island op-fire

[WanderingHead]

I could have sworn that there was originally (in GGWAW) a rule that you could move from your starting region without suffering op-fire. For the longest time, I thought that WAW had a bug in this regard, until I read the manual, which matches the implementation.

For island air op-fire (on naval units leaving the island's seazone), naval units that _start_ in the sea zone will be op-fired upon by enemy air units on the island. I don't believe this should be the case, I believe it should only apply to naval units that have _moved_ into the sea zone in that turn.

For example, say I have a huge stack of WA fleets in the central Med. The German now places a TB on Sicily. Now I can't get the naval units out. They may sit there turn after turn, getting picked off one by one, but the last thing they can do is run away. This strikes me as very nonsensical.

What would people think of removing island op-fire for naval units that _start_ the turn in that sea zone? Allow them to at least run away!

[SGT Rice]

Guess I'm not seeing how the game manual says this is OK; first it says:

8.2.1 Conditions that Cause Op-Fire (3rd bullet)

- Air units on an island will Op-Fire at non-submarine units and units moving strategicall via transports that move out of the sea region containing the island.

but then it says:

8.2.2 Op-Fire Details and Exceptions (1st bullet)

- A unit will never be Op-Fired at by units in the region it occupies whien it first moves out of the region it occupies at the beginning of its turn.

This seems to prohibit the problem you refer to. If it's happening in the game I would call it a bug that should be corrected.

[Vilhjalmr]

I agree it doesn't make sense for a group of naval units to be pinned down by perhaps just a single air unit, unable to retreat from the sea region while at the same time getting picked off one by one in the ensuing turns.

I am still playing WaW rather than AWD (so I'm not sure if these particular rules have changed between the versions), but I believe naval units currently do not receive island op-fire when they move into a sea zone, but rather when they move through it or when they leave the sea zone after having stopped there during the previous turn.

One solution might be to have the naval units op-fired upon when they first move into the sea zone, rather than when they move through it or leave the sea zone. This would preserve the current ability to op-fire against all naval units that move through the zone, whether they stop or not.

Another solution is to simply do away with the op-fire for units that start their turn in the sea zone. Thereby, if the naval units stopped in the zone, the onus would entirely be upon the island air units to attack the intruders if the naval units were to be fired upon at all during their passage through that sea zone.

In the first solution (in which op-fire automatically occurs for all naval units entering a sea zone), all the vessels would be op-fired upon. In the latter solution (in which no op-fire occurs against naval units who stop in the sea zone), none of the vessels would be op-fired upon - and the air units (during their turn) could only attack a portion of the naval units if they are fewer air units than naval units. In my opinion, the latter solution seems to be counterintuitive in that the naval units would be safer by lingering an additional three months (one turn) in the region, than by steaming through at full speed.

[GKar]

ORIGINAL: Vilhjalmr

I agree it doesn't make sense for a group of naval units to be pinned down by perhaps just a single air unit, unable to retreat from the sea region while at the same time getting picked off one by one in the ensuing turns.

I agree. I had a decent fleet "trapped" by just one plane (CAG?) on a Pacific island once. It wasn't realistic that it could take a shot at every ship (5+) leaving the zone (be it in the same turn as entering the zone or not, which it wasn't in my case).

ORIGINAL: Vilhjalmr

I am still playing WaW rather than AWD (so I'm not sure if these particular rules have changed between the versions), but I believe naval units currently do not receive island op-fire when they move into a sea zone, but rather when they move through it or when they leave the sea zone after having stopped there during the previous turn.

That is true.

[Forwarn45]

I have no objection to the change to allow ships to avoid op-fire at the beginning of their turns. But I'd suggest that the no-opfire rule only apply if the units are moving to a friendly or unoccupied seazone (as opposed to initiating combat by moving to a seazone occupied by enemy naval units).

[MrQuiet]

ORIGINAL: SGT Rice

Guess I'm not seeing how the game manual says this is OK; first it says:

8.2.1 Conditions that Cause Op-Fire (3rd bullet)

- Air units on an island will Op-Fire at non-submarine units and units moving strategicall via transports that move out of the sea region containing the island.

but then it says:

8.2.2 Op-Fire Details and Exceptions (1st bullet)

- A unit will never be Op-Fired at by units in the region it occupies whien it first moves out of the region it occupies at the beginning of its turn.

This seems to prohibit the problem you refer to. If it's happening in the game I would call it a bug that should be corrected.

Notice 8.2.2 says units will not be op-fired by units in the region it occupies when it first moves out of the region...

Islands are actually another region inside the sea zone. I think of it as a Island CAP Zone.
*note* If you place a air unit on CAP over a enemy occupied sea zone the enemy naval units will be allowed to steam away on there turn with no op-fire because the CAP is in the region it occupies

What you guys are asking for is akin to saying naval units should be able to move through narrows without op-fire if they start there turn boardering the narrows (extreme example I know)

I think the strength of Island op-fire is very important and should be preserved against naval units that get themselves into bad situations.

But the suggestion above to change the opfire to happen at the time the Naval unit enters the Island Cap Zone is very good and would match the same way it happens in a Narrows op-fire, making the op-fire rule more intuitive and uniform. Also I presume the warning pop-up would allert a sleepy player of impending danger.

So my oppinion stands at:
1) change the opfire to happen at the time the Naval unit enters the Island Cap Zone
if 1) not doable
2) NO Change to Island Op-fire

-MrQuiet

[SGT Rice]

I see your point. I agree with Brian's proposal to simply prohibit all OpFire against units in their starting regions.

[christian brown]

ORIGINAL: MrQuiet

What you guys are asking for is akin to saying naval units should be able to move through narrows without op-fire if they start there turn boardering the narrows (extreme example I know)

Not so, the crossing of a narrows involves moving through a narrows. Simply leaving your sea zone for another should not result in op-fire.....the Sicily example Brian uses above is a pretty scary concept. I'm actually really surprised it has not yet been exploited (to my knowledge at any rate.)

[WanderingHead]

ORIGINAL: MrQuiet
What you guys are asking for is akin to saying naval units should be able to move through narrows without op-fire if they start there turn boardering the narrows (extreme example I know)

Not really. I wasn't explicit about this, but actually all I want to change is island op-fire. I wouldn't suggest that naval units should be able to safely traverse a narrows just because they start adjacent to it. That would indeed be rather ludicrous.

I can see an unsupplied pair of TBs just capturing a whole stack of fleets that can never run away, yet can't actually be fired on by the TBs. Those fleets really ought to be able to flee.

I can see some surprising things happening in the Pacific as well, if you could perhaps sneak an airborne unit over a fleet onto an island then move air units to the island. Which would be more rare, but still the whole mechanic doesn't feel right. It doesn't reflect what I think op-fire is really intended to do.

And if naval units move into an island sea zone, wait a whole turn, then move on the next turn, I say more power to 'em. They sat there as perfectly good targets for a whole turn.

[GKar]

ORIGINAL: WanderingHead

I wouldn't suggest that naval units should be able to safely traverse a narrows just because they start adjacent to it. That would indeed be rather ludicrous.

(...)

And if naval units move into an island sea zone, wait a whole turn, then move on the next turn, I say more power to 'em. They sat there as perfectly good targets for a whole turn.

I agree on both accounts, although the main problem for me is that just one plane can pin down every number of fleets and shoot at each of them leaving the sea zone.

[Vilhjalmr]

It would be good to see any type of fix made, since it is indeed a flaw in gameplay.

I still recommend having op fire occur when the fleets enter the sea zone, as opposed to allowing fleets enter a sea zone, wait a turn, and then move on without taking any op fire at all. It just doesn't seem right that naval units wind up taking a much lower risk by spending an extra three months in a hot zone.

MrQuiet made an excellent point about equating island-based air units to CAP. If you move naval units into a CAP protected area, you immediately take fire. And if you end your turn in that zone, the air units have the option of attacking you again when it's their turn. Having island op fire occur immediately would be consistent with how CAP works.

If that would be a lot of work to implement or not the general consensus, that I certainly would be happy with just removing the op fire for units leaving a sea zone, as opposed to leaving the current system in place.

[MrQuiet]

ORIGINAL: Vilhjalmr


I still recommend having op fire occur when the fleets enter the sea zone, as opposed to allowing fleets enter a sea zone, wait a turn, and then move on without taking any op fire at all. It just doesn't seem right that naval units wind up taking a much lower risk by spending an extra three months in a hot zone.

I agree with Vilhjalmr.

The biggest strenth of airpower on Islands is there op-fire, I hate to see islands lose that strenth or have it watered down.

If you could treat a island with air like a unsinkable Carrier loaded with CAGs (for op-fire purposes) then that would be about right imo.

[SGT Rice]

ORIGINAL: Vilhjalmr


I still recommend having op fire occur when the fleets enter the sea zone, as opposed to allowing fleets enter a sea zone, wait a turn, and then move on without taking any op fire at all. It just doesn't seem right that naval units wind up taking a much lower risk by spending an extra three months in a hot zone.

I support this idea as well.

[GKar]

ORIGINAL: MrQuiet

If you could treat a island with air like a unsinkable Carrier loaded with CAGs (for op-fire purposes) then that would be about right imo.

I like the idea in general, but what I don't like is that you won't know you're going to be shot at, right? Unless I'm mistaken you won't see planes on an island from the adjacent sea zone. I'd consider that an inconsistency to how op-fire usually works. Or is there going to be an op-fire warning either way?

[Vilhjalmr]

You're right in that there should be an op fire warning of some sort so that you aren't suddenly locked into being op fired upon. (Although the evil side of me kind of likes that idea.) MrQuiet had a good suggestion earlier on in that the op fire warnings for islands be handled as similar as possible to the op fire warnings for narrows to keep everything uniform and intuitive. And hopefully that would mean less work to implement as well.

[Lebatron]

The current implementation has always bothered me too. As much as I like the idea of swapping it around so that op-fire occurs as you enter instead of when you leave, was an idea I jumped on a long way back but dismissed once I guessed(whether correctly or not) that this was probably thought of during the making of WAW but rejected in the end because it made islands to powerful. Consider this. If it was changed think how hard it would be for the Allies to attack the Italian fleet in the Central Med when some tac-air are on Sicily. Every HF making the move in would suffer tremedous suppression making it very unlikely they could ever score a hit. We all know the necessity of placing CAP over the Italian fleet to help protect it from superior British forces. However each one of those CAP planes can only shot at one ship. Place it on Sicily however and it all of a sudden it gains the ability to attack every ship coming to do combat in the Central Med. If this change was made I would never place a tac-air on CAP over the Central Med. Why when it would become exponentially more powerful on Sicily. I can see the arguments for making islands act just like CV's, but this change would take away a special ability that only CAG on CV's now enjoy. Would you want to cheapen that? Besides it just messes with balance way to much.

What I always wanted however was a limit on how many pot-shots air get to make on departing ships. Say a limit of 5 or less. In this way the power of opfire can be preserved, but would not be over the top. You take a risk on the first 5 you move out then the rest can escape without worry. The moving player gets to decide what to risk which is what I like about it. And the concession to the defending player is that island opfire can not be avoided by moving one sea zone at a time.

[GKar]

ORIGINAL: Lebatron

What I always wanted however was a limit on how many pot-shots air get to make on departing ships. Say a limit of 5 or less. In this way the power of opfire can be preserved, but would not be over the top. You take a risk on the first 5 you move out then the rest can escape without worry. The moving player gets to decide what to risk which is what I like about it. And the concession to the defending player is that island opfire can not be avoided by moving one sea zone at a time.

I thought about that as well. Maybe there should be a negative modifier for every op-fire shot done already. Like full attack for the first shot, -x for the second, -2x for the third, -3x for the fourth and so on. It's not like the same unit can shoot at everyone at the same time. I guess that x should be 2 or 3 in this case.

Overall I agree with Lebatron that we should be careful not to make planes on islands to powerful. There are a number of places in the Pacific where generous op-fire rules could be exploited as well.

[Vilhjalmr]

Great points! [&o] And thanks for the clarification with a prime example, as that rule hadn't made much sense to me until now.

Capping the total number of op fires would certainly help the problem WanderingHead had presented. Taking that a little further, I was wondering if there might be a way to randomize the total number of op fires allowed, say between 3-6, to still preserve a strong element of risk.

[MrQuiet]

Consider this. If it was changed think how hard it would be for the Allies to attack the Italian fleet in the Central Med when some tac-air are on Sicily. Every HF making the move in would suffer tremedous suppression making it very unlikely they could ever score a hit.

That is the whole point.
If the Britts want to engage the Italian Fleet without suppresion then they have to bring in the Assets to neutralize the air bases on the islands.
I dont see this as a balance problem because I feel the Italians are a liability more than a asset for Germany.
This rule would help Italy and Japan which are the weakest powers (excepting china)

So I am still at:
1) change the opfire to happen at the time the Naval unit enters the Island Cap Zone
if 1) not doable then:
2) NO Change to Island Op-fire

-MrQuiet

[Lebatron]

MrQ, I totally agree with what you said earlier "I think the strength of Island op-fire is very important and should be preserved against naval units that get themselves into bad situations." As I said, in general I like the idea of placing op-fire before, instead of after, island passings because it's more intuitive and uniform. My post was a warning that it would seriously effect game balance. I can already imagine how I would exploit such a change. As is it just can't be reversed without opening a big can of worms. But if op-fire was toned down then reversing it could work well.

A truely intuitive and uniform op-fire system should look like this.
1. Have air on islands op-fire immediately on hostile ship entry.
Why not make island based air act like the CAG/CV combo? disregard my balance objections for now. Just think in logic and principle.
2. Have air on sea zone CAP op-fire immediately on hostile ship entry.
Isn't a CAG on sea zone CAP inherently the same as a CAG on a CV? Then op-fire in both cases immediately.
There should be no difference between whether air is on the island or on CAP.

Additionally combat should
3. Include air on CAP in the sea battle. This is now standard practice.
4. Include air on the island in the sea battle too. This is new.
If air on an island is basically for air superiority over that sea zone, then why do they not participate in the sea battle? They should. If rule 4 existed it would no longer be necessary to keep replacing your fighter CAP each turn, they would defend the ships by default. The only time it would be necessary to use the standard CAP would be when a fleet moves into a new sea zone and doesn't yet have an island region to base from. For instance Japan has 4 fighters at Wake and his fleet moves to Midway. He would use the traditional CAP method over Midway to protect his fleet until he could rebase air to Midway. But if Japan's fleet stayed back in Wake with his 4 fighters on Wake, then by rule 4 it would be unecessary to for him to put those fighters on CAP because by default all air on an island provides automatic CAP on that sea zone.

Example 2. Italy has his fleet in the Central Med with one tac-air on CAP and one tac-air on Sicily. The way I see it there should be no difference between the two tac-air in terms of what they provide in defence. So given that logic they both would provide a small amount of op-fire on all entering hostile shipping, then both would take part in the sea battle. I envision the reason why Italy used a CAP instead of just placing both on Sicily to do the same thing could be intentional so that he could have the flexiblity of using range from Southern Italy to fly north next turn and was willing to pay the 1 supply point to put it on CAP instead of on Sicily. So yes there are times when CAP will still be used when placing on the island would suffice.

Since I'm saying there is no effective difference between sea zone CAP and air based on a island, and that both get to provide op-fire and participate in battle, then it's obvious that op-fire would need to be toned down. By how much? Hard to say.

This is the way I would like to see the system work, but it may be to much of a pain to program the battle engine to include units on the island for a battle taking place in the sea zone.