Does anyone have advice on how to increase enemy fighter losses? Sweeps never draw the enemy fighters up so the attacking squadron lose heavily to flak while the escorts don't do anything.
Bombers early cant go many places with escorts and the escorts even if i have some high and close seem to be ineffective.
I know this is all historical but 4-1 losses are a bit off. So I was wondering if anyone had any advice.[:D]
Advice
Moderators: Joel Billings, warshipbuilder, simovitch, harley
-
wernerpruckner
- Posts: 4142
- Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 1:00 pm
RE: Advice
scenario & OB/OA ???
try to attack close targets with multiple layers of raids crossing each others paths ( Brussles is a nice starter target ).
Use escorts with their optimal altitude ranges ( some planes are better in different alts than others.....much harder with the new version )
Use different layers ( alt and time ) of escorts.
watch and learn after such a raid.....you will see how long A/C can stay in the air in combat or in patrol mode...use this later for sweeps or raiding A/Fs
try to attack close targets with multiple layers of raids crossing each others paths ( Brussles is a nice starter target ).
Use escorts with their optimal altitude ranges ( some planes are better in different alts than others.....much harder with the new version )
Use different layers ( alt and time ) of escorts.
watch and learn after such a raid.....you will see how long A/C can stay in the air in combat or in patrol mode...use this later for sweeps or raiding A/Fs
RE: Advice
Whats patrol mode?
I was wondering if there is a way you can make aircraft loiter over an area in order to catch enamy AC as they return to base.
I was wondering if there is a way you can make aircraft loiter over an area in order to catch enamy AC as they return to base.
RE: Advice
oh and its the long 43 campaign.
also is there anyway to get british fighters to escort 8th AF bombers? I have 1 british squadron with Mustang I's but for whatever reason I can never find them to do anything but sweeps.
Is there anyway to transfer fighter squadrons from one command to another?
I hope if not the new game allows this to a certain extent, units were shuffled back and forth from time to time. Hell thats how the 15th AF was made by taking bombers from the 12th and 8th AFs.
also is there anyway to get british fighters to escort 8th AF bombers? I have 1 british squadron with Mustang I's but for whatever reason I can never find them to do anything but sweeps.
Is there anyway to transfer fighter squadrons from one command to another?
I hope if not the new game allows this to a certain extent, units were shuffled back and forth from time to time. Hell thats how the 15th AF was made by taking bombers from the 12th and 8th AFs.
RE: Advice
Prolly really bad idea but i just took 4 days and didnt launch a single sortie over those 4 days, did allow me to upgrade my 8th AF fighter groups to 2 having P-38Js and 1 P-47Ds and having all three groups at full streanth and ready to escort bombers.[:D]
P.S. Is it just me or is the total number of bombers for the 8th AF as of October 43 a bit low? There are 568 B-17Fs and Gs I was under the impression the 8th AF had more than that many operatonal bomber groupd by October of 43 am I wrong?
P.S. Is it just me or is the total number of bombers for the 8th AF as of October 43 a bit low? There are 568 B-17Fs and Gs I was under the impression the 8th AF had more than that many operatonal bomber groupd by October of 43 am I wrong?
-
wernerpruckner
- Posts: 4142
- Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 1:00 pm
RE: Advice
ORIGINAL: flanyboy
Whats patrol mode?
I was wondering if there is a way you can make aircraft loiter over an area in order to catch enamy AC as they return to base.
I meant the German interceptors.
When you fly with the boxes one German patroling forces are green. Retreating or called back forces are blue.
Units that did not do any combat yet have much longer legs and stay in the air for a certain time. Units in combat burn their fuel very fast.
Units that fly back to their bases can be dead meat -- but only if your timing is good.
-
wernerpruckner
- Posts: 4142
- Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 1:00 pm
RE: Advice
ORIGINAL: flanyboy
also is there anyway to get british fighters to escort 8th AF bombers? I have 1 british squadron with Mustang I's but for whatever reason I can never find them to do anything but sweeps.
Is there anyway to transfer fighter squadrons from one command to another?
I hope if not the new game allows this to a certain extent, units were shuffled back and forth from time to time. Hell thats how the 15th AF was made by taking bombers from the 12th and 8th AFs.
why would you do that - the Mustang I was not a really good fighter - it was a tactical recce fighter - not comparable with the later Mustang.
It has a very good range ( but the other numbers are not so good ) - use it for sweeping; and never put them as escorts for fast bombers like the Boston. ( Boston has a better cruising speed....[:D] )
Spit VB has short legs, also Spit IX has better things to do
Yes, there are ways to escort 8th AF raids with those fighters ( build up an raid and reasign a new leading unit from another command ).
You can shuttle units to other commands, but this is a NONO in the game because it never worked right ( you may end up with many dedatchments and dededatchments and dededededede.......and not be able to reform them.....eats up A/C and pilots really fast )
15th AF build up is simulated in the game ( as are other events )- all heavy bombers of the 12th move to the 15th as do all ( a bit shacky here, because there was a bug in stock ) FS. The tactical forces ( Mitchell, Marauder, Boston and FGs stay with the 12th)
Happens around 1st November in the game.
-
wernerpruckner
- Posts: 4142
- Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 1:00 pm
RE: Advice
ORIGINAL: flanyboy
Prolly really bad idea but i just took 4 days and didnt launch a single sortie over those 4 days, did allow me to upgrade my 8th AF fighter groups to 2 having P-38Js and 1 P-47Ds and having all three groups at full streanth and ready to escort bombers.[:D]
P.S. Is it just me or is the total number of bombers for the 8th AF as of October 43 a bit low? There are 568 B-17Fs and Gs I was under the impression the 8th AF had more than that many operatonal bomber groupd by October of 43 am I wrong?
not a single recce mission ??? can not be too good for bombing results [:'(]
I´d reserve the P-39J for the 12th and 15th, because in the south all interesting targets are a bit farther away. And the P47D has no bigger problem to reach all of the Ruhr ( with their additional tanks even longer ). But that is just me.
The number looks too good in comparision with real life, but this is as the game works. You can only stand tdown units, you cannot move them to trainingduty ( as happened very often ) [ a good film how this was done is Twelve O'Clock High - but most of it plays in the time before the timeframe of the game)
-
Hard Sarge
- Posts: 22145
- Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: garfield hts ohio usa
- Contact:
RE: Advice
for real life, remember also that BG had 4 Squadrons in them, and 3 were to fly each mission, the 4th stood down, the idea being that there would always be a rested and fresh Squadron for tomorrow (and hopefully, if a bad raid, you didn't have to fly all of them)
which the game does sort of reflex this, a BG has 48 planes but only 32 of them fly, if done right, you should always have at least 16 planes ready for the next day, but, the game's morale rules effect the whole group, so a bad raid, drops the morale for the whole group (maybe something to work on, on the down the road stuff)
with weather and losses, there is nothing wrong with taking a few days of combat off, if your heavies are tired, or shot up, and the weather is good, you can still send out the lights and meds, Tiffies should fly as often as they can get into the air (plus, that can be used to fly under the weather, bad weather at 7 K, the tiffies can fly at 6000 and still hit the coastal targets, while the high fliers rest)
the Mustang I and IA, are tac recon, ground support, raiders, use them low, keep the LW honest, don't use them as escourts, the III is what we know as the 51B/C, the IV is the 51D/K
right now, Sweeps don't count as recon, I do want to get this changed, they down low and they on the enemy Airfield, they should be able to report on what they seen !!!!
which the game does sort of reflex this, a BG has 48 planes but only 32 of them fly, if done right, you should always have at least 16 planes ready for the next day, but, the game's morale rules effect the whole group, so a bad raid, drops the morale for the whole group (maybe something to work on, on the down the road stuff)
with weather and losses, there is nothing wrong with taking a few days of combat off, if your heavies are tired, or shot up, and the weather is good, you can still send out the lights and meds, Tiffies should fly as often as they can get into the air (plus, that can be used to fly under the weather, bad weather at 7 K, the tiffies can fly at 6000 and still hit the coastal targets, while the high fliers rest)
the Mustang I and IA, are tac recon, ground support, raiders, use them low, keep the LW honest, don't use them as escourts, the III is what we know as the 51B/C, the IV is the 51D/K
right now, Sweeps don't count as recon, I do want to get this changed, they down low and they on the enemy Airfield, they should be able to report on what they seen !!!!
RE: Advice
Flanyboy
I found some information on the 8th Air Force WWII web page. I found that there were many "Seduction" missions run to draw LW AC out of the path of missions that would be flown later in the day.
Many of these missions were flown up to and just across the western Europe coast and then turn North toward either target up in Belgium, or the Netherlands or they would just run up the coast to draw LW assets out. The actual strat mission or missions, would then follow through the opening in the LW coverage. I believe it was a standard tactic if I understand the reports I was reading from the various Bomber Squadrons Mission Report Logs.
I think this may be a good use of the Spitfire units. I believe they are better than the P47 and engaging the LW 109's and 190's. However I dont know if this difference is modeled in the game AC stats. I think it might be worth giving it a try. I know I will. [8D]
Later,
KayBay
I found some information on the 8th Air Force WWII web page. I found that there were many "Seduction" missions run to draw LW AC out of the path of missions that would be flown later in the day.
Many of these missions were flown up to and just across the western Europe coast and then turn North toward either target up in Belgium, or the Netherlands or they would just run up the coast to draw LW assets out. The actual strat mission or missions, would then follow through the opening in the LW coverage. I believe it was a standard tactic if I understand the reports I was reading from the various Bomber Squadrons Mission Report Logs.
I think this may be a good use of the Spitfire units. I believe they are better than the P47 and engaging the LW 109's and 190's. However I dont know if this difference is modeled in the game AC stats. I think it might be worth giving it a try. I know I will. [8D]
Later,
KayBay
It's all Mind Over Matter....
If you dont mind... It dont matter
If you dont mind... It dont matter
-
Hard Sarge
- Posts: 22145
- Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: garfield hts ohio usa
- Contact:
RE: Advice
Decoys, are a main part of the game, at least against the AI, a human on the other side, learns fast, so decoy will have to alway be changed vs a human
one hassle with Bomb Raid Decoys in the game, is they got to have a target
but, remember if you can, you want the bad guys dancing to your tune, not you dancing to there, keep them on there toes, keep them guessing, keep them busy
the Spit V, well, hopefully not get yelled at by Gavin, but pretty much is a pig, now it is a pretty pig, and better then some of the other pigs in the game, but still, it is a pig, in a fair fight, it is going to get it's head handed to it more often then not, and in a unfair fight, it still got a chance to get the low end of the stick, the IX is the work horse, so try to use the V for stuff that you don't want to waste your IXs on (you got a Squadron with 75 exp and they flying V's and you got a squadron of IXs with 60 exp, change planes)
39s, 40s, are also pigs, even worse, low level pigs, but they are great staffers, and while I hate to lose anything or anybody, you can afford to run into a flak trap every now and then, with a FG of 39s
in your verison of the game, the Tiffy and Cane are dogmeat if they run into enemy fighters, in our verison, they can still get hammered, but they will fight back, and if used right, they will hammer the bad guys
but, down on the deck, split up from flak, and damaged running for home and getting bounced, anybody is going to get hurt, but, even planes running for home, can snap back, you can even have boths sides flying side by side, both headed for home, and they will snap at each other (before they would just go there merry way, while you sat back and screamed at them)
Timeing, the biggest thing in the game, is timeing, a sweep of 12 planes that is in the right place at the right time, is a joy to behold, a massive raid of FGs getting to the same place at the wrong time, is just a waste, and if your lucky, not a flak trap
we been able to do a few things to the sweeps, they not as bad at getting pulled off path, and pretty much most of the sweep loop is gone, and a sweep will turn into a patrol once it reaches its target, but we still working on this, I want a much higher fuel burn for sweepers
one hassle with Bomb Raid Decoys in the game, is they got to have a target
but, remember if you can, you want the bad guys dancing to your tune, not you dancing to there, keep them on there toes, keep them guessing, keep them busy
the Spit V, well, hopefully not get yelled at by Gavin, but pretty much is a pig, now it is a pretty pig, and better then some of the other pigs in the game, but still, it is a pig, in a fair fight, it is going to get it's head handed to it more often then not, and in a unfair fight, it still got a chance to get the low end of the stick, the IX is the work horse, so try to use the V for stuff that you don't want to waste your IXs on (you got a Squadron with 75 exp and they flying V's and you got a squadron of IXs with 60 exp, change planes)
39s, 40s, are also pigs, even worse, low level pigs, but they are great staffers, and while I hate to lose anything or anybody, you can afford to run into a flak trap every now and then, with a FG of 39s
in your verison of the game, the Tiffy and Cane are dogmeat if they run into enemy fighters, in our verison, they can still get hammered, but they will fight back, and if used right, they will hammer the bad guys
but, down on the deck, split up from flak, and damaged running for home and getting bounced, anybody is going to get hurt, but, even planes running for home, can snap back, you can even have boths sides flying side by side, both headed for home, and they will snap at each other (before they would just go there merry way, while you sat back and screamed at them)
Timeing, the biggest thing in the game, is timeing, a sweep of 12 planes that is in the right place at the right time, is a joy to behold, a massive raid of FGs getting to the same place at the wrong time, is just a waste, and if your lucky, not a flak trap
we been able to do a few things to the sweeps, they not as bad at getting pulled off path, and pretty much most of the sweep loop is gone, and a sweep will turn into a patrol once it reaches its target, but we still working on this, I want a much higher fuel burn for sweepers
RE: Advice
I am using the one day introductory campaign as a learning tool for setting up and running basic missions atm. I dont have a manual so I dont want to get into all the force maintenance and planning stuff yet.
I put together a mission with multiple bomber forces hitting several targets in a localize area. I ran a sweep at one LW base nearest the paths and target. I ran the FG's path along a couple others to draw the LW out and away from the bombers. It worked pretty well. The bombers hit all their targets and were not intercepted.
It was close though, timing is everything as you stated. The LW reacted just a bit late but may have intercepted had I run the sweep a few minutes earlier.
This is a great game. I cant believe I had a copy of it in my hands when it came out and put it back on the shelf because I had read some pinheads review of it. Looking back I think they were looking for a First Person Shooter game or some kind of Arcade game. Dont understand how you could build an arcade strategy game of this scope.
Later,
KayBay
I put together a mission with multiple bomber forces hitting several targets in a localize area. I ran a sweep at one LW base nearest the paths and target. I ran the FG's path along a couple others to draw the LW out and away from the bombers. It worked pretty well. The bombers hit all their targets and were not intercepted.
It was close though, timing is everything as you stated. The LW reacted just a bit late but may have intercepted had I run the sweep a few minutes earlier.
This is a great game. I cant believe I had a copy of it in my hands when it came out and put it back on the shelf because I had read some pinheads review of it. Looking back I think they were looking for a First Person Shooter game or some kind of Arcade game. Dont understand how you could build an arcade strategy game of this scope.
Later,
KayBay
It's all Mind Over Matter....
If you dont mind... It dont matter
If you dont mind... It dont matter
RE: Advice
Swift, HS or any of u old BTS veterans,
Now that we are on the subject. As told i started up the game again recently.
Im playing a 1.06x5, 1943 campaign, no OOB patch, allied side.
Im not as concerned about the kill ratio thats seems to go fairly well and the Italy invasion was a week to 2 weeks ahead too.
Im now on 13 dec 1943 and was wondering if im actually killing enough Jerries, playing the AI. Airfield sweeps have becomed unpactical ratio kill wise as the AI have every airfield loaded with LAA. Good move
Any of u got any rough number of german planes or pilots i need to eliminate to be on track?
Per month or day or how ever u count.
Points are at 20'ish but it seems im stuck as the industry repairs as fast as I can bomb new. Terrorpoints is slowly rising and thats fine.
Points should be a problem as i know only the ground war will be the ultimate point scorer.
TIA,
Rasmus
Now that we are on the subject. As told i started up the game again recently.
Im playing a 1.06x5, 1943 campaign, no OOB patch, allied side.
Im not as concerned about the kill ratio thats seems to go fairly well and the Italy invasion was a week to 2 weeks ahead too.
Im now on 13 dec 1943 and was wondering if im actually killing enough Jerries, playing the AI. Airfield sweeps have becomed unpactical ratio kill wise as the AI have every airfield loaded with LAA. Good move
Any of u got any rough number of german planes or pilots i need to eliminate to be on track?
Per month or day or how ever u count.
Points are at 20'ish but it seems im stuck as the industry repairs as fast as I can bomb new. Terrorpoints is slowly rising and thats fine.
Points should be a problem as i know only the ground war will be the ultimate point scorer.
TIA,
Rasmus
RE: Advice
ORIGINAL: Walloc
Swift, HS or any of u old BTS veterans,
Now that we are on the subject. As told i started up the game again recently.
Im playing a 1.06x5, 1943 campaign, no OOB patch, allied side.
Im not as concerned about the kill ratio thats seems to go fairly well and the Italy invasion was a week to 2 weeks ahead too.
Im now on 13 dec 1943 and was wondering if im actually killing enough Jerries, playing the AI. Airfield sweeps have becomed unpactical ratio kill wise as the AI have every airfield loaded with LAA. Good move
Any of u got any rough number of german planes or pilots i need to eliminate to be on track?
Per month or day or how ever u count.
Points are at 20'ish but it seems im stuck as the industry repairs as fast as I can bomb new. Terrorpoints is slowly rising and thats fine.
Points should be a problem as i know only the ground war will be the ultimate point scorer.
TIA,
Rasmus
What is your Air Superiority rating ?
soeren01, formerly known as Soeren
CoG FoF
PacWar WIR BoB BTR UV WITP WITE WITW
CoG FoF
PacWar WIR BoB BTR UV WITP WITE WITW
RE: Advice
Still 2. After bad days of the jerries, the number in summery suggests i should get 3, but the number stays so i assume its a question of FoW.
Considering the AI makes what 80 planes a day, im not supprised.
I've tried reducing that, but i cant see how u can ever get up there. In terms of killing per day. On good days the score is up there and higher, but then 2 days of bad weather and well the average is pretty low then.
Kind regards,
Rasmus
Considering the AI makes what 80 planes a day, im not supprised.
I've tried reducing that, but i cant see how u can ever get up there. In terms of killing per day. On good days the score is up there and higher, but then 2 days of bad weather and well the average is pretty low then.
Kind regards,
Rasmus
RE: Advice
I compared my self to Fochinell and Swifts AAR.
Ofc this isnt vs AI, but still i seem to be on the same track as him in killed jerries.
He has 7500 on 1 april 1944 and i have 3400 at 15 dec 1943. So per day its not that different. My ratio is a bit better than his, but again im playing the AI.
Having finally seemingly to gotten my escort done right plus ofc having more figthers now than before. In dec unlike before my B-17/B-24 are losing fewer than 10 bombers per raid out of 300-500 so that % is very nice. In the range of 1-4%'ish.
Yesterday raids produced X 81 A 41 and only 5 lost bombers in day raids in nothern Italy and the Ruhr area.
Kind regards,
Rasmus
Ofc this isnt vs AI, but still i seem to be on the same track as him in killed jerries.
He has 7500 on 1 april 1944 and i have 3400 at 15 dec 1943. So per day its not that different. My ratio is a bit better than his, but again im playing the AI.
Having finally seemingly to gotten my escort done right plus ofc having more figthers now than before. In dec unlike before my B-17/B-24 are losing fewer than 10 bombers per raid out of 300-500 so that % is very nice. In the range of 1-4%'ish.
Yesterday raids produced X 81 A 41 and only 5 lost bombers in day raids in nothern Italy and the Ruhr area.
Kind regards,
Rasmus
-
Hard Sarge
- Posts: 22145
- Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: garfield hts ohio usa
- Contact:
RE: Advice
AS will be picking up some shortly once you start getting more units in, the AS is easier to kick up and keep up, plus your getting some of the better planes now, it will not be all uphill anymore
20 is a decent score for now, you just want it to be building, once OVERLORD targeting comes in, you can lose a lot of points before you are able to get back to the Air War
(most games the Allies lose, it is during OVERLORD)
you need to get Big Week in, as soon as you can/are ready, just the key word is when ready, but don't put it off too long
also, work on the Crit industries, knock them down, and then keep them down, Alum, Rubber, Chem are the easier ones to hurt, Ports are good, and slow to rebuild, plus, they are a good target for BC, but Power and Fuel are the importent ones, but much HARDer to take enough of them out early in the war
if you can break the power grid, you shut everything down, but, alot of those are 2 and 3 point sites, and they are all over the place (Steel, for me, I have never been able to knock steel out)
20 is a decent score for now, you just want it to be building, once OVERLORD targeting comes in, you can lose a lot of points before you are able to get back to the Air War
(most games the Allies lose, it is during OVERLORD)
you need to get Big Week in, as soon as you can/are ready, just the key word is when ready, but don't put it off too long
also, work on the Crit industries, knock them down, and then keep them down, Alum, Rubber, Chem are the easier ones to hurt, Ports are good, and slow to rebuild, plus, they are a good target for BC, but Power and Fuel are the importent ones, but much HARDer to take enough of them out early in the war
if you can break the power grid, you shut everything down, but, alot of those are 2 and 3 point sites, and they are all over the place (Steel, for me, I have never been able to knock steel out)
RE: Advice
A AS of 2 is ok. You will see that over time your kill ratio will get better, as the LW experience decreases
soeren01, formerly known as Soeren
CoG FoF
PacWar WIR BoB BTR UV WITP WITE WITW
CoG FoF
PacWar WIR BoB BTR UV WITP WITE WITW
RE: Advice
Kill ratio over all is 4200 allied to 3400 axis's so i think im doing pretty well there. If any thing, its pilots im lacking not planes.
In dec the kill ration actually been to my advantage. So wasnt so much the kill ration i was worried amout more if i was killing axis's enough for AS eventually to rise as they atm plane wíse would be replacing those losses easily.
Aka sacrife more allied planes/pliots to get a few more killz. Most likely at a worse kill ration than until now tho.
Kind regards,
Rasmus
In dec the kill ration actually been to my advantage. So wasnt so much the kill ration i was worried amout more if i was killing axis's enough for AS eventually to rise as they atm plane wíse would be replacing those losses easily.
Aka sacrife more allied planes/pliots to get a few more killz. Most likely at a worse kill ration than until now tho.
Kind regards,
Rasmus
-
Hard Sarge
- Posts: 22145
- Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: garfield hts ohio usa
- Contact:
RE: Advice
remember, K/R are going to be different then in RL, games are just more bloody then RL was
I had a old first turn save, that I had made as a training set up for the old website, depending on luck, I could get between 325-425 LW losses on the first day
I had also made number of raid type saves, to show of different plotting styles (things like Crisscross, Outrigger, Starburst and what not)
(LOL, one of them, I was shocked, it was about how to defend a raid, first time I tried, it was 1 bomber for 93 LW fighters, later runs, would change, but most times the R/D was in the 9-10 to 1 range)
hmmm, wonder if I still got them, I am a pack rat type
I had a old first turn save, that I had made as a training set up for the old website, depending on luck, I could get between 325-425 LW losses on the first day
I had also made number of raid type saves, to show of different plotting styles (things like Crisscross, Outrigger, Starburst and what not)
(LOL, one of them, I was shocked, it was about how to defend a raid, first time I tried, it was 1 bomber for 93 LW fighters, later runs, would change, but most times the R/D was in the 9-10 to 1 range)
hmmm, wonder if I still got them, I am a pack rat type