Europe map?

World in Flames is the computer version of Australian Design Group classic board game. World In Flames is a highly detailed game covering the both Europe and Pacific Theaters of Operations during World War II. If you want grand strategy this game is for you.

Moderator: Shannon V. OKeets

marcuswatney
Posts: 279
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 8:07 pm

RE: Europe map?

Post by marcuswatney »

Or maybe they'd actually relish a new situation to explore?  Correcting the Dutch border doesn't alter any mechanics of combat so long as players simultaneously invade the Netherlands.
 
And I wonder how many players have become lazy and not invaded the Netherlands, just because the historical imperative is not there?
 
Do ask Harry, anyway please.
User avatar
Froonp
Posts: 7998
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 8:23 pm
Location: Marseilles, France
Contact:

RE: Europe map?

Post by Froonp »

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney
First, please remember this : when the maps for MWiF were worked on, it was already decided to keep the European part of te WiF FE map as it was, so we had to do with that. Scandinavia was modified because being just at the edge of the map it had some things misplaced for game purposes (surch as Bergen), but not more than that.
CERTAINTIES:
 
THE NETHERLANDS:  A nation's capital is defined as its seat of government, not its largest or most famous city.  Thus the capital of Australia is Canberra not Sydney.  And the capital of the Netherlands is The Hague not Amsterdam.  If you look at the German drop-zones when they attacked the Netherlands, they put a lot of effort into capturing The Hague (and the Queen), and ignored Amsterdam.  Fortunately, correcting this error is simple, as both Amsterdam and the Hague are in the same hex.
I could add the "The Hague" name (well, the place is already cluttered enough IMO), but not change the capital.
BORNHOLM: Bornholm is Danish and should be SE of Malmo.  It was 'liberated' by the Russians in 1945, and there were some worries they would not give it back.  They did.
This island could have been drawn more to the south of where it is, but placing it in the hex to the south would be wrong too. So we did not change it, according to what is said above.
MEMEL: Memel was a part of Lithuania until annexed by Germany on 23 March 1939 (it had been annexed by Lithuania in 1923).  Since the game includes such features as the Sudetenland, implying a pre-war start, Memel should also be noted as able to change hands.
Memel is German at game's start, S/O 39. Could be changed for a game starting earlier, but it is not MWiF product 1.
SOUTHAMPTON: Southampton is very close to Portsmouth, inland and to the north of the Isle of Wight.  Perhaps for game purposes it needs to be in its own hex separate from Portsmouth.  If so, perhaps the English coastline (and the Isle of Wight) could be shifted a bit westward?  Note that the forest hex represents the New Forest, which is actually west of Southampton.
I'll see at pushing Southampton more to the edge of the hex. I can't do nothing for the forest though as I have no evidence that it represent the New Forest. IMHO it represents the fact that England should have 1 hex of forest somewhere (from the density of forest land in England compared to the number of hexes). The designer have placed it here for a reason I don't know.
ISLES OF SCILLY: missing.
Sorry. I would have placed them if I had designed the map.
RYBACHI PENINSULA: remove the red line NE hexside of Petsamo.  The peninsula was shared between Finland and USSR.  Is the glacier-type terrain between Petsamo and Murmansk impassable?  They did try to fight here, though not very effectively.
It is already as you say. The Terrain is Tundra. It is as mountain for movement cost, and as clear for combat effects.
HANKO: On my atlas, English spelling is Hango (leased to USSR after Winter War).
I believe someone already asked this, but I forgot. I put it on ly to do list (I'll do after I verified).
VYBORG: On my British 1936/1942 map, Viipuri.
There already were much debate about this one, and in the end we let it this way, because of the WiF FE map heritage.
FINNISH BORDERLANDS:  My 1942 atlas shows the one around Lake Ladoga is far too big.  The problem is that Lake Ladoga is badly drawn: it is more rectangular than square.  Along the north cost of the lake, the Soviets annexed only a corridor varying in width between 10 and 20 miles.  All they wanted was the railway line that comes up from Leningrad, and which skirts the lake.
Also already debated, but game play reasons led to have it that way. Also, the Lake Ladoga on MWiF map is not square.
DANZIG: Danzig was not part of the Polish Corridor, being a free city under the League of Nations.  After all, the Polish Corridor was a corridor owned by Poland leading to the sea at Gdynia.
Can't do nothing here.
Anyway, the Germans invaded it, so having it part of Poland is not a big deal. Making it a Free City would require a lot of work in defining a new country for its hex, and then we would let the Germans invade it anyway.
SLOVAKIA:  Slovakia became an 'independent' country (capital Bratislava) and a German minor ally in March 1939 as Germany invaded Bohemia-Moravia (what is now the Czech Republic): if the Sudetenland warrants a border, so too should Slovakia with Bohemia-Moravia.  The northeast hexes of Hungary (Ruthenia) were actually a part of Slovakia until autumn 1938 - at the time of Munich, Slovakia had a border with Romania.  So these hexes should be shown as negotiable, just like the Sudetenland.
Sudetenland has a border because there is a rule for that in DoD, which is not part of MWiF, but the designer prefered to keep in anyway in case of future MWiF products. I can't add the borders, but I'll see if I can add the names though.
CHERSO: southest of Pola, principal island (Cherso) was Italian.
You mean the island north of Cres ? It is in the same hex as the Yugoslavian mainland, so we can't have it another nationality than the rest of the hex. Sorry, kind of Bornholm problem here too.
AEGEAN:  Mytilene (Lesbos) is Greek.  The only Turkish island in the Aegean is Imbros (not shown, it is east of Lemnos).  The unnamed island NE of Leros is Samos and very Greek - better to remove it than suggest it is Turkish, causing our Greek friends offence.
Mytilene was corrected, as really blatantly wrong. For Leros, same problem as Bornholm and Cherso. Same hex as the mainland which is Turkish. Can do nothing here.
SMYRNA: After capture by Turks in the twenties, renamed Izmir
I'll look on my 40s map how it was named on them.
GREECE: Patras not Patrai
I'll correct that.
MIDDLE EAST: In 1936/1942 Jordan's name was Transjordan, because it was over the Jordan river. 
Well, I hesitated changing that too when I was editing the map. I'm still hesitant. I know it is the right name for the moment. Steve would you agree ?
It took over the West Bank (rather reluctantly, as the Bedouin are very different from the Palestinians) only between 1948 and 1967.  The map as drawn at present suggests Jordan includes the West Bank: might be better to give that hex to Palestine.  I really don't think Lebanon's hills warrant mountain status: the mountains end in the hex north of Alexandretta.  I confirm that Tel Aviv existed in 1936: on my map it is shown as a suburb of Jaffa.
Can't change the mountain.
NORTH AFRICA: Fez is a significant Moroccan city.
I added the name, but did not dare add the city for the game play effects.
There was a short rail-line south from Algiers, and a longer one south from Constantine.
I'll see that on my 1939-1944 maps.
The Tunisian Chott extends into Algeria.
I'll see that too.
I agree with the change of Er Rif to Spanish Morocco.  By 1936, International Settlement of Tangier had shrunk to about the size of Gibraltar.  More accurate to have it moved one hex west.  I agree that it should be considered de facto under Spanish control.
Rabat a bit too close to border with Spanish Morocco (relative to Casablanca).
I'll try to move it more to the SE of the hex. The WiF FE map has it more to the SE too. Maybe it will be a problem for the railway (trying to trace in the sea), I'll see.

Thanks for the comments. No time now to answer your other post.
Shannon V. OKeets
Posts: 22165
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 11:51 pm
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Contact:

RE: Europe map?

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: Froonp
ORIGINAL: marcuswatney
First, please remember this : when the maps for MWiF were worked on, it was already decided to keep the European part of te WiF FE map as it was, so we had to do with that. Scandinavia was modified because being just at the edge of the map it had some things misplaced for game purposes (surch as Bergen), but not more than that.
CERTAINTIES:
 
THE NETHERLANDS:  A nation's capital is defined as its seat of government, not its largest or most famous city.  Thus the capital of Australia is Canberra not Sydney.  And the capital of the Netherlands is The Hague not Amsterdam.  If you look at the German drop-zones when they attacked the Netherlands, they put a lot of effort into capturing The Hague (and the Queen), and ignored Amsterdam.  Fortunately, correcting this error is simple, as both Amsterdam and the Hague are in the same hex.
I could add the "The Hague" name (well, the place is already cluttered enough IMO), but not change the capital.
BORNHOLM: Bornholm is Danish and should be SE of Malmo.  It was 'liberated' by the Russians in 1945, and there were some worries they would not give it back.  They did.
This island could have been drawn more to the south of where it is, but placing it in the hex to the south would be wrong too. So we did not change it, according to what is said above.
MEMEL: Memel was a part of Lithuania until annexed by Germany on 23 March 1939 (it had been annexed by Lithuania in 1923).  Since the game includes such features as the Sudetenland, implying a pre-war start, Memel should also be noted as able to change hands.
Memel is German at game's start, S/O 39. Could be changed for a game starting earlier, but it is not MWiF product 1.
SOUTHAMPTON: Southampton is very close to Portsmouth, inland and to the north of the Isle of Wight.  Perhaps for game purposes it needs to be in its own hex separate from Portsmouth.  If so, perhaps the English coastline (and the Isle of Wight) could be shifted a bit westward?  Note that the forest hex represents the New Forest, which is actually west of Southampton.
I'll see at pushing Southampton more to the edge of the hex. I can't do nothing for the forest though as I have no evidence that it represent the New Forest. IMHO it represents the fact that England should have 1 hex of forest somewhere (from the density of forest land in England compared to the number of hexes). The designer have placed it here for a reason I don't know.
ISLES OF SCILLY: missing.
Sorry. I would have placed them if I had designed the map.
RYBACHI PENINSULA: remove the red line NE hexside of Petsamo.  The peninsula was shared between Finland and USSR.  Is the glacier-type terrain between Petsamo and Murmansk impassable?  They did try to fight here, though not very effectively.
It is already as you say. The Terrain is Tundra. It is as mountain for movement cost, and as clear for combat effects.
HANKO: On my atlas, English spelling is Hango (leased to USSR after Winter War).
I believe someone already asked this, but I forgot. I put it on ly to do list (I'll do after I verified).
VYBORG: On my British 1936/1942 map, Viipuri.
There already were much debate about this one, and in the end we let it this way, because of the WiF FE map heritage.
FINNISH BORDERLANDS:  My 1942 atlas shows the one around Lake Ladoga is far too big.  The problem is that Lake Ladoga is badly drawn: it is more rectangular than square.  Along the north cost of the lake, the Soviets annexed only a corridor varying in width between 10 and 20 miles.  All they wanted was the railway line that comes up from Leningrad, and which skirts the lake.
Also already debated, but game play reasons led to have it that way. Also, the Lake Ladoga on MWiF map is not square.
DANZIG: Danzig was not part of the Polish Corridor, being a free city under the League of Nations.  After all, the Polish Corridor was a corridor owned by Poland leading to the sea at Gdynia.
Can't do nothing here.
Anyway, the Germans invaded it, so having it part of Poland is not a big deal. Making it a Free City would require a lot of work in defining a new country for its hex, and then we would let the Germans invade it anyway.
SLOVAKIA:  Slovakia became an 'independent' country (capital Bratislava) and a German minor ally in March 1939 as Germany invaded Bohemia-Moravia (what is now the Czech Republic): if the Sudetenland warrants a border, so too should Slovakia with Bohemia-Moravia.  The northeast hexes of Hungary (Ruthenia) were actually a part of Slovakia until autumn 1938 - at the time of Munich, Slovakia had a border with Romania.  So these hexes should be shown as negotiable, just like the Sudetenland.
Sudetenland has a border because there is a rule for that in DoD, which is not part of MWiF, but the designer prefered to keep in anyway in case of future MWiF products. I can't add the borders, but I'll see if I can add the names though.
CHERSO: southest of Pola, principal island (Cherso) was Italian.
You mean the island north of Cres ? It is in the same hex as the Yugoslavian mainland, so we can't have it another nationality than the rest of the hex. Sorry, kind of Bornholm problem here too.
AEGEAN:  Mytilene (Lesbos) is Greek.  The only Turkish island in the Aegean is Imbros (not shown, it is east of Lemnos).  The unnamed island NE of Leros is Samos and very Greek - better to remove it than suggest it is Turkish, causing our Greek friends offence.
Mytilene was corrected, as really blatantly wrong. For Leros, same problem as Bornholm and Cherso. Same hex as the mainland which is Turkish. Can do nothing here.
SMYRNA: After capture by Turks in the twenties, renamed Izmir
I'll look on my 40s map how it was named on them.
GREECE: Patras not Patrai
I'll correct that.
MIDDLE EAST: In 1936/1942 Jordan's name was Transjordan, because it was over the Jordan river. 
Well, I hesitated changing that too when I was editing the map. I'm still hesitant. I know it is the right name for the moment. Steve would you agree ?
It took over the West Bank (rather reluctantly, as the Bedouin are very different from the Palestinians) only between 1948 and 1967.  The map as drawn at present suggests Jordan includes the West Bank: might be better to give that hex to Palestine.  I really don't think Lebanon's hills warrant mountain status: the mountains end in the hex north of Alexandretta.  I confirm that Tel Aviv existed in 1936: on my map it is shown as a suburb of Jaffa.
Can't change the mountain.
NORTH AFRICA: Fez is a significant Moroccan city.
I added the name, but did not dare add the city for the game play effects.
There was a short rail-line south from Algiers, and a longer one south from Constantine.
I'll see that on my 1939-1944 maps.
The Tunisian Chott extends into Algeria.
I'll see that too.
I agree with the change of Er Rif to Spanish Morocco.  By 1936, International Settlement of Tangier had shrunk to about the size of Gibraltar.  More accurate to have it moved one hex west.  I agree that it should be considered de facto under Spanish control.
Rabat a bit too close to border with Spanish Morocco (relative to Casablanca).
I'll try to move it more to the SE of the hex. The WiF FE map has it more to the SE too. Maybe it will be a problem for the railway (trying to trace in the sea), I'll see.

Thanks for the comments. No time now to answer your other post.
Transjordan is ok by me. The name sounds familiar.
Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.
User avatar
Froonp
Posts: 7998
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 8:23 pm
Location: Marseilles, France
Contact:

RE: Europe map?

Post by Froonp »

I don't think there was (or is) any oil around Mosul: it's all around Kirkuk.
You're right about that. I believe that the southern Iraqi oil represents that oil resources.

WiF FE Iraq map is quite bad, as Iraq on the WiF FE map is on the edge of 2 maps who are not the same scale. So unifying the map under one scale in MWiF was quite difficult, and required a couple of changes on the European part of the Map (example : Mosul is 1 hex south of its position in WiF FE).

Maybe it require a bit more work to be better. I did a little research, and can propose that to you. This is very crude but roughly shows what I propose to make the Kirkuk area right. I did not check on my 1940-1944 atlases to see if the railway is correct, I'll check tonight at home, but anyway it needs to be a railway to Kirkuk.

Image
Attachments
Iraqcopie.jpg
Iraqcopie.jpg (186.79 KiB) Viewed 277 times
User avatar
Froonp
Posts: 7998
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 8:23 pm
Location: Marseilles, France
Contact:

RE: Europe map?

Post by Froonp »

Close up.

Image
Attachments
Iraqcopie2.jpg
Iraqcopie2.jpg (144.17 KiB) Viewed 277 times
Gendarme
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 5:32 pm
Location: Chicago, IL, USA

RE: Europe map?

Post by Gendarme »

Add Elba to the list.  The little mountain isle between northern tip of Corsica and Italy.  It's only 10 km off the Tuscan coast, and is Italian (and was in 1939), but on the Wif and MWif maps the border puts it with Corsica making it French. Just move Elba a little bit east to be on the correct side of the red border line, perhaps?

I realize however that it has zero effect on anything in game play.  But since we are discussing small changes on the map for added accuracy...

Anthony DeChristopher
User avatar
Froonp
Posts: 7998
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 8:23 pm
Location: Marseilles, France
Contact:

RE: Europe map?

Post by Froonp »

ORIGINAL: Froonp
HANKO: On my atlas, English spelling is Hango (leased to USSR after Winter War).
I believe someone already asked this, but I forgot. I put it on ly to do list (I'll do after I verified).
Look, if I could be shown more evidence of that, I'd be interested. Because when I look at wikipedia, it looks like Hanko is the right name (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanko), and when I look at my 1935 or 1944 map, it is written Hango on the 1944 one, and Hanko on the 1935 one.
User avatar
Froonp
Posts: 7998
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 8:23 pm
Location: Marseilles, France
Contact:

RE: Europe map?

Post by Froonp »

ORIGINAL: Froonp
I don't think there was (or is) any oil around Mosul: it's all around Kirkuk.
You're right about that. I believe that the southern Iraqi oil represents that oil resources.

WiF FE Iraq map is quite bad, as Iraq on the WiF FE map is on the edge of 2 maps who are not the same scale. So unifying the map under one scale in MWiF was quite difficult, and required a couple of changes on the European part of the Map (example : Mosul is 1 hex south of its position in WiF FE).

Maybe it require a bit more work to be better. I did a little research, and can propose that to you. This is very crude but roughly shows what I propose to make the Kirkuk area right. I did not check on my 1940-1944 atlases to see if the railway is correct, I'll check tonight at home, but anyway it needs to be a railway to Kirkuk.
I've checked my 1940s atlases tonight and this is OK as I drew it, except that the east railway don't go farther than Kirkuk.
Edit : Especially the Baghdad - Mosul railway that is on the west bank of the river from start to end.
So, opinions on that Iraqi variation ?
User avatar
lomyrin
Posts: 3741
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2005 7:17 pm
Location: San Diego

RE: Europe map?

Post by lomyrin »

ORIGINAL: Froonp
ORIGINAL: Froonp
HANKO: On my atlas, English spelling is Hango (leased to USSR after Winter War).
I believe someone already asked this, but I forgot. I put it on ly to do list (I'll do after I verified).
Look, if I could be shown more evidence of that, I'd be interested. Because when I look at wikipedia, it looks like Hanko is the right name (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanko), and when I look at my 1935 or 1944 map, it is written Hango on the 1944 one, and Hanko on the 1935 one.

As I recollect it is the swedish language 'Hangö' that was what the area was known as in the late forties and fifities.

Lars
User avatar
Froonp
Posts: 7998
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 8:23 pm
Location: Marseilles, France
Contact:

RE: Europe map?

Post by Froonp »

ORIGINAL: Froonp
ORIGINAL: Froonp
I don't think there was (or is) any oil around Mosul: it's all around Kirkuk.
You're right about that. I believe that the southern Iraqi oil represents that oil resources.

WiF FE Iraq map is quite bad, as Iraq on the WiF FE map is on the edge of 2 maps who are not the same scale. So unifying the map under one scale in MWiF was quite difficult, and required a couple of changes on the European part of the Map (example : Mosul is 1 hex south of its position in WiF FE).

Maybe it require a bit more work to be better. I did a little research, and can propose that to you. This is very crude but roughly shows what I propose to make the Kirkuk area right. I did not check on my 1940-1944 atlases to see if the railway is correct, I'll check tonight at home, but anyway it needs to be a railway to Kirkuk.
I've checked my 1940s atlases tonight and this is OK as I drew it, except that the east railway don't go farther than Kirkuk.
Edit : Especially the Baghdad - Mosul railway that is on the west bank of the river from start to end.
So, opinions on that Iraqi variation ?
Look, you should not have me started on that. I did more researches on Iraq in 1940-1945, and the railways & oil resources should look like that (without departing too much from the WiF FE maps) :

Opinions ?

Steve ?
Can I do that ?

Image
Attachments
Iraqcopy.jpg
Iraqcopy.jpg (177.96 KiB) Viewed 277 times
Shannon V. OKeets
Posts: 22165
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 11:51 pm
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Contact:

RE: Europe map?

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: Froonp
ORIGINAL: Froonp
ORIGINAL: Froonp


You're right about that. I believe that the southern Iraqi oil represents that oil resources.

WiF FE Iraq map is quite bad, as Iraq on the WiF FE map is on the edge of 2 maps who are not the same scale. So unifying the map under one scale in MWiF was quite difficult, and required a couple of changes on the European part of the Map (example : Mosul is 1 hex south of its position in WiF FE).

Maybe it require a bit more work to be better. I did a little research, and can propose that to you. This is very crude but roughly shows what I propose to make the Kirkuk area right. I did not check on my 1940-1944 atlases to see if the railway is correct, I'll check tonight at home, but anyway it needs to be a railway to Kirkuk.
I've checked my 1940s atlases tonight and this is OK as I drew it, except that the east railway don't go farther than Kirkuk.
Edit : Especially the Baghdad - Mosul railway that is on the west bank of the river from start to end.
So, opinions on that Iraqi variation ?
Look, you should not have me started on that. I did more researches on Iraq in 1940-1945, and the railways & oil resources should look like that (without departing too much from the WiF FE maps) :

Opinions ?

Steve ?
Can I do that ?

Image
Yes.

As long as we do not add or subtract resources or change their country or type (oil/non-oil), I am willing to accept modifications that are more historically accurate.

Clearly correcting the rail lines doesn't bother me, based on the many other changes you have found justified.

Europe, of course, is an exception. But even there, changes around the ragged edges, such as in Iraq, seem reasonable.

===

You were going to change the country designations as to which ones are on the "Pacific map". Did I miss those?
Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.
User avatar
Froonp
Posts: 7998
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 8:23 pm
Location: Marseilles, France
Contact:

RE: Europe map?

Post by Froonp »

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
You were going to change the country designations as to which ones are on the "Pacific map". Did I miss those?
I did them. I'm sending you the file in half an hour or so.
Shannon V. OKeets
Posts: 22165
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 11:51 pm
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Contact:

RE: Europe map?

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

Here is Iraq with Patrice's revisions.

Image
Attachments
Iraq013020081.jpg
Iraq013020081.jpg (322.78 KiB) Viewed 277 times
Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.
Smiffus64
Posts: 105
Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2004 5:14 am
Location: Delft, the Netherlands

RE: Europe map?

Post by Smiffus64 »

Re. The Hague and Amsterdam. Amsterdam is the capital of the Netherlands, however the seat of government is in the Hague.
User avatar
Peter Stauffenberg
Posts: 403
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 10:04 am
Location: Oslo, Norway

RE: Europe map?

Post by Peter Stauffenberg »

While I agree with most of the issues mentioned by marcuswatney about how to change the European map, I see that it can be hard to do for game purposes.

One example is the hex west of Düsseldorf. I agree that this one should have been Dutch, but it's a resource hex and changing the border would mean the Germans start the game with a resource less unless the resource is moved. Such major changes to the WIFFE can only be done my Harry imho.

I also agree that Luxembourg should have been a separate hex west of Saarbrücken, but maybe a compromise could be to let it be part of Belgium borderwise, but rather write the text Luxembourg with a small font, just as we did for the Ardennes. Then we won't change the map gamewise, but we indicate where Luxembourg is.  Is that possible?

I also agree that Smyrna should be renamed Izmir. Smyrna is the Greek name for the city and Izmir the Turkish name. I think it changed officially in the 1920's.

I also agree that Bornholm is Danish and should be in the hex SE of Malmö and not part of the Swedish hex east of Malmö. But if we don't want that mistake to be part of the MWIF map and not want to change the WIFFE European map then it's maybe easier to just delete Bornholm. Then no Danes would be annoyed because MWIF shows Bornholm as Swedish. [:D]

I believe every hex based war game must make compromises and will never be 100% accurate. I could have nitpicked a lot of minor details e. g. about the map design of Norway, but know it's not fruitful to do so. Sometimes you just have to make a choice and hope the error is as little as possible. Sometimes you decide to do something that's deliberately not correct, but necessary for game play purposes. One example is the oversized Finnish borderlands just north of Leningrad. It was necessary to give Russia a reason to declare war upon Finland even though the borderlands shouldn't be so wide.

So I think it's fine to correct something that's positively wrong, especially when it's only cosmetical and won't change game play. I also feel we can more easily change the map outside the WIFFE European map. This is because no WIFFER's except people being on this forum have seen the map using the European map scale. But they're very familiar with the WIFFE European map and will be very critical if the MWIF map is different here from the official WIFFE map.

So I think that all map changes made to the European map should be accepted by Harry so he can add them to the official WIF errata before we make the change. E. g. changing the hex west of Düsseldorf to a Dutch hex should only be done by Harry after the resource has been moved to another German hex. But I'm 99% certain Harry won't do that because the people are so familiar with the border as is. I don't think it will affect game play in a positive way to change the hex control.  I believe 99% of the German players will attack the Netherlands too when they intend to invade Belgium and France. 
User avatar
composer99
Posts: 2931
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 8:00 am
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Contact:

RE: Europe map?

Post by composer99 »

Further to Borger's comments, it is fair to say that the border lines drawn out by the WiF design team on the WiF:FE maps are not historically incorrect because the designers can't be bothered to read their maps. It seems to me that it is a deliberate design decision to have a three-hex (e.g. approx 300 km) border between Germany & Belgium.
 
Also, my understanding is that German players very rarely attack the Netherlands & Belgium simultaneously - that gives the CW too much in the way of opportunity to stuff units into Rotterdam or Antwerp (or both!), which could badly slow up the German campaign against the French.
 
Instead, Germany usually attacks the Netherlands first, and then attacks Belgium. It is less common but not unusual for Germany to bypass attacking the Dutch, but in WiF this is not "lazy" - it denies the CW a bunch of Dutch ships, loads of Dutch convoys, and a resource in Dutch Guyana, which on the whole is actually rather sensible.
 
This ordering of attacks is imposed by the scale of the game, action limits, and the ZoC mechanics and I imagine is best regarded as a necessary compromise of historical accuracy for the sake of gameplay.
~ Composer99
Shannon V. OKeets
Posts: 22165
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 11:51 pm
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Contact:

RE: Europe map?

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

I agree with Borger's and Christopher's comments.
Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.
marcuswatney
Posts: 279
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 8:07 pm

RE: Europe map?

Post by marcuswatney »

ORIGINAL: Smiffus64

Re. The Hague and Amsterdam. Amsterdam is the capital of the Netherlands, however the seat of government is in the Hague.
The seat of government defines the capital, since the word comes from Latin 'capus' the head. I know this is an on-going problem in the Netherlands, with different tourist sites even today claiming the honour for their preferred city. The best compromise I have found is on one tourist web site which, with impressive diplomacy, calls The Hague the Political Capital and Amsterdam the Cultural Capital.

Sadly, in life we don't get to choose our capitals. Many are smaller and more boring than neighbouring famous cities. Think Ottawa, Canberra, Brasilia.

Perhaps the starkest example of this is Vichy France. Vichy is a tiny spa town, dwarfed by Marseilles and Lyons. yet the unoccupied zone is known to history as Vichy France, because that was the seat of Petain's government. Ergo, the capital of The Netherlands is The Hague.
marcuswatney
Posts: 279
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 8:07 pm

RE: Europe map?

Post by marcuswatney »

Regarding Bornholm and, more importantly, the Greek island of Samos which is shown as Turkish ... I do think it very important that where for game-play reasons these things cannot be changed, then the island should be obliterated.  The Greeks even today are very sensitive about anything Turkish.
 
I assume Mytilene = Lesbos will have its border moved to show it as Greek, as it occupies a hex alone.
 
I didn't mean to suggest there was any problem with Leros.  I believe it was under Italian control as part of the Dodecanese.  Since it was the location of a famous British airborne attack, we have to be careful to get Leros right.
marcuswatney
Posts: 279
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 8:07 pm

RE: Europe map?

Post by marcuswatney »

ITALY

Adriatic: The pair of islands presently marked 'Cres (Yug)' were Cherso and Lussin, both Italian (and closer to Pola than marked). By Cres I presume you mean Krk (sic - don't you just love Serbo-Croat's indifference to vowels?) which was Yugoslavian and is the little island nestling up against the mainland E of Pola ... so no problems there.

Monte Cassino: I suggest you drop the 'Monte'. Monte Cassino was the monastery at the top of the mountain famously held by the falshirmjaegers and destroyed by the RAF. But Cassino, where the bulk of the ordinary fighting took place was a town in the valley overlooked by the monastery. Since the hex is not depicted as the mountain but as the valley, it would be better to drop the 'Monte'.

Elba: Elba (presently shown SW of Leghorn) is Italian but much closer to the Italian coastline than shown. I suggest you either move the island one hex E or obliterate it as irrelevant.
Post Reply

Return to “World in Flames”