Placing depot in enemy city area?

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zaquex
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RE: Placing depot in enemy city area?

Post by zaquex »

HOWEVER, this situation COULD arise in normal gameplay:

France besieges the city, breaks in, and leaves a garrison behind.
Spain later besieges the city, fails to break or destroy the french force, and so is left outside the city.
Spain, on a later turn, builds a depot in this area.
Finally, Spain leaves the area completely, but leaves the depot behind.

So, the picture, by itself, is not illegal. However, the description the OP used of the events makes it so.

Your perfectly right

The depot is not in itself illegal, its the placement of it that is the problem. As a matter of fact once placed a depot never check its own legality, it only checks if its connected to a supply source. A depot is only removed by choice or by force - the only exception from this is a depot placed on a ship at sea that moves, but even this can be seen as a its being removed by choice/force depending on circumstances.
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RE: Placing depot in enemy city area?

Post by delatbabel »

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

Yes, I had a depot in Saragosa, but that would have been irrelevant if I wanted to place a depot in my home province of San Sebastion if I also had the friendly controlled unbeseiged city there.

San Sebastian is clearly not a friendly controlled unbeseiged city in my home territory in this case, so I shouldn't be able to place a depot there. Certainly not without a friendly corps in the area.

This is where the argument fails, as per rule 7.2.3 with exception 7.2.3.3.2:
7.2.3 DEPOTS IN SUPPLY CHAINS: A new depot may be placed within two unblocked areas of an already existing (before this Turn) depot that is a supply source or which is part of a valid supply chain.

San Sebastian is within 2 areas of Saragosa and therefore you may place a depot there. The reason you think you can't do that without a friendly corps in the area is because of this rule:
7.2.3.3.2: For a major power to place a new depot outside of its own territory, an unbesieged corps of that major power must be in that area.

However San Sebastian is not outside of your territory, and therefore you do not need to have an unbesieged corps in that area. You can place a depot there whether it is a supply source or not (it is not) because it is within your home territory and within two areas of an existing depot in a supply chain.
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RE: Placing depot in enemy city area?

Post by delatbabel »

ORIGINAL: Jimmer
No, Marshall is still incorrect on this one. The problem is that there is a word missing from the "Supply Source Definition" in the manual, which clouds matters. It SHOULD read "A 'supply source' is any unbesieged FRIENDLY-controlled ...". 10.3.3 cannot stand without the word "friendly", because otherwise it would allow one to use a ceded province's city to build a depot.

No, I disagree. Marshall is correct. San Sebastian is not a supply source and so the "Supply Source Definition" doesn't matter. San Sebastian is within two areas of an existing depot in a supply chain, and hence a depot can be placed there according to rule 7.2.3 as a depot in a supply chain.
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RE: Placing depot in enemy city area?

Post by delatbabel »

ORIGINAL: pzgndr
Uhh...hmm. I think technically Marshall's right, though it is a very strange rule.

Yes I agree. I would think 10.3.1 not being satisfied would override 10.3.3 being allowed, but I guess I have discovered a minor loophole here.

I do not see this as a major issue one way or another, just strange.

No, 10.3.1 (placing a depot in a supply source) and 10.3.3 (placing a depot along a supply chain) are valid alternatives -- the fact that one is not satisfied does not override the other. It is clearly intended by the rules that you can (turn 1) build a depot in a city and then (turn 2) build another depot 2 areas away from it, as part of the supply chain, whether there is a city there or not. On turn 2 if you were trying to build the depot outside of your home nation you would need a corps there. If it is being built inside your home nation you do not need a corps.
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RE: Placing depot in enemy city area?

Post by delatbabel »

ORIGINAL: ndrose

I don't think it matters who controls the rural area. If that were just an empty rural area inside Spain, with no forces on either side present, a depot could not be placed there, even within two spaces of another depot--could it? At least that's how I read the rules; I haven't tried it in the game.

That is, to create a depot, you need one of two things: a corps or a home nation *city*. Spain hasn't got either one here.

Nathan Rose

Not quite correct. If it is inside your home nation you do *not* need to have a corps there to place the depot. So you need one of three things, either (a) a corps, (b) a home nation city, or (c) an area within two areas of another depot inside your home nation, with or without a corps. Spain has (c) and therefore is legally entitled to build the depot (as the city garrison watch on in hunger).
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RE: Placing depot in enemy city area?

Post by bresh »

ORIGINAL: delatbabel

ORIGINAL: ndrose

I don't think it matters who controls the rural area. If that were just an empty rural area inside Spain, with no forces on either side present, a depot could not be placed there, even within two spaces of another depot--could it? At least that's how I read the rules; I haven't tried it in the game.

That is, to create a depot, you need one of two things: a corps or a home nation *city*. Spain hasn't got either one here.

Nathan Rose

Not quite correct. If it is inside your home nation you do *not* need to have a corps there to place the depot. So you need one of three things, either (a) a corps, (b) a home nation city, or (c) an area within two areas of another depot inside your home nation, with or without a corps. Spain has (c) and therefore is legally entitled to build the depot (as the city garrison watch on in hunger).

I do not belive (c) is correct, atleast not in EIANW.

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RE: Placing depot in enemy city area?

Post by pzgndr »

No, 10.3.1 (placing a depot in a supply source) and 10.3.3 (placing a depot along a supply chain) are valid alternatives

At this point I'm not questioning the validity of these two rules. However, 10.3.3 could be reconsidered to account for the presence of an enemy unit in the area. Technically the rule may not prevent depot placement in this case, but perhaps it should? The unbeseiged enemy garrison should have enough local control to prevent it. This is a case where EiANW can make a modest change to clarify things.

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RE: Placing depot in enemy city area?

Post by zaquex »

[font="times new roman"]7.2.1 DEPOT IN A FRIENDLY CITY AREA: A new depot may be placed in an area containing a friendly controlled unbesieged city, in that major power's territory.[/font]
[font="times new roman"][/font] 
[font="times new roman"]implies you cant place a depot in san sebastian[/font]
[font="times new roman"][/font] 
[font="times new roman"]Personally from reading all the depot rules I think the word garrisson is missing in:[/font]
[font="times new roman"][/font] 
[font="times new roman"]7.2 1 THE DEPOT CREATION/REMOVAL STEP ...Depots may not be placed in areas containing unbesieged enemy corps, guerrillas, freikorps or cossacks (unless an unbesieged corps of the major power placing the depot is also in that area)...[/font]
[font="times new roman"][/font] 
[font="times new roman"]It seems to be implied by:[/font]
[font="times new roman"][/font] [font="times new roman"]
7.2.3.2 SUPPLY CHAIN DEFINITION: A "supply chain" is a series of one major power's depots that are placed no more than two areas apart and lead back to a supply source of that major power.

7.2.3.2.1: SUPPLY SOURCE DEFINITION: A "valid" supply chain is one where the intervening areas between any of a supply chain's depots are not blocked by the presence of unbesieged enemy corps, garrisons, guerrillas, cossacks and/or freikorps (EXCEPTION: these enemy forces do not block an area if that area also contains an unbesieged friendly corps or garrison).

If its true that a garrisson blocks supply as per 7.2.3.2.1 then it would be strange that the restriction is weaker for placing a depot than for blocking a supply line and to me it makes logical sense that placement of a depot in san sebastian should be illegal without a corp.

And thats what "7.2.3 DEPOTS IN SUPPLY CHAINS: A new depot may be placed within two unblocked areas of an already existing (before this Turn) depot that is a supply source or which is part of a valid supply chain." actually says if you read it carefully. [/font]
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RE: Placing depot in enemy city area?

Post by Trin »

ORIGINAL: delatbabel

ORIGINAL: ndrose

I don't think it matters who controls the rural area. If that were just an empty rural area inside Spain, with no forces on either side present, a depot could not be placed there, even within two spaces of another depot--could it? At least that's how I read the rules; I haven't tried it in the game.

That is, to create a depot, you need one of two things: a corps or a home nation *city*. Spain hasn't got either one here.

Nathan Rose

Not quite correct. If it is inside your home nation you do *not* need to have a corps there to place the depot. So you need one of three things, either (a) a corps, (b) a home nation city, or (c) an area within two areas of another depot inside your home nation, with or without a corps. Spain has (c) and therefore is legally entitled to build the depot (as the city garrison watch on in hunger).

Spain does not have (c) as far as I can see, because the requirement to place a depot relying on the chain of supply test requires -

7.2.3 DEPOTS IN SUPPLY CHAINS: A new depot may be placed within two unblocked areas of an already existing (before this Turn) depot that is a supply source or which is part of a valid supply chain.

Its not enough that you are within two areas of a depot inside your home territory, you must be within two unblocked areas.... The area that this depot is being placed within, is blocked, so it does not satisfy the test.

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Marshall Ellis
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RE: Placing depot in enemy city area?

Post by Marshall Ellis »

Hey guys:
 
I think we're going to let common sense prevail and make it necessary to have a friendly unmoved corps if a home nation city is enemy controlled.
 
After looking at the actual operation (Placing a depot in an area with an enemy controlled city and not friendly unmoved corps present) it seems that this is ludicrous and should be illegal. Maybe this wasn't addressed because there is no strategic reason to do this :-)
 
 I guess this technically could be a deviation but does anybody have a problem with this?
 
 
 
 
Thank you

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Outflank Strategy War Games


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RE: Placing depot in enemy city area?

Post by Monadman »

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

After looking at the actual operation (Placing a depot in an area with an enemy controlled city and not friendly unmoved corps present) it seems that this is ludicrous and should be illegal.

Where’s that “easy” button? [:)]

The following has been added to the Supply Chain Restrictions in section 10.3.3 to clarify this issue.

If there is an enemy controlled city in the major power’s territory, a depot may only be placed in that city area, as part of a supply chain, if a corps of that major power is in that city area.

Richard

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RE: Placing depot in enemy city area?

Post by Marshall Ellis »

Richard:
 
It's amazing what can be acomplished in a dozen emails, huh? LOL!
 
 
Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games


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