CleverDevils2 AAR

[Titi]

ORIGINAL: gwheelock

Napoleon & 2 corp attack 1 Prussian corp in Cologne (city seige combat):

Breakin was successful.

Casulties : 2 Prussian Cav (he only had 2 cav in the corp)

That's the right moment to surrender when the breach happens to fight another war.
No need to hope that Napoleon is with 1SP corps.

[Jimmer]

ORIGINAL: bresh

ORIGINAL: Jimmer

IMO, next game we are not going to even ALLOW DOWs pre-game, except for France and GB. IF there were a chance to negotiate between bids and game start, it would be OK to have pre-game wars. However, with no opportunity to hear what your potential allies and opponents have to say, it's not worth having.

Heh, comfort on that.
I have no problem that I did a pre-DOW as Russia on France in the game im currently involved in.

Regards
Bresh

No, but GB certainly does. When you go to war with Sweden (or, Denmark), you have greatly increased the odds that France will get them. And use them (against GB). GB is not strong enough early in the game to handle extra fleets jumping in on France's side.

So, while such a move saved Russia 4 PP, it greatly increases the odds that the alliance will eventually lose.

[Odysseus]

Actually, some players of Spain and Turkey might want to pre-declare war. I see several ways for that, Spain vs GB, France or Turkey, or Turkey vs Austria, Russia or Spain, for instance. Similarly, Russia might pre-declare against Turkey. I just couldn't for the life of me imagine how Prussia would wanna pre-declare on France. That is probably the single most remarkable pre-declaration I've ever seen. Brave, indeed. And if the Prussian player had concentrated all his forces in one single place, instead of running all over the board for all those minors, there might have been a slim chance of that pre-declared war paying off. If he could have won a first major battle against France, thereby signalling for Austria that it was time to join in. Granted, that's a lota if's, and I sure never woulda taken that chance, but this is a game of dice, and stranger things have happened. But again, all those chances went right out the window when he started going after minors instead of focusing on the major enemy.

But hey, lessons learned and all that. I'm sure Prussia will be a quite different opponent in 1807 or so...[:)]

[bresh]

ORIGINAL: Jimmer

ORIGINAL: bresh

ORIGINAL: Jimmer

IMO, next game we are not going to even ALLOW DOWs pre-game, except for France and GB. IF there were a chance to negotiate between bids and game start, it would be OK to have pre-game wars. However, with no opportunity to hear what your potential allies and opponents have to say, it's not worth having.

Heh, comfort on that.
I have no problem that I did a pre-DOW as Russia on France in the game im currently involved in.

Regards
Bresh

No, but GB certainly does. When you go to war with Sweden (or, Denmark), you have greatly increased the odds that France will get them. And use them (against GB). GB is not strong enough early in the game to handle extra fleets jumping in on France's side.

So, while such a move saved Russia 4 PP, it greatly increases the odds that the alliance will eventually lose.

Your kidding right ?
Both GB and Russia could cripple the fleets, before they even gets to move ?
You do know GB gets to chose its naval-move order during reinforce-phase ?
And Russia always moves naval before all the others.

If both GB and RUS fleetss hit the Danish/swedish fleets, France gonna bleed heavy on PPs.

If thats enough, im sure he could talk to GB.
GB is likely happy that Russia offers his help vs the French threath, no ?

So if France got control, he could easy loose 4-8 PP, if he didnt go hide.

Regards
Bresh

[Jagdtiger14]

I have to agree with Jimmer. I dont have the computer game...so not sure what the ship count is...but in the board game its not normally a good idea for GB and/or Russia to DOW Sweden and Denmark(or Spain DOW on Portugal). If I'm France(49 ships + 15 Dutch=64) and have Spain(57 ships) as a solid partner, thats 121 ships. If Russia uses its fleet to blockade the Danes/Swedes(at least 24 ships minimum to keep the Danes in, and at least 17 ships to keep the Swedes in port = 41 ships). To be on the safe side probably need all Russian ships. That could make for some interesting naval battles...anything could happen including GB getting some PP's...although I as GB would not think the risk worth it. Allot depends on diplomacy and what the alliances are, and what the over-all strategy is.
C

[Jagdtiger14]

Prussia might have been able to gobble up a bunch of minors if not at war with France. As for Austria...allot depends on the personalities, but I as Austria would have admonished my Prussian "ally", DOW'ed on France on the first turn and had the Austrian army set up in the mtn's on the Prussian border...and get the Prussians with Charles up there ASAP. So, the Austrians might have a share of the blame here, but I have no idea what the player personalities are. F2F is obviously a superior game where you can guage or already know someone's personality and can look your fellow players in the eyes.
C

[Jimmer]

ORIGINAL: bresh
Your kidding right ?
Both GB and Russia could cripple the fleets, before they even gets to move ?
You do know GB gets to chose its naval-move order during reinforce-phase ?
And Russia always moves naval before all the others.

If both GB and RUS fleetss hit the Danish/swedish fleets, France gonna bleed heavy on PPs.

If thats enough, im sure he could talk to GB.
GB is likely happy that Russia offers his help vs the French threath, no ?

So if France got control, he could easy loose 4-8 PP, if he didnt go hide.

Regards
Bresh

No, I'm not kidding.

The game starts in January, 1805. Winter. Russia's fleets are totally useless until March.

But, war with Sweden doesn't have to occur immediately. Once it does, however, Russia must move all her naval factors into a blockade of Sweden's port where the fleets are.

GB should NEVER be going first unless there is a good reason to do so. So, she won't be the one doing the blockading. She is now dependent upon Russia not only blockading, but also winning the interception.

This might be considered a "good reason", however, for GB to go first. But, there's always a risk there (which is why I said she never should): That France will attempt to break out of all ports, potentially succeeding in one of them. Statistically, the best GB can do blockading 7 French ports (the ideal setup for France, including Sweden and Holland) is 7 x ~83% win battles. The odds suggest that France will actually WIN one of those. With GB having gone first, the game is close to over for her.

This actually happened to me as GB, which is why I am so acutely aware of the risk. GB was in PSD position 40 after 5 wins and one loss (the seventh did not make the attempt), but with a French corps sitting on the west coast of GB. At this point, Spain saw her big chance at glory, and joined in the war the next month. Realizing what a disaster Russia had potentially unleashed upon GB, Russia grabbed all available factors (that WERE destined to conquer Sweden, and dropped them into London. Russia lost the first land combat, but dropped the French corps down a few troops (this was in the boardgame, so there were always 10 factors). The Russian presence plus a few Brits for morale eventually turned the tide, and the French were beated off of the island. But, it was NOT a given, by any stretch. Far too risky, IMO.

The Spanish decided that this was a good time to go to war with GB. However, her fleet was intercepted on the way by an under-powered GB fleet (which won anyhow), and the corps with was sent packing back to Spain. With the Russian help (desperately needed), GB wound up winning the war against Spain. But, it cost the Russians dearly: Half of her ships were gone (along with half of Spain's and 2/3 of Frances, by the end). GB went on to coast to victory in that game (although, five players actually won that game).

But, the risk at the beginning was very high.

[gwheelock]

Curent results (end of April 1805):

Prussia attacks Wurttemberg with Hohenlohe & 1 corp (containing ONLY 3 cav)
Chits are Echelon vs Counter Attack. Prussia wins
Losses 2 Prussian cav; 0 French

Spain assults Turkish controlled garrison in Tangiers;
Losses are 3 Sp I; 3 Tangiers I; Spain breaks; fails capture.

Britain conquors Sardinia from France (minor country combat)
France conquors Genoa from Britain (minor country combat)
France conquors Ansbach from Prussia
Russia conquors Holstein from France (minor country combat)
Russia conquors Hamberg from Spain (minor country combat)
Lapse of war between Russia & Sweden; Sweden controled by Britain
France creates Piedmont as free state
France creates Saxony as free state

current war status :



Prussian OOB now consists of 1 Cav; 8 Militia & 21 to 26 Infantry - 30 to 35 total

[bresh]

ORIGINAL: Jimmer

ORIGINAL: bresh
Your kidding right ?
Both GB and Russia could cripple the fleets, before they even gets to move ?
You do know GB gets to chose its naval-move order during reinforce-phase ?
And Russia always moves naval before all the others.

If both GB and RUS fleetss hit the Danish/swedish fleets, France gonna bleed heavy on PPs.

If thats enough, im sure he could talk to GB.
GB is likely happy that Russia offers his help vs the French threath, no ?

So if France got control, he could easy loose 4-8 PP, if he didnt go hide.

Regards
Bresh

No, I'm not kidding.

The game starts in January, 1805. Winter. Russia's fleets are totally useless until March.

But, war with Sweden doesn't have to occur immediately. Once it does, however, Russia must move all her naval factors into a blockade of Sweden's port where the fleets are.

GB should NEVER be going first unless there is a good reason to do so. So, she won't be the one doing the blockading. She is now dependent upon Russia not only blockading, but also winning the interception.

This might be considered a "good reason", however, for GB to go first. But, there's always a risk there (which is why I said she never should): That France will attempt to break out of all ports, potentially succeeding in one of them. Statistically, the best GB can do blockading 7 French ports (the ideal setup for France, including Sweden and Holland) is 7 x ~83% win battles. The odds suggest that France will actually WIN one of those. With GB having gone first, the game is close to over for her.

This actually happened to me as GB, which is why I am so acutely aware of the risk. GB was in PSD position 40 after 5 wins and one loss (the seventh did not make the attempt), but with a French corps sitting on the west coast of GB. At this point, Spain saw her big chance at glory, and joined in the war the next month. Realizing what a disaster Russia had potentially unleashed upon GB, Russia grabbed all available factors (that WERE destined to conquer Sweden, and dropped them into London. Russia lost the first land combat, but dropped the French corps down a few troops (this was in the boardgame, so there were always 10 factors). The Russian presence plus a few Brits for morale eventually turned the tide, and the French were beated off of the island. But, it was NOT a given, by any stretch. Far too risky, IMO.

The Spanish decided that this was a good time to go to war with GB. However, her fleet was intercepted on the way by an under-powered GB fleet (which won anyhow), and the corps with was sent packing back to Spain. With the Russian help (desperately needed), GB wound up winning the war against Spain. But, it cost the Russians dearly: Half of her ships were gone (along with half of Spain's and 2/3 of Frances, by the end). GB went on to coast to victory in that game (although, five players actually won that game).

But, the risk at the beginning was very high.

Thats alot of French forces to keep in ports all game, waiting for just that move.
Also unless Russia and Gb allies, this variant only gives France +2 to control sweden/Denmark. Meaning it doesnt always happen... And France appearnly would count on it.

Only a small part of French navy can actually carry anything mentionworthy.
France with 39H+15H-Hollandish ships +20 transports.
At best thats 6 invasion fleets ? If you can settle for ~10i corps.
And if your want around 15 faktor corps, its 4 invasion fleets.

If GB and Russia allied and if France setup that way, GB could also ask Russia for some troops in GB before Russia starts invading something in Scandinavia.
Im not so sure a French invasion goes as well, if GB and some Russian 10i-corps with ok Russian-Leader around. If france doesnt manage to land 2 corps, and thats not on good odds.

Regards
Bresh

[bresh]

ORIGINAL: gwheelock

Curent results (end of April 1805):

Prussia attacks Wurttemberg with Hohenlohe & 1 corp (containing ONLY 3 cav)
Chits are Echelon vs Counter Attack. Prussia wins
Losses 2 Prussian cav; 0 French

Spain assults Turkish controlled garrison in Tangiers;
Losses are 3 Sp I; 3 Tangiers I; Spain breaks; fails capture.

Britain conquors Sardinia from France (minor country combat)
France conquors Genoa from Britain (minor country combat)
France conquors Ansbach from Prussia
Russia conquors Holstein from France (minor country combat)
Russia conquors Hamberg from Spain (minor country combat)
Lapse of war between Russia & Sweden; Sweden controled by Britain
France creates Piedmont as free state
France creates Saxony as free state

current war status :


Prussian OOB now consists of 1 Cav; 8 Militia & 21 to 26 Infantry - 30 to 35 total

Just a quick question, it looks like Berlin French controlled. So Prussia is not forced to surrender yet, although capital is occupied and unbesieged.
Its been discussed around in the Forum, that the game forces surrender.

Regards
Bresh

[gwheelock]

Yes; Berlin is French occupied; but - from what I understand; having your capitol occupied forces you to SUE FOR PEACE; it does not force you to accept an UNconditional (which is what I am asking for [what I think I am
ENTITLED to given the current state of the Prussian army])  I don't know if the game is
making Prussa attept to do CONDITIONAL surrenders or not.
 

[Jimmer]

ORIGINAL: bresh
Thats alot of French forces to keep in ports all game, waiting for just that move.
Regards
Bresh

Correct. Which is why I called it "the ideal French setup". And, I wasn't talking about just blockading them. If the French player sets himself up correctly, there is a single collection of fleet strengths that forces GB to use the maximum number of ships to blockade (I think it's 14 in each of 5 ports, with 9 heavy ships each, but don't quote me on that, and then the rest scattered). If France does it correctly, GB is left with only about 5-10 ships remaining to guard the homeland. Having the Swedes show up on Frances side makes it much more difficult to keep them all in port.

[Jimmer]

ORIGINAL: bresh
If GB and Russia allied and if France setup that way, GB could also ask Russia for some troops in GB before Russia starts invading something in Scandinavia.

If GB and Russia are allied, then the only way either of them can control either country is if they are already influenced. If allied, declaring war would break the alliance with the other major. If neutral, at least in the board game (perhaps not in the computer game?), they cannot roll for control.

[Jimmer]

ORIGINAL: bresh
Only a small part of French navy can actually carry anything mentionworthy.
France with 39H+15H-Hollandish ships +20 transports.
At best thats 6 invasion fleets ? If you can settle for ~10i corps.
And if your want around 15 faktor corps, its 4 invasion fleets.

This is correct, and brings up a flaw in my analysis: I'm working primarily from fear of what happened in board-game incidents. The board game allowed 10 factors (always), and did not distinguish between cav and inf.

Since heavy and light fleets cannot carry corps together, this limits what France can bring. If using 9-factor heavy fleets, that's a cav and 7 inf. France COULD carry 2-3 boys on the light fleet that's with it, but that would limit is ability to field a real army elsewhere in Europe.

So, this point is very valid, and it's one I hadn't given a lot of thought to. I will do some playtesting against the computer. I'll change the default French setup to the ideal one, and then play a human France against a human GB and see what happens.

[Jimmer]

GB did almost nothing this turn. Moved a few fleets around. Could be positioning for an assault across the channel (by boat, of course). Moved one of the Swedish fleets to London, left the other (heavy) in Stockholm.

Also, there are reports that a small light fleet just "appeared" in a port north of London. Newskeepers and busybodies are attempting to discern the meaning of this act as we write this. Could GB have actually been employing <gasp> pirates? Or, perhaps this was a fleet being called back from anti-piracy duty.

--- EXTRA!!! ---
This just in: GB's Prime Minister has just made a statement declaring that GB does not employ pirates. This fleet was thus obviously coming back from combatting evil French pirates on the high seas.

Members of the opposition party were not available for comment, but are considered to consider the PM's statements as not very useful for promoting peaceful dialog with the one-handed Corsican Usurper. This reporter noted that all of the normal members of the opposition were at a rally posting signs that read "Make Love, not War!"

Members of the PM's own party were likewise unavailable for comment, but rumors have it that they were all playing a newfangled game called "gaulf" or "gulf" or something like that.

[bresh]

ORIGINAL: Jimmer

ORIGINAL: bresh
If GB and Russia allied and if France setup that way, GB could also ask Russia for some troops in GB before Russia starts invading something in Scandinavia.

If GB and Russia are allied, then the only way either of them can control either country is if they are already influenced. If allied, declaring war would break the alliance with the other major. If neutral, at least in the board game (perhaps not in the computer game?), they cannot roll for control.

All can roll for controll, but nations you at War with get +2
Only allied get a chance of control, only if noone else wants to, or if they have the minor influensed.

I tried write it in 2 paragraps to avoid mixing it, i guess i need to try again

If GB and Russia allied. Gb only gets control if its influensed. But then GB and Rus could talk about how to combine it. There are lotta options, 1 is like i said, wait, and reinforce GB with a Russian corps there.
But this would give France a hard time to get a good foothold in GB. But there are more ways.

If GB & Russia non-allied when/if Russia dows Denmark/Sweden, France doesnt always get control even with the +2.

Regards
Bresh

[Jimmer]

ORIGINAL: bresh
If GB & Russia non-allied when/if Russia dows Denmark/Sweden, France doesnt always get control even with the +2.

Regards
Bresh

True. However, don't forget that France (generally) get's a +1 for being dominant, and another +1 to +3 for his relationship with the minor(s).

[bresh]

ORIGINAL: Jimmer

ORIGINAL: bresh
If GB & Russia non-allied when/if Russia dows Denmark/Sweden, France doesnt always get control even with the +2.

Regards
Bresh

True. However, don't forget that France (generally) get's a +1 for being dominant, and another +1 to +3 for his relationship with the minor(s).

As far as i remember the rules the control check is compared to d12 rolls ?
So about the Russian prewar change is quite minor,
Its only aprox 1 in 6 games France gain control where they wouldnt before...

Regards
Bresh

[gwheelock]

OK; here are the results for the 1st half of May 1805:

France creates Piedmont & Saxony as free states

France does dp on Baden & Nassau making both neutral (from "Prussia Influenced")

Austria does dp on Hesse - no result
Austria does dp on Oldenberg - gets Influence

Russia does dp on Oldenberg - reverses Austrian influence; Oldenberg now neutral again ... OOPS
("I would rather fight allies than be one." - N. Boneparte)

Turkey does dp on Tunisia & Papacy both unsuccessful

Prussia does dp on Berg; gets Influence
Prussia does dp on Hesse - no result

France DOWs Munster - Austria gets control
France DOWs Oldenberg - SPAIN gets control
[Matrix; could you add variation of this [:D] smiley - with a tri-cornered hat &
one hand inside its vest?]

France attacks Stuttgart with Masenna & 2 corp vs 1 Prussian corp - no leader
Chits are Esc. Assulat vs Defend;
Casulties : 5 Pr I, 1 Pr C; 1 Fr I




France makes successful breakins in Oldenberg; Munster & Modena
Unsuccessful attemps in Wurzberg & Stettin; no attemp in Madgeberg

[trw2264]

It has been interesting reading the back and forth commentaries about the game and the cookie-cutter strategies that some are presenting. What seems to have gotten lost is that there are humans behind the game countries and that risk is associated with all that is done and negotiated and what might be the medium term plan of the country involved.

Being Spain, it could be argued that I should have not attacked Portugal, but it was a risk. Spain went after Portugal for a particular reason. Yes, most of Portugal’s fleet was destroyed on a suicide run by GB, but what if GB had not received control of Portugal? Again, there is risk involved and Portugal’s fleet in now useless for the short-term in regards to Spain, British and/or French use. Is that good or bad? Only Spain, GB and France know what their plans are and they will not be shared in this forum.

This is a game and every human brings a strategy to the table and, more than likely that strategy will change as the game progresses. If this game had a set strategy that all the players should follow then there would not be much of a need for the diplomacy part of it. Instead we have Prussia that broke a mold that said that Prussia should not DoW on France, especially by himself. Perhaps Prussia knows something that none of us know. Perhaps Austria and Russia failed on their backing of Prussia after the game had started, but Prussia tried to gather allies by forcing Austria and Russia out of their comfort zone and dealing with France earlier than most games do. Again, it was a risk. I am sure that Prussia knew what the risks were and how he planned to react to various situations. Now that Prussia and France have mended their ways, Prussia has an open ticket to question Russian and Austrian allegiance. Perhaps Prussia is now in France’s camp and Prussia might turn its eyes to Russia and Austria to form Poland because you never know what the condition of Austria and/or Russia might be in after France gets done with them that could afford Prussia an opportunity. Maybe I am just feeding information to make Austria and Russia paranoid. You just never know. I, for one, am very interested in seeing what Prussia will do in the next 24 months.

As Spain I might be a bit more worried now because France might be in a different place to do its cycle of countries to get political points from or does the loss of Portugal’s fleet put Spain in a position to better negotiate with GB or France because there are less ships available from 3rd parties, thus affording Spain a better negotiating position? Perhaps the Spanish player is just a knucklehead and squandered the Portuguese navy? Maybe Spain had no interest in Portugal’s navy at all, but was looking at Portugal’s land forces instead for something in the future. I vote that the Spanish player was just a knucklehead and bet the farm on GB not getting Portugal and not suiciding Portugal’s fleet and now the Spanish player is doomed for not hedging his risk and he should just throw in the towel now, because a cookie-cutter idea was not used.

Who knows, perhaps this forum is full of disinformation from the various players. Remember we are still playing the game. Perhaps, being underestimated is an advantage. This is not a quantitative game, but a qualitative game. I am sure that this post can and might be flamed, but those individuals will be acting in ignorance because they do not see both sides of what information the player is being fed and the information that the player is feeding to others.