end user. The profile is going to require a lot more specific entries to accomplish your goal.

It will also reverse the logic to go against what ANY means. As I stated earlier, ANY means return me all results that match. That's simply how databases work, and these playbooks are just little databases. I think by reversing the logic, it's going to confuse the other 1/2 of the community that expects the ANY option to return all the results.

What I will try is the following;

1. Look for a specific situation first. DN, TG, TIH, DFG, SCORE will all have to match 100%.
2. If that fails (not situation made) I'll have it drop down to what it's doing now, meaning check for situations that might have ANY being used. So DN1, TG>5, TIH>10, DFG76-95, TIED might fail, but DN1, TG>5, TIHANY, DFG76-95, TIED may return a result.

Existing playbooks will likely need to be amended to take into account the change.

I also need to mention that changes like this add to the testing period. The testing group is small and they have lives outside of the game, so they can't test all these large changes over night. The changes to the statistics system is already a very considerable testing project.

thanks
David

[David Winter]

ORIGINAL: Yngvai

As mentioned in my initial post, in a 0-0 ball game (TIED), with me on my opponent's 36 yard line (DFG26-75), with more than 10 minutes in the half, the game should call plays that are in the situation I marked with an asterisk. But it does not.

Please send me, or attach here, your playbook. At the moment I don't think I need the plays just yet, just the playbook database.

thanks
David

[Yngvai]

ORIGINAL: David Winter

ORIGINAL: Yngvai

As mentioned in my initial post, in a 0-0 ball game (TIED), with me on my opponent's 36 yard line (DFG26-75), with more than 10 minutes in the half, the game should call plays that are in the situation I marked with an asterisk. But it does not.

Please send me, or attach here, your playbook. At the moment I don't think I need the plays just yet, just the playbook database.

thanks
David

OK I PMed you a copy

[Scott_WAR]

ORIGINAL: Yngvai

Wow, this thread grew fast.

The ANY situation is not causing my problem. I don't have any ANY'S in my profile at all.

Let me list the 1st down, TIED situations I have in my offensive profile to illustrate...

DN1, TG>5, TIH>10, DFG76-95, TIED
DN1, TG>5, TIH>10, DFG26-75, TIED*
DN1, TG>5, TIH>10, DFG6-25, TIED
DN1, TG>1, TIH>10, DFG<=5, TIED
DN1, TG>1, TIH>10, DFG26-75, TIED
DN1, TG>10, TIH>10, DFG26-75, TIED
DN1, TG>10, TIH>10, DFG76-95, TIED

As mentioned in my initial post, in a 0-0 ball game (TIED), with me on my opponent's 36 yard line (DFG26-75), with more than 10 minutes in the half, the game should call plays that are in the situation I marked with an asterisk. But it does not.

You have this-

DN1, TG>5, TIH>10, DFG26-75, TIED*

and this

DN1, TG>1, TIH>10, DFG26-75, TIED

ON 1rst and 10 both are valid, so according to the way it works now the game will get the pass/run % from the first group listed, but will take a play out of EITHER group since they are both valid.

[Yngvai]

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

ORIGINAL: Yngvai

Wow, this thread grew fast.

The ANY situation is not causing my problem. I don't have any ANY'S in my profile at all.

Let me list the 1st down, TIED situations I have in my offensive profile to illustrate...

DN1, TG>5, TIH>10, DFG76-95, TIED
DN1, TG>5, TIH>10, DFG26-75, TIED*
DN1, TG>5, TIH>10, DFG6-25, TIED
DN1, TG>1, TIH>10, DFG<=5, TIED
DN1, TG>1, TIH>10, DFG26-75, TIED
DN1, TG>10, TIH>10, DFG26-75, TIED
DN1, TG>10, TIH>10, DFG76-95, TIED

As mentioned in my initial post, in a 0-0 ball game (TIED), with me on my opponent's 36 yard line (DFG26-75), with more than 10 minutes in the half, the game should call plays that are in the situation I marked with an asterisk. But it does not.

You have this-

DN1, TG>5, TIH>10, DFG26-75, TIED*

and this

DN1, TG>1, TIH>10, DFG26-75, TIED

ON 1rst and 10 both are valid, so according to the way it works now the game will get the pass/run % from the first group listed, but will take a play out of EITHER group since they are both valid.

I had thought of that possibility but that's not the problem because the plays it's calling are not in *either* group

[Scott_WAR]

And more problems.....

Going back through my playbooks, fixing them, I decided to move my 1rst and ANY in all catagory play group to the very bottom of the situations list, so that the pass/run percentage there wont be used in other more specific groups,.... since the first applicable group is udes to determine the pass run % on the play. Well, when I made a new group, it did NOT appear at the bottom of the situation list but in the middle of it.

So, I really cant use ANY because it will cause the % of the time I run/pass wrong on my more specific groups that are listed below it,...... and since I dont have any real control over where it is now.....


So that is another problem,....... the  game uses the first group it comes across to get the pass/run %, and needs to get it from the most applicable group. This can be done with a LOT of thought put into where each situation is in the list. (Again, exclusive would be so much better).
But without being able to move these situations around in the list after they have been created, makes this extremely frustrating..

[Marauders]

So, I really cant use ANY because it will cause the % of the time I run/pass wrong on my more specific groups that are listed below it,...... and since I dont have any real control over where it is now ...

&nbsp;
You can't use ANY, or you can't use ANY the way that you wanted to use it?
&nbsp;
Please keep in mind that&nbsp;a major reason for having ALL as an option was to take the place of having to create situations for any given area rather than to supplement more detailed situations.&nbsp; It is a feature that was added to help create more general gameplans without having to fill in every situation like had to be done in FBPro.&nbsp; You are concentrating on what it does not do rather than what it can do or what additional benefit it allows when creating gameplans.
&nbsp;
I understand what you would like the command to do.&nbsp; Perhaps&nbsp;it would be easier&nbsp;if ALL was an&nbsp;ALL ELSE command, as that is what many of us thought it was supposed to be, but either way, we have to be able to understand what it does do and make the best use of it in our gameplans.
&nbsp;
Every situation group would be exclusive if >1, >5, and >10 would be changed as I have stated above to be >1-5, >5-10, and >10-15 respectively.&nbsp;&nbsp;The use of ALL would still be optional, and there would be no other groups that would overlap.

[Shaggyra]

ORIGINAL: Marauders
...
Every situation group would be exclusive if >1, >5, and >10 would be changed as I have stated above to be >1-5, >5-10, and >10-15 respectively.  The use of ALL would still be optional, and there would be no other groups that would overlap.

I think this is the solution I like best

[Scott_WAR]

No I cant use 'any' AND get my specific situations to not get overidden by it, because when I&nbsp;creat a '1rst and any in all catagories- run 60%/pass40%' situation&nbsp;to my playbook, instead of appearing at the bottom of the list of situations I have already created, it appears in the middle of the list, so if its 1rst and 10, with less than a minute left with me losing by 3, and I have a situation specifically for that where I pass 100% of the time, but its below where the previously mentioned 1rst and any group is, the first and any group will be used to get the run/pass %,.... in this case 60% run and 40% pass, instead of the situation specific 100% pass group listed below it.
&nbsp;
&nbsp; Unless I start all over with my playbook,....... and if thats what I must do,....this becomes a problem if I create it, make a bunch of situations, and decide to add to it later, since I cant control where the situation groups are in the list.
&nbsp;
&nbsp;

[hack153]

a long time ago i talked about profiles.

the situations can not be too advanced. for example, if you have a 1st and 10 situation in your profile, the profile will not run plays out of a situation of 1st and 10, <1min, 7-10 pts ahead.

i haven't played for about 6 months and i'm hoping that david will take some of the suggestions made a while ago and will keep improving the profiles.

the game is really looking good. it has come a long way since i first got it a year and a half ago. good job to david and his team!

[Marauders]

Scott_WAR stated: No, I cant use 'any' AND get my specific situations to not get overidden by it, because when I creat a '1st and any in all catagories - run 60%/pass40%' situation to my playbook, instead of appearing at the bottom of the list of situations I have already created, it appears in the middle of the list, so if its 1rst and 10, with less than a minute left with me losing by 3, and I have a situation specifically for that where I pass 100% of the time, but its below where the previously mentioned 1rst and any group is, the first and any group will be used to get the run/pass %,.... in this case 60% run and 40% pass, instead of the situation specific 100% pass group listed below it.

I don't believe you understand my previous post. You are still attempting to use ANY up the line of more specific groups. While David is looking into making a change that would allow one to do that and retain the specific group, that was not what the ANY command was originally put in to do. It was put in to cover areas that one was not going to put in more specific situations.

Here is a small example of how ANY would be used as it stands now:

DN1, TGANY, TIHANY, DFGANY, TIED
DN2, TGANY, TIHANY, DFGANY, TIED
DN3, TG>5, TIH>10, DFG76-95, TIED
DN3, TG>5, TIH>10, DFG26-75, TIED
DN3, TG>5, TIH>10, DFG6-25, TIED
DN4, TG>5, TIH>10, DFG76-95, TIED
DN4, TG>5, TIH>10, DFG26-75, TIED
DN4, TG>5, TIH>10, DFG6-25, TIED

Note that the ANY variable does not overlap with more specific groups. On downs 1 and 2 this gameplan doesn't worry about yards to go.

If DN2, TG>10, TIH>10, DFG<=5, TIED was added, these plays would be added to the any plays in that situation as plays available. In this case, one would likely add a few extra long passes to go with the general plays that were part of the ALL group.

Having ANY as an option makes it much easier to define large areas of the gameplan that one would not normally need to be specific with.

I agree that if David can make the change that would make ANY become ANY ELSE (Any unless there is a 100% specific instance found) regarding specific situations, it would allow ANY to be used to cover more areas that could not be covered now. It would allow ANY to fill in the cracks of situations that one doesn't want to be specific but would otherwise overlap specific areas if ANY was used someplace up the tree. This is what you would want it to do, and it would make gameplans easier to design.

This gains more importance considering that the half designator may be in use in the future. If specific situations were not allowed to stand on their own, it would be difficult to use the ANY half indicator without diluting the end of half and end of game specific gameplan groups.

Marauders stated:Every situation group would be exclusive if >1, >5, and >10 would be changed as I have stated above to be >1-5, >5-10, and >10-15 respectively. The use of ALL would still be optional, and there would be no other groups that would overlap.

Shaggyra stated: I think this is the solution I like best.

I asked David about this, and the operators are set up as a case. That means if >15 is true, it will take that and not check >10 .... The code runs down the case until it finds a true condition. That means they are exclusive already, so >1 already means >1-5 ....

This is an important consideration when creating gameplans.

[David Winter]

ORIGINAL: cbelva
I have to agree with Deft. The ability to "copy and paste" the plays situations would make this a lot easier. There are time I want to build a new situation and make it similiar to a different situation. Right now you have to rebuild each situation from scratch. There is a "copy" button, but it does not work. And the specific plays are not copied, just the situation setup. An example of how I would like to see it work:

DN1, <=1, <= 5 YARDS FROM GOAL--THEN HAVE 5 PLAYS SELECTED.
then copy this same sitution and change the condition from 1st down to 2nd down. When you copy the first one, the same plays are added in the copy to the new situation.

Now, you have to reselect each play for each situation one at a time which can be tedious. This would save a lot of time and make setting up gameplans easy.

Also, I like Deft's idea about selecting more than one play at a time.

I brought this up way back when Maximum Football was release, but no one else picked up on it.

This might not be ~exactly~ what you're looking for, but with v2.2 the SAVE AS button on the play group now presents the option to also copy the play groups files over as well. So you can "copy" by opening a play group, changing one of the settings, and saving it as a new group. Then choose whether or not to copy the plays over as well.

thanks
David