Entente Advantage CP Underdog

[wargamer123]

I have notice now after a few matches, even the 1st game I began playing before I even understood 50% of the game that the Entente has the Advantage.

The CP should lose most of the time vs a fairly decent ET player. Assuming no gamey strategy is used... The only hope for the CP is an early victory, which is historical. So far I have lost I think 1 ET game and all the rest look in the bag out of 4 or so... In my CP games even against a newer opponent it is not easy to win, there are always major errors. Discounting that ET just has to survive to win, while the CP has do something miraculous

[hjaco]

I don't completely comply with this.

There can be no argument about the advantages to the Entente but the CP has the initiative and has to use it properly.

Most games ends early so I still have to see an even game going to the end but remember that victory points are halved for each year based on primarily conquest/surrender, morale, city status etc.

An important factor in this discussion is psychological. When will you or your opponent quit the game [&:]

I have made the observation that very few CP players are ready to go early in the defensive against France when the initial offensive has failed to achieve a reasonable basis to build on for a conquest on France. So instead of focusing on limited goals as securing the French raw material hexes and use the initiative on other fronts they continue in a "do" or "die" offensive with the results you have observed.

I have a hypothesis that an east first will give the CP the best long term prospective to sneak out a win in a contest to the end provided they have focus on avoiding a losing attrition battle in the west. I still have to prove that in a game to the end although I am currently trying.

[Lascar]

ORIGINAL: hjaco

I don't completely comply with this.

There can be no argument about the advantages to the Entente but the CP has the initiative and has to use it properly.

Most games ends early so I still have to see an even game going to the end but remember that victory points are halved for each year based on primarily conquest/surrender, morale, city status etc.

An important factor in this discussion is psychological. When will you or your opponent quit the game [&:]

I have made the observation that very few CP players are ready to go early in the defensive against France when the initial offensive has failed to achieve a reasonable basis to build on for a conquest on France. So instead of focusing on limited goals as securing the French raw material hexes and use the initiative on other fronts they continue in a "do" or "die" offensive with the results you have observed.

I have a hypothesis that an east first will give the CP the best long term prospective to sneak out a win in a contest to the end provided they have focus on avoiding a losing attrition battle in the west. I still have to prove that in a game to the end although I am currently trying.

One would think that an east first strategy for the CP would give them the best chance of victory. Even if the CP manages to force the Russian surrender early (1916 or early 1917)other than removing a large enemy force they don't really reap the kind of benefits in terms of securing food and resources to sustain them for a long contest with the remaining powers (France, Britain and America.) The way the game partitions the Russia occupation zone (along the Dniepr)ahistorically denies the Germans access to most of the Russian food and resources areas.

[BossGnome]

However, historically germany did not have the infrastructure required to get much out of the Ukraine, even though they "theoretically" occupied it. Thus, I would argue that the territory that the game gives germany, although yes, innaccurate, does reflect pretty much the economic boons that germany got out of their occupation zone. I would agree that an east first strategy is probably the best option for the CP, since simply not invading belgium and luxemburg help decently on the diplomatic front.

By the way, I was also wondering when VP are tallied in this game? Every turn? Every end of year? If a city falls for one turn and is retaken the next, does it provide VPs to the power that captured it?

[hjaco]

Even if you deplete the Russian food resources before conquest you get sufficient from minor countries especially Romania.

The Ottomans gets the two raw material hexes in the Caucasus which are worth 3 raw material per turn. Add the Romanian and Serbian and you are on your way.

[Franck]

I also believe that the game is advantageuos for the TE. Still, you have possibilities of winning and you should use them.
The East first seems to be the most viable long term. But other kind of victory are also possible. In my last game, I went ALL OUT on France and declared on Italy in the first turn. Italy surrendered on the second turn and I have just taken Paris (First impulse of the third turn). Unfortunetely, Russia is at the doors of Berlin too. But the whole Austrian Army just moved there to opppose the Russian...
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Anyway the interesting thing is that you can try all sort of stuff even tough some time your fighting an uphill battle!
My 3 current games I am CP, 1 I am winning ( I believe ) the other one is uncertain (depend on the Berlin situation). THe last one is at it's first impulse.

[hjaco]

ORIGINAL: BossGnome

I would agree that an east first strategy is probably the best option for the CP, since simply not invading belgium and luxemburg help decently on the diplomatic front.

Huh I didn't state that this is the best strategy for the CP, but that a strategy based on a surrender by Russia in the east be at an outright Russia first or limited offensive in the west followed up rather quickly by an all out assault on Russia would IMO be the best strategy in a game going through to the end.

[Lascar]

ORIGINAL: BossGnome

However, historically germany did not have the infrastructure required to get much out of the Ukraine, even though they "theoretically" occupied it. Thus, I would argue that the territory that the game gives germany, although yes, innaccurate, does reflect pretty much the economic boons that germany got out of their occupation zone. I would agree that an east first strategy is probably the best option for the CP, since simply not invading belgium and luxemburg help decently on the diplomatic front.

By the way, I was also wondering when VP are tallied in this game? Every turn? Every end of year? If a city falls for one turn and is retaken the next, does it provide VPs to the power that captured it?

May be Germany couldn't pull together the infrastructure that late in the war to draw on the Russian food reserves, but if Russia would have capitulated a year earlier than it would seem the Germans would have given it top priority and managed to have significantly increased their extraction of Russian resources. Their national survival would have depended on it.

[hjaco]

A most difficult discussion - would Russia have surrendered that much earlier with a historic Russia first strategy by Germany ? Russia would have been forced into the defensive thereby not launching that many futile offensives as conducted historical to relieve pressure on France so would their casualties and suffering really have been that different ? How would France have reacted and not the least the British ?

[SMK-at-work]

IIRC only the Brusilov offensive was launched to relieve pressure on the West.  IMO the Russians would still ahve attacked where they thought they could get away with it...and would still have suffered the massive casualties. 
 
The question is whether they would have added up to more than they had historically by the end of 1916 including Brusilov?  Arguably it was Brusilov that broke the back of the Russian army - it was only after it that they started suffering the extreme shortages of weapons and equipment.
 
However in any case if het Germans put their resources East then there is no need for offensives to releive pressure in the West....'cos the Germans aren't launching any there!!
 
 

[wargamer123]

Hjaco's argument and several others here fits... East First, sure, but the Armies of the West by this point will be too big, they will be larger than the combined forces of Germany and AustriaHungary and they will own the skies/tech/and be on the verge of diplomatically forcing Italy-USA's hand... Perhaps even take out the OE or attrit so much Germans on Western Border to make it impossible for the Russian Strategy to outright mean any victory. As you said she doesn't get that much for defeating Russia aside from removing the threat and then focusing West... You'd also be be better off knocking out the Balkans, you'd get more for it and just torturing the Russians into being too weak

likewise, leaving the French-British to grow without an initial destructive blow is likewise foolish, they will be like the Russians of WW2 as I said above, best as Hjaco said to remove a portion of that threat when you're able


The game favors the Entente but the Germans do have as was said the initiative and that's it... If they can use that to weild the resources as mentioned and they can deal out a great tactical victory here then there then it is possible for them to win or take the ball into their court, but I have rarely seen this done, since TrenchWarfare takes over and the mobility factor even in the East fades ultra quickly... Digging is quite fast, by mid 1915 most players are dug in so deep you need significant forces to crack them... And Assualt troops-Tanks-Gas are just too expensive to purchase.. One has to be EXTREMELY clever and tricky with the CP.. I have won a game on turn 1 with CP but that was what I call gamey. I have yet to have an easy game with them... But with my ET, I won my 1st game as them or I will soon against a Seasoned Veteran.. I didn't even know how to transport when we started the game, amphibiously thus I was without the BEF nearly the entire French Campaign! But STILL WON

[wargamer123]

 
P.S.
We have to guess that had the Germans had enough time that a portion of that wheat would've gotten home, if we do not assume this then we might do well to remove Raw Materials from the Caucasus and the food from Romania..Reason being, is it would be any easier to transport and use......in fact about the only resources the Germans could use would be in Northern France....
 
The OE shipping tons of Raws to Germany? How? Why? They were having differences aside from the German trained Ottoman Army, when the Turks were trying to create a Asian Empire and the capture of Baku would alienate the Germans
 
1 or 2 Foods per turn given the time to create transport or at least for AH would not be off... That would be enough to alleviate some of the damage but not worth an East First IMO
 
 

[wargamer123]

In a current game I am in, the Entente twice had Paris nearly taken. Though that Siege Stack issue makes is so that Paris is a pain to take... So he never took it... This ultimately cost him the game... Plus he had a huge stack of AH-Germans vs The Italians waiting indefinitely for that, but regardless, France was down to Brest to Paris, nearly 10 subs operating in the North Atlantic sinking the entire British Transport Fleet, but My Industry allowed me to replace it all... and with the USA and Russia Berlin is besieged and half of Germany is falling and now the USA can makeup for any economic shortcommings in Europe...
 
Really by 1917 on even a poorly played ET should win without a CP K'O blow
 
the crime of this game even though it is officially my first ET game ever, I also made about 10 or 15 errors. Something I notice the CP cannot afford to do...not make even 1 error truly if they want to win

[EUBanana]

I think the CPs have to hit both east and west, its just a case of emphasis.  If you don't attack Russia at all, by mid 1915 the purple peril will steamroller the CPs - and ditto if you leave France/England alone.  If France hasn't been bled by the time all Kitchener's pals battalions show up, its game over.

So you have to really push in both directions, with at least limited objectives.  A lot of very valuable hexes in France are near the German border, so those should be taken, no matter what, IMO.  And an attempt to capture Poland seems to be pretty much required, as well.

[Mosby]

So, can the CP player win against the AI in a solo game?

I don't think it bothers me that the CP has a tougher time winning, but if it's like...say the Pac War game by Matrix, where the Japs really can't ever win, I don't see how the game would be any fun.

[EdinHouston]

The CP can definitely win the game solo. In fact once you learn the game, its pretty easy to win. The CP is more of a challenge for the human player than the TE mainly because AI's defend better than they attack, and in this game, winning or losing revolves around how well the CP execute their main offensive.

[ILCK]

ORIGINAL: EdinHouston

The CP can definitely win the game solo. In fact once you learn the game, its pretty easy to win. The CP is more of a challenge for the human player than the TE mainly because AI's defend better than they attack, and in this game, winning or losing revolves around how well the CP execute their main offensive.

The CP is not good as the AI. I've crushed Germany easily by 1917 in several matches while in my most recent game I've taken out the AHE by early 1916.

The TE is a good "starter" side since you have more options have to learn the naval game and have better odds for survival but I think as the human player it'll be as the CP's that my main challenge will exist.