CHS Coming up 18 short of Zeros?

[GaryChildress]

In CHS 2.08 I count a total of 310 A6M2s in the game. Default production is set at 104 A6M2s per month. Therefore by March 1942 the Japanese should have a total of 726 A6M2s produced in the game.

According to Francillon's book on Japanese aircraft Japan probably produced a total of 837 Zeros between March 41 to March 42. It would appear that CHS comes up 111 planes short for the year of production. Granted, that may be all well by way of operational losses leading up to December 1941, however, it also states in the book that...

When the war in the Pacific broke out, the Japanese Navy had a total of 521 carrier fighters on strength of which 328 were A6M2s equipping most of its first-line units.

Francillon, page 365.

It therefore appears to me that CHS is 18 Zeros short, the size of an escort carrier daitai. [:)]

[Nomad]

Aren't you glad you have your own mod so you can fix these things? [8D]

[treespider]

Weren't those in the daitai that engaged the Nimitz's CAG? You may say it never happened but do you really know for sure....

[goodboyladdie]

ORIGINAL: treespider

Weren't those in the daitai that engaged the Nimitz's CAG? You may say it never happened but do you really know for sure....

Blimey! This game models everything! [:D]

[el cid again]

Actually, 18 seems like a reasonable number to have been delivered to the Navy, but not yet assigned to any unit. Gamers may tend to assign everything that comes off the line - and in WITP it goes all the way to the most distant field unit instantly - but IRL planes will spend some time in depot unallocated, and then more time in transit. If CHS is this close - it is virtually dead on right about the numbers that could/would be fielded.

[Nomad]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Actually, 18 seems like a reasonable number to have been delivered to the Navy, but not yet assigned to any unit. Gamers may tend to assign everything that comes off the line - and in WITP it goes all the way to the most distant field unit instantly - but IRL planes will spend some time in depot unallocated, and then more time in transit. If CHS is this close - it is virtually dead on right about the numbers that could/would be fielded.

Then they should show up in the aircraft pool - since they don't, they are missing.

[el cid again]

If in the pool, they would instantly allocate to very distant units on the very first day of the war, and not be good simulation. Where they should appear is in the initial production rate - which should be about 18 higher than whatever the estimated initial production is - so you get them over a month or so of time. Ideally the initial production rate should include two values: damaged and undamaged production. The Dec 41 rate plus 18 should be the total for undamaged. The maximum desired rate minus this value should be the damaged rate. That way you will get a ramp up from historical start plus 18 to maximum historical rate.

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

If in the pool, they would instantly allocate to very distant units on the very first day of the war, and not be good simulation. Where they should appear is in the initial production rate - which should be about 18 higher than whatever the estimated initial production is - so you get them over a month or so of time. Ideally the initial production rate should include two values: damaged and undamaged production. The Dec 41 rate plus 18 should be the total for undamaged. The maximum desired rate minus this value should be the damaged rate. That way you will get a ramp up from historical start plus 18 to maximum historical rate.

It is the first turn of the game so I would think one might be able to assume that the Japanese could have had enough time since the last factory delivery of Zeros to allocate them to their desired units by December 7. As far as the way the replacement pools works, there isn't much that can be done about that in the game without some extraordinary house rules in place. But at least it works both ways, the Allies can take P-40s off the production line and give them instantly to forces in SEA.

[el cid again]

I assume the last factory delivery was the day before. I do not assume there was either time for inspection nor for transit. Which is the point of my comments. WITP is weak on the supply train end - and in no case worse than for aircraft - where one can make instantaneous factory to field deliveries (first mentioned to me by Joe Wilkerson). It is very reasonable for there to be some not yet delivered, and not reasonable at all that every last one was. Let us assume that November production made it to the field - but December did not - as a working foundation for analysis - and a very optimistic one.

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: el cid again
Let us assume that November production made it to the field - but December did not - as a working foundation for analysis - and a very optimistic one.

Works for me. [:)]

[timtom]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

In CHS 2.08 I count a total of 310 A6M2s in the game. Default production is set at 104 A6M2s per month. Therefore by March 1942 the Japanese should have a total of 726 A6M2s produced in the game.

According to Francillon's book on Japanese aircraft Japan probably produced a total of 837 Zeros between March 41 to March 42. It would appear that CHS comes up 111 planes short for the year of production. Granted, that may be all well by way of operational losses leading up to December 1941, however, it also states in the book that...

I'm sure you meant to write between March 39 to March 42

Mikesh gives somewhat different figures: 749 A6M's incl. all prototypes, 676 by Mitsubishi and 73 by Nakajima. The sticking point is the number produced by the latter. Total production for 11/41 is given as 52, 12/41 as 66. (Mikesh, Robert: Zero: Combat and Development of Japan's Legendary Mitsubishi A6M Zero Fighter. Motorbooks 1994, p.124-125)

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

When the war in the Pacific broke out, the Japanese Navy had a total of 521 carrier fighters on strength of which 328 were A6M2s equipping most of its first-line units.

Francillon, page 365.

It therefore appears to me that CHS is 18 Zeros short, the size of an escort carrier daitai. [:)]

Francillon doesn't state where he got the 328 figure from, but Okumiya & Horikoshi just happens to give the figure 328 (Okumiya, Masatake & Horikoshi, Jiro: Zero! The Story of the Japanese Navy Air Force 1937-45. Cassell 1957, p.28-29), or 322 (p.31). 3rd & Tainan Ku's are each credited with 92 A6M's, while the Genzan Ku "attachment" is creditted with 36 A6M, ie 220 total.

By contrast, Hata & Izawa gives the effective strength of 3rd & Tainan Ku's as 45 A6M's each, and that of the the Yamada detachment as 25, ie 115 total (Hata, Ikuhiko & Izawa, Yasuho: Japanese Naval Aces and Fighter Units in World War II. Airlife 1990 (1975), p.123, 132, 143).

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: timtom

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

In CHS 2.08 I count a total of 310 A6M2s in the game. Default production is set at 104 A6M2s per month. Therefore by March 1942 the Japanese should have a total of 726 A6M2s produced in the game.

According to Francillon's book on Japanese aircraft Japan probably produced a total of 837 Zeros between March 41 to March 42. It would appear that CHS comes up 111 planes short for the year of production. Granted, that may be all well by way of operational losses leading up to December 1941, however, it also states in the book that...

I'm sure you meant to write between March 39 to March 42

Mikesh gives somewhat different figures: 749 A6M's incl. all prototypes, 676 by Mitsubishi and 73 by Nakajima. The sticking point is the number produced by the latter. 11/41 production is given as 52, 12/41 as 66. (Mikesh, Robert: Zero: Combat and Development of Japan's Legendary Mitsubishi A6M Zero Fighter. Motorbooks 1994, p.124-125)

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

When the war in the Pacific broke out, the Japanese Navy had a total of 521 carrier fighters on strength of which 328 were A6M2s equipping most of its first-line units.

Francillon, page 365.

It therefore appears to me that CHS is 18 Zeros short, the size of an escort carrier daitai. [:)]

Francillon doesn't state where he got the 328 figure from, but Okumiya & Horikoshi just happens to give the figure 328 (Okumiya, Masatake & Horikoshi, Jiro: Zero! The Story of the Japanese Navy Air Force 1937-45. Cassell 1957, p.28-29), or 322 (p.31). 3rd & Tainan Ku's are each credited with 92 A6M's, while the Genzan Ku "attachment" is creditted with 36 A6M, ie 220 total.

By contrast, Hata & Izawa gives the effective strength of 3rd & Tainan Ku's as 45 A6M's each, and that of the the Yamada detachment as 25, ie 115 total (Hata, Ikuhiko & Izawa, Yasuho: Japanese Naval Aces and Fighter Units in World War II. Airlife 1990 (1975), p.123, 132, 143).

Woops. You're right March 39-March 42. [:o]

Oh well. I guess I'll leave out the 18 Zeros if they are too controversial.