Europe map?

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

ITALY

Adriatic: The pair of islands presently marked 'Cres (Yug)' were Cherso and Lussin, both Italian (and closer to Pola than marked). By Cres I presume you mean Krk (sic - don't you just love Serbo-Croat's indifference to vowels?) which was Yugoslavian and is the little island nestling up against the mainland E of Pola ... so no problems there.

Here the map is as he original map is, I changed nothing. I only tried to add names all around, to make the map more vivid and more historic. If you think that Cres is not appropriate, I can remove the name, but I can't remove the island (nor can I remove Bornholm, sorry).

Monte Cassino: I suggest you drop the 'Monte'. Monte Cassino was the monastery at the top of the mountain famously held by the falshirmjaegers and destroyed by the RAF. But Cassino, where the bulk of the ordinary fighting took place was a town in the valley overlooked by the monastery. Since the hex is not depicted as the mountain but as the valley, it would be better to drop the 'Monte'.

Right, I did that. I prefer Cassino alone indeed.

Elba: Elba (presently shown SW of Leghorn) is Italian but much closer to the Italian coastline than shown. I suggest you either move the island one hex E or obliterate it as irrelevant.

Can't remove it, can't move it.

Also, about that problem of a foreign island in a mainland hex (Bornholm, Elbe, etc...), the WiF FE map has been around for 12 years now, with those islands at that place, so I think that we can let them around.

[marcuswatney]

Tunisia: Good to see Kasserine marked.  But what about Mareth (near Gabes) where there was a very tough battle?  Rommel built his fortified line here because it was a bottleneck, between the sea and the mountains (comparable to those in north Tunisia).  However, no hills appear on the map, so there seems little point defending at Gabes (=Mareth).  Would it be pushing things to ask for the bottleneck to be recreated by having some difficult-to-enter terrain SW of Gabes?
 
Also there was quite an extensive rail-net throughout the northern half of Tunisia, from coast to near the Algerian border.  However, I believe rolling-stock was the limiting factor, so it may be as well to leave these out.
 
Libya:  There was a rail-line from Homs to Tripoli to half-way to the border.
 
*Sigh*: how I wish we were allowed to draw the Qattara Depression correctly.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney
I assume Mytilene = Lesbos will have its border moved to show it as Greek, as it occupies a hex alone.

It's changed since a long time ago [;)]

[composer99]

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

Sadly, in life we don't get to choose our capitals. Many are smaller and more boring than neighbouring famous cities. Think Ottawa, Canberra, Brasilia.

Hey! As an Ottawan I re[pre]sent this comment! [:D][:D]

Besides, if it's good enough for Queen Victoria, it should be good enough for those whiny folks from Toronto & Montréal. [;)]

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

Tunisia: Good to see Kasserine marked.  But what about Mareth (near Gabes) where there was a very tough battle?  Rommel built his fortified line here because it was a bottleneck, between the sea and the mountains (comparable to those in north Tunisia).  However, no hills appear on the map, so there seems little point defending at Gabes (=Mareth).  Would it be pushing things to ask for the bottleneck to be recreated by having some difficult-to-enter terrain SW of Gabes?

There's already the Chott el Djerid as a bottleneck, plus problems of supply in desert hexes. Add in a couple of German armored units, and the battle for Mareth can quickly be a quagmire.
I added Mareth name to tha map, as Kasserine.

Also there was quite an extensive rail-net throughout the northern half of Tunisia, from coast to near the Algerian border.  However, I believe rolling-stock was the limiting factor, so it may be as well to leave these out.

What I thought too. Also what I'm thinking about the southward going Algerian railways that you commented upon in another post.

Libya:  There was a rail-line from Homs to Tripoli to half-way to the border.

I don't have this railway on my maps. Maybe it was not good enough to appear on the maps ?

*Sigh*: how I wish we were allowed to draw the Qattara Depression correctly.

[:D]

[marcuswatney]

My apologies to all living in the splendid city of Ottawa!
 
The Iraqi rail-lines and oilfields look splendid now.  One question of spelling: Teheran or Tehran?  My atlases of the time say the latter.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

Regarding Bornholm and, more importantly, the Greek island of Samos which is shown as Turkish ... I do think it very important that where for game-play reasons these things cannot be changed, then the island should be obliterated.  The Greeks even today are very sensitive about anything Turkish.

I assume Mytilene = Lesbos will have its border moved to show it as Greek, as it occupies a hex alone.

I didn't mean to suggest there was any problem with Leros.  I believe it was under Italian control as part of the Dodecanese.  Since it was the location of a famous British airborne attack, we have to be careful to get Leros right.

I somehow fail to see how obliterating islands is better than having them 'mislabeled' as to parent country.[;)]

From my perspective, it is not the island that is being labeled Swedish (or Turkish) but rather the hex, which is roughly 76 km by 60 km in Europe. That is a lot of area and whichever country controls most of it has its label attached.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

My apologies to all living in the splendid city of Ottawa!

The Iraqi rail-lines and oilfields look splendid now.  One question of spelling: Teheran or Tehran?  My atlases of the time say the latter.

Hey, small capital dwellers, would you like the Netherland name cluttered like that ?
Note how clever I was for the Luxemburg issue, as I prefer to keep the consistency of fonts & colors I used all around on the map to designate countries.
Note that I had to scale the picture 10% down to allow it here.

For Teheran, what you ask is on my list of hesitations. Originaly the WiF FE maps had it named Tehran, and I changed it to Teheran. I'm still hesistant, somehow waiting for incencitives.

I'm happy you like Iraq as I changed it. I'm happy you made the initial comment, as it's really more realistic now. Also, I like to put names or resources, especially oil resources, so here is one done.

[Froonp]

See that too, to prove you I'm not simply a naysayer (scaled down a lot).

[Shannon V. OKeets]

The Lowlands look good to me Patrice.

But I am not so sure about the change in Czechoslovakia and Hungary. A different color/font is needed to separate it from Sudetenland, Transylvania, et al.

The last two have rules especially for them in the game (Sudetenland is in Days of Decision, I believe). The new additions do not have rules related to them.

Perhaps they should be shown with the same font as the historical references are? Just something different - so the players aren't wondering what rules apply to Ruthenia.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Looks good to me Patrice.

I'll send you the data files in a few tens of minutes, as I have to go to bed soon and stop adding pretty names to the map for tonight.
(unless marcuswatney gives me more Akyab, Mareth and Tjilatjap names that I love to have on the map because of their WWII stories.)

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Looks good to me Patrice.

I'll send you the data files in a few tens of minutes, as I have to go to bed soon and stop adding pretty names to the map for tonight.
(unless marcuswatney gives me more Akyab, Mareth and Tjilatjap names that I love to have on the map because of their WWII stories.)

See my (edited) comment in post #210.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
But I am not so sure about the change in Czechoslovakia and Hungary. A different color/font is needed to separate it from Sudetenland, Transylvania, et al.

The last two have rules especially for them in the game (Sudetenland is in Days of Decision, I believe). The new additions do not have rules related to them.

Perhaps they should be shown with the same font as the historical references are? Just something different - so the players aren't wondering what rules apply to Ruthenia.

Well, this is simple. Area that have rule for them have borders, the others don't.

I think it is best to represent all the sub country territorial divisions, such as Rhineland and Morovia in the same way, because if there are more ways, you wonder why they are different. At start, Rhineland was written in low case, but this bave the impression that Bessarabia for example was lower grade compared to Silesia (who was upper case). Putting them all upper case makes them all the same importance. Distinguishing them all from a game point of view is seen because some of them have borders while the others don't.

One additional way to distinguish them, the best IMO, would be to have the name appear in the status bar of the game when the mouse hover one of its hexes. For example, when in Germany, the status bar shows "Germany (XX, YY)". Why in Rhineland, it could show "Rhineland, Germany (XX, YY)". When over Bessarabia, it would show "Bessarabia, Rumania (XX, YY)" if still part of Rumania, or "Bessarabia, Russia (XX, YY)" if part of Russia.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
But I am not so sure about the change in Czechoslovakia and Hungary. A different color/font is needed to separate it from Sudetenland, Transylvania, et al.

The last two have rules especially for them in the game (Sudetenland is in Days of Decision, I believe). The new additions do not have rules related to them.

Perhaps they should be shown with the same font as the historical references are? Just something different - so the players aren't wondering what rules apply to Ruthenia.

Well, this is simple. Area that have rule for them have borders, the others don't.

I think it is best to represent all the sub country territorial divisions, such as Rhineland and Morovia in the same way, because if there are more ways, you wonder why they are different. At start, Rhineland was written in low case, but this bave the impression that Bessarabia for example was lower grade compared to Silesia (who was upper case). Putting them all upper case makes them all the same importance. Distinguishing them all from a game point of view is seen because some of them have borders while the others don't.

One additional way to distinguish them, the best IMO, would be to have the name appear in the status bar of the game when the mouse hover one of its hexes. For example, when in Germany, the status bar shows "Germany (XX, YY)". Why in Rhineland, it could show "Rhineland, Germany (XX, YY)". When over Bessarabia, it would show "Bessarabia, Rumania (XX, YY)" if still part of Rumania, or "Bessarabia, Russia (XX, YY)" if part of Russia.

Ok. but I won't include 'Germany' as part of the description for the Rhineland (for example). Then the name becomes too long. Remember that a city name might also be part of the status bar text.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Ok. but I won't include 'Germany' as part of the description for the Rhineland (for example). Then the name becomes too long. Remember that a city name might also be part of the status bar text.

Yes, but the text automatically shrinks to fit, so I think this won't be a problem.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Ok. but I won't include 'Germany' as part of the description for the Rhineland (for example). Then the name becomes too long. Remember that a city name might also be part of the status bar text.

Yes, but the text automatically shrinks to fit, so I think this won't be a problem.

The text desn't 'automatically' shrink to fit; there is Pascal code that makes that happen[:)].

But when the font gets too small, I am unhappy because it becomes hard to read. Whenever possible, I try to prevent that from happening.

[Smiffus64]

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

ORIGINAL: Smiffus64

Re. The Hague and Amsterdam. Amsterdam is the capital of the Netherlands, however the seat of government is in the Hague.

The seat of government defines the capital, since the word comes from Latin 'capus' the head. I know this is an on-going problem in the Netherlands, with different tourist sites even today claiming the honour for their preferred city. The best compromise I have found is on one tourist web site which, with impressive diplomacy, calls The Hague the Political Capital and Amsterdam the Cultural Capital.

Sadly, in life we don't get to choose our capitals. Many are smaller and more boring than neighbouring famous cities. Think Ottawa, Canberra, Brasilia.

Perhaps the starkest example of this is Vichy France. Vichy is a tiny spa town, dwarfed by Marseilles and Lyons. yet the unoccupied zone is known to history as Vichy France, because that was the seat of Petain's government. Ergo, the capital of The Netherlands is The Hague.

I tried to PM you about this, but somehow I can't. Anyway, we're taught at school about the division between the 2 cities, I guess we're special that way as a country (having a seperate seat of governement and capital)

perhaps this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_of_the_Netherlands can shed some more light.

Of course this discussion hasn't that much to do with WiF any more so I'll stop

[composer99]

I rather like the little "The Hague" and the little regional descriptions, although like Steve I think they should have a different font from areas that have game effects attached to them.

[marcuswatney]

I am intrigued that the Mannerheim Line is not shown as an on-map fortification, as it held the Soviets up for quite a few months.  Or is the single hexside considered troublesome enough?

[Norman42]

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

I am intrigued that the Mannerheim Line is not shown as an on-map fortification, as it held the Soviets up for quite a few months.  Or is the single hexside considered troublesome enough?

In WiF, map-printed fortifications usually represent massive construction elements on a strategic level. Reinforced earthworks, concrete pillboxes and bunkers, deep minefields, and/or massive large calibre gun emplacements in armored blockhouses. The Mannerhiem Line while it was effective in blunting and repelling the Soviet Winter Offensive, was more a series of strongpoints anchored by poor terrain held by very determined troops vs a rather poorly planned operation. A few anti-tank ditches, trenches, and hidden machine nests in log bunkers doesn't really compare to the massive fortress works of the Maginot and Sevastopol, or the giant naval artillery turrets of Singapore.

An argument *could* be made that a single hexside fortification facing Germany should be printed at Eben Emal in Belgium, as this kind of constructed defence was in fact a reality and was the major worry of the OKW in the planning of the Belgium operations. Since this area already has a river line defence I assumed that Harry and Co. felt a fortress hexside was too much.

.