RIDERS ON THE STORM-THANK YOU

[Gen.Hoepner]

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/02/42

Yes, china is gone.
5 Jap Tank regiments pushed forwards, destroying what supposed to be 4 full chinese corps...now at Liuchow i have nearly 800 AVs but badly supplies...and his tanks are already there because they pursued the attack...so now the pocket is closed.
Say good-bye to China.
My whole central and southern Army is trapped.

My mistake...i understimate the chance that he could bring all those units to Canton...i was an idiot and now i pay for my idiocy[:o]



-
Look at how many planes he's using to support is attack in the south...it's impossible to hold...[:@][:o]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 23rd Chinese Corps, at 46,37

Japanese aircraft
G3M Nell x 15
G4M1 Betty x 23
Ki-15 Babs x 1

No Japanese losses


Allied ground losses:
73 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Aircraft Attacking:
15 x G3M Nell bombing at 6000 feet
12 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 6000 feet
11 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 22nd New Chinese Division, at 43,39

Japanese aircraft
D3A2 Val x 14

No Japanese losses


Allied ground losses:
35 casualties reported

Aircraft Attacking:
14 x D3A2 Val bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 200th Chinese Division, at 43,37

Japanese aircraft
D3A2 Val x 104

No Japanese losses


Allied ground losses:
168 casualties reported
Guns lost 4

Aircraft Attacking:
28 x D3A2 Val bombing at 2000 feet
23 x D3A2 Val bombing at 2000 feet
28 x D3A2 Val bombing at 2000 feet
25 x D3A2 Val bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 36th Chinese Corps, at 41,37

Japanese aircraft
D3A2 Val x 16

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A2 Val: 4 damaged


Allied ground losses:
17 casualties reported

Aircraft Attacking:
16 x D3A2 Val bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 1st New Chinese Corps, at 44,38

Japanese aircraft
Ki-30 Ann x 12

No Japanese losses


Allied ground losses:
26 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Aircraft Attacking:
12 x Ki-30 Ann bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 1st Chinese Cavalry Corps, at 45,37

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21-II Sally x 7
Ki-49 Helen x 54
Ki-15 Babs x 1

No Japanese losses


Allied ground losses:
46 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 6000 feet
11 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 6000 feet
15 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 6000 feet
10 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 6000 feet
11 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 6000 feet
4 x Ki-21-II Sally bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Ki-21-II Sally bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 52nd Chinese Corps, at 42,38

Japanese aircraft
B5N2 Kate x 16
E13A1 Jake x 1

No Japanese losses


Allied ground losses:
6 casualties reported

Aircraft Attacking:
16 x B5N2 Kate bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 100th Chinese Corps, at 45,37

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21-II Sally x 6
Ki-49 Helen x 24
Ki-15 Babs x 1

No Japanese losses


Allied ground losses:
33 casualties reported
Guns lost 3

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 6000 feet
4 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 6000 feet
6 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 6000 feet
2 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Ki-21-II Sally bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Ki-21-II Sally bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 25th Chinese Corps, at 46,37

Japanese aircraft
A5M4 Claude x 17
D3A2 Val x 17
B5N2 Kate x 18
Ki-30 Ann x 24
Ki-32 Mary x 36

Japanese aircraft losses
A5M4 Claude: 1 damaged


Allied ground losses:
186 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

Aircraft Attacking:
18 x Ki-32 Mary bombing at 2000 feet
24 x Ki-30 Ann bombing at 2000 feet
18 x Ki-32 Mary bombing at 2000 feet
17 x D3A2 Val bombing at 2000 feet
18 x B5N2 Kate bombing at 6000 feet
17 x A5M4 Claude bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 2nd New Chinese Corps, at 46,37

Japanese aircraft
G3M Nell x 4
G4M1 Betty x 10
Ki-15 Babs x 1

No Japanese losses

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 6000 feet
4 x G3M Nell bombing at 6000 feet
4 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 78th Chinese Corps, at 45,37

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21-II Sally x 3
Ki-49 Helen x 12
Ki-15 Babs x 1

No Japanese losses


Allied ground losses:
4 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Ki-21-II Sally bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 47th Chinese Guer./C Corps, at 50,32

Japanese aircraft
Ki-51 Sonia x 6
Ki-15 Babs x 1

No Japanese losses


Allied ground losses:
22 casualties reported

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x Ki-51 Sonia bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 60th Chinese/A Corps, at 44,40

Japanese aircraft
A5M4 Claude x 24
A6M2 Zero x 16
E13A1 Jake x 1
Ki-27 Nate x 10

No Japanese losses


Allied ground losses:
22 casualties reported

Aircraft Attacking:
24 x A5M4 Claude bombing at 2000 feet
10 x Ki-27 Nate bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Karachi , at 21,3

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21-II Sally x 65
Ki-46-II Dinah x 1

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-21-II Sally: 8 damaged


Allied ground losses:
41 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

Airbase hits 3
Runway hits 56

Aircraft Attacking:
9 x Ki-21-II Sally bombing at 11000 feet
10 x Ki-21-II Sally bombing at 11000 feet
4 x Ki-21-II Sally bombing at 11000 feet
12 x Ki-21-II Sally bombing at 11000 feet
3 x Ki-21-II Sally bombing at 11000 feet
4 x Ki-21-II Sally bombing at 11000 feet
4 x Ki-21-II Sally bombing at 11000 feet
3 x Ki-21-II Sally bombing at 11000 feet
3 x Ki-21-II Sally bombing at 11000 feet
3 x Ki-21-II Sally bombing at 11000 feet
3 x Ki-21-II Sally bombing at 11000 feet
2 x Ki-21-II Sally bombing at 11000 feet
3 x Ki-21-II Sally bombing at 11000 feet
2 x Ki-21-II Sally bombing at 11000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at 42,38

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 14288 troops, 8 guns, 400 vehicles, Assault Value = 405

Defending force 15516 troops, 13 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 469

Japanese max assault: 748 - adjusted assault: 273

Allied max defense: 369 - adjusted defense: 7 ....WHAT?!!?!?!?!?!??! from 469 to 7!??!?!?!?![:o][:o][:o][:o][:o]

Japanese assault odds: 39 to 1


Japanese ground losses:
178 casualties reported
Vehicles lost 9

Allied ground losses:
288 casualties reported


Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Changsha

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 11610 troops, 184 guns, 72 vehicles, Assault Value = 9379

Defending force 174735 troops, 846 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 4590

Japanese max assault: 30 - adjusted assault: 2

Allied max defense: 4559 - adjusted defense: 5533

Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1 (fort level 7)


Japanese ground losses:
915 casualties reported
Guns lost 22
Vehicles lost 8

Allied ground losses:
420 casualties reported

...again....[:o]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at 44,40

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 10107 troops, 36 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 261

Defending force 9133 troops, 27 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 327

Japanese max assault: 240 - adjusted assault: 195

Allied max defense: 299 - adjusted defense: 53

Japanese assault odds: 3 to 1


Japanese ground losses:
197 casualties reported
Guns lost 3

Allied ground losses:
12 casualties reported


Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

these were the units already pocketed near Canton...

[castor troy]

can´t you just tell him that he´s an i***t and he should stop those small one unit attacks as this is just a gamey exploit and he´s not a genius tactician but a d**k? If those "special attacks" are not in the house rules you agreed to I would just tell him that I would stop playing if he doesn´t stop it...

If you have a regiment attacking in the East why should it stop a whole Army moving WEST??? It´s a bad design decision but he´s exploiting it. If he would attack with his whole army, okay, but not with one small unit on a suicide mission...

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner
...again....[:o]

Hi G. H.,

I've refrained from commenting on Troll's issues in game since you requested us to a while back, but I feel I have to chime in here and say something before it's too late. Up till now you’ve played a gentlemen’s game and been consummately patient with your opponent’s antics.

I’ve admired and respected your behavior and enjoyed this AAR largely because of your style of dealing with whatever issues are thrown your way and not harping on the problems they raise but rather searching for a solution to the problem, even when others so passionately want you to deal with the negative aspects of the issue.

What Troll is doing now in Changsha can in no way, shape or form can be construed as gamesmanship. What he’s doing is gaming the code and the results of his code exploitation are going to cost you all of China.

He is going to simply attack your units every turn with a tiny unit to pin them in place in Changsha while he encircles them and then destroys them in detail. Absolutely no argument can be made that this is either fair or reasonable play and if I were you I’d view it as a malicious and hostile act and treat it as such.

Regardless of house rules agreed upon prior to your play, it’s time for you to dig in your heels and call Troll on this hostile act and tell him it’s a game breaker, as any reasonable person would. I think all Troll has done with your reasonable and gentlemanly style of play is to exploit it and use it against you.

It’s time to stand up for yourself. I would personally hate to see this game end, but I think it will be all downhill from here if you don’t stop him from using such nasty exploits for the rest of the game. I’d demand that while you’ll stick to the original house rules agreed upon, he must commit to not exploiting the code anymore.

Otherwise I suspect the game will eventually devolve into a rather negative affair where all he does is exploit one thing after another without actually trying to play the game itself.

Jim

[witpqs]

Jim is right. Demand he straighten up.

[Nemo121]

General,
 
Jim said it very well indeed. I think the key question here is "Would you do this in real life?" Now I know that the freewheeling way I play isn't to everyone's taste BUT I don't order things in-game I wouldn't order in real life and which don't have some basis in real world tactics.
 
What Trollelite is doing is is taking advantage of game code to gain benefit from things which would never have had any beneficial impact in real life. Just because it wasn't something forbidden by the pre-start rules does that make it right? No. I'm sure your pre-start rules didn't specifically preclude hacking the database but it would be understood that that wasn't in keeping with good sportsmanship even without ever having been explicitly stated. These issues are on the same level.

Admittedly you did agree to these rules BUT there's a limit to how far you can be expected to take this sort of thing.

[FeurerKrieg]

No name calling from me, but this style of play is just ridiculous. I could understand if it was an open season lunacy game and both sides were unrestricted.

Anyways - this game is just not that entertaining anymore. It is like watching a boxing match where one guy's arms are tie behind his back.

Sorry GH - but I don't think I'm going to subscribe to this one anymore, reading these posts is just way to frustrating when we can't comment on Troll's gameplay and behavior.

Best of luck - but if I were you'd I'd bail on this game and start one with a better opponent.

F.K.

[aztez]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Jim is right. Demand he straighten up.

Agreed. It is getting utterly disgusting in China and I doubt it is going change in the future.

I think you should demand him to straighten his act. Many loop holes he is using and will keep on using if he is allowed to do so.

However it is down to you guys to sort the game since you are actually playing. If you are fine with the things he doing than I will 100% shut my mouth. The PBEM is down to mutual respect.

[hades1001]

That's why my HRs are so detailed in many ways because I know if something is not clear, nasty things could happen.
 
However, I don't think anything wrong if "you know who" do anything you guys think it is "gamey" the first time.
If the player doesn't feel good about what your opponent did, just tell him.
 
Hrs can be changed anytime based on neigotiation. Just bring it up. Troll don't read this AAR and I'm sure he doesn't know something you guys just don't like. G.H should talk directly both for yourself and this thread.

[Andy Mac]

Guys its GH's game only he can make this call it still looks like a fun game maybe its better to just sit back get the popcorn and enjoy the ride.
 
One thing I have learned is that ONLY the people actually playing the game can make these calls as to whether something is beyond the pale so as long as GH is willing to go on I suggest we all take a step back and let him enjoy it !!!. (I am not exactly a fan of trollelites attitude or some of the things he has said about me but this is NOT orur game) as long as GH is happy thats all that matters after its his game.
 
 

[hades1001]

andy is right, I believe someone in this thread or someone else has done the same thing before.
 
It's the G.H, who is the only one person can decide whether to continue this game. Anyone else should keep quite about this topic.

[witpqs]

We are not telling GH what to do, just suggesting he make reasonable demands. It is clear he is both unhappy with his opponents behavior and he is being taken advantage of.

GH - I will shut up on this topic now. [:)]

[Nomad]

OK, GH, time to buck up now. China is not lost, yet. Here is a picture of a game I am playing - as you can see it is much worse than your situation:

Don't even try to defend Lichow, pull pack to Tuyun, it is in the forest, better defence. You will have to find ways to get units back, got any transport aircraft? Use them. Try using one unit at Changsa to attack him and retreat the rest, I think that still works. Bottopm line, war is hell and you must win - there is no other alternative.

[Gen.Hoepner]

Guys, i wanna be clear with you, as i've always been clear with Trollelite.
I DO have fun playing this game.
It's challenging. It's trhilling. It's tense.
I can disagree with some of Trollelite ways of playing, but this doesn't change my attitude towards this match.

I can lose China...yes, but i've learnt something, as i learnt something losing India (gotta thank Jim for his suggestion about the "Karachi-redoubt" strategy which is paying its dividends[;)])...but tomorrow, when it will come Russia's time, i'll be ready!

I'm sorry some of you won't be reading this AAR anymore. I'll sincerly miss you. You've been both very usefull, with all your wise suggestions, and kind to lose your time reading this bad-english thread.... but i stick on my policy, which i find correct and polite towards an opponent that, despite some different povs, hasn't the chance of reading this thread. So i won't comment anymore nor answer any post about his way of playing and i'll force myself only to speak about strategies.

And,however, there's something important that happened today.
Don't ask me how...the land combat system is really beyond my menthal capacities....
Look at what happened...

His attacks against Changsha has pinned down my units, setting their movements rate to zero every single day...but today, all of a sudden...some 2000 AVs instantly moved back to Hangchow, while 3000 more remained pinned at Changsha...how this madness could happen is far beyond my comprehension...but it did![&:]...now my units are trying to save Liuchow...i have to rush..hoping he's not arriving there first with his reinforcements from Whocow...otherwise i'm toasted anyway...
My main mistake was not leaving a strong reserve behind my shoulders in China...with the stupid idea of trying to save changsha i left my back unguarded...and that's the result[:@]

Seriously: the fall of the southern front isn't really a Trollelite's merit...i mean, he played smartly at Canton, that's sure...but a good general does always keep a reserve!...there's still a long long way to be a good general, dear Hoepner[:D]

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/03/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Naval bombardment of Karachi, at 21,3

Japanese Ships
CA Kako
CA Aoba
CA Mogami
CA Takao


Allied ground losses:
2073 casualties reported
Guns lost 42

Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 13
Port hits 7
Port fuel hits 4

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Karachi , at 21,3

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21-II Sally x 105
Ki-49 Helen x 25
Ki-46-II Dinah x 1

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49 Helen: 1 damaged


Allied ground losses:
94 casualties reported
Guns lost 4

Airbase hits 2
Airbase supply hits 3
Runway hits 38



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Changsha

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 12224 troops, 200 guns, 52 vehicles, Assault Value = 9361

Defending force 104600 troops, 403 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 2783

Japanese max assault: 23 - adjusted assault: 4

Allied max defense: 2476 - adjusted defense: 1815

Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1 (fort level 7)


Japanese ground losses:
689 casualties reported
Guns lost 9
Vehicles lost 8

Allied ground losses:
293 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

...you see? I've lost nearly 3000 AVs...they moved to Hangchow!!!...tomorrow i bet he will shock attack Chansgha....[;)]

[Gen.Hoepner]

ORIGINAL: Nomad

OK, GH, time to buck up now. China is not lost, yet. Here is a picture of a game I am playing - as you can see it is much worse than your situation:

Don't even try to defend Lichow, pull pack to Tuyun, it is in the forest, better defence. You will have to find ways to get units back, got any transport aircraft? Use them. Try using one unit at Changsa to attack him and retreat the rest, I think that still works. Bottopm line, war is hell and you must win - there is no other alternative.

Nomad...i have nothing beyond Liuchow!!! Everything was put at Changsha...i have only one choice: save Chansha army or lose everything[>:]

You know what's really interesting? if he conquers china then it will be Russia's time...that would be cool[;)]

[Nomad]

Gen Hoepner, I am trying to keep you spirits up and find ways to help you. [:D] I have, and still will read your AAR. I think when the going gets tough, then the war is more fun. I was just trying to show you that there is a lot to China and losing an army or two can be overcome. One thing that will be very hard to overcome is the lack of supply. Without being able to fly some from India, china will be on a shoestring.

Now, do you have some transport aircraft? Think about flying some LCUs from Sian or Homan to Chunking or Liuchow.

Since 40% of them moved that turn, things may not be as bad as you think. Hope dear General, hope - sometimes it is all we have.

[Gen.Hoepner]

ORIGINAL: Nomad

Gen Hoepner, I am trying to keep you spirits up and find ways to help you. [:D] I have, and still will read your AAR. I think when the going gets tough, then the war is more fun. I was just trying to show you that there is a lot to China and losing an army or two can be overcome. One thing that will be very hard to overcome is the lack of supply. Without being able to fly some from India, china will be on a shoestring.

Now, do you have some transport aircraft? Think about flying some LCUs from Sian or Homan to Chunking or Liuchow.

Since 40% of them moved that turn, things may not be as bad as you think. Hope dear General, hope - sometimes it is all we have.

I agree: whe things get tough, then the toughest come down and play[:D]
Anyway, i do have only 8 transport planes in China...so no chance of flying some troops nowhere...
However i hope. I do hope! I only need that those 800 AVs at Liuchow hold for some turns...some more days...com'on!!!!!!!!!

Supply is however an issue. I cannot even upgrade my 2 buffalos squadrons at Chungking because there's not a single base in the whole china that has 20,000 supplies[:@]....

But i fight...i fight for every single step, for every single rock, tree or rice field of China!
Till the last man.
Till the last sip of blood
Till the end.

[Nomad]

OK, try this, I think it still works. At Changsa, have one unit defend. All other units should be given movement orders to a CITY - important that they have orders to move to a city. Please give it a try, it will not affect anything if it doesn't work like I think - all your units will just stay there.

[Wirraway_Ace]

ORIGINAL: Nomad

OK, try this, I think it still works. At Changsa, have one unit defend. All other units should be given movement orders to a CITY - important that they have orders to move to a city. Please give it a try, it will not affect anything if it doesn't work like I think - all your units will just stay there.

This works well in the UV (though base vs. city). I have been able to use rear-guards successfully against determined and spoiling attacks while my retreating unit's movement is not reset to zero. Additionally, if the regard retreats as a result of combat, all the units in the hex bug-out faster than the rear-guard (as you might expect in combat). I have been trying to follow your India and China campaigns GH to see the effect of rear-guards in WiTP.

As a Newbie to WiTP, I greatly appreciate this forum. It is the single best strategy and tactics discussion out there.

One more note. As a veteran paratrooper, I cringe at the thought at only being able to employ airborne forces against base hexes. A vertical envelopment throughout the enemy's operational depth to break his lines of communication, sieze key river-crossings, etc should be something the game engine can handle. I don't know Troll's motives behind his airborne drops in India, but there should be some means of cutting enemy lines of communication by airborne assault. A house rule that you might consider is a drop is legal within one hex of a base. This would force you to detail units to guard hexes behind your lines if you fear airborne assualt, but keep the number of airbone objectives to a reasonable number.

Thoughts from a Newbie who really enjoys this forum...

[Feinder]

Wirraway - the squawk over Troll's use of paras is that the game grants control of the hex whether the unit has 10 or 10,000 men.  You can drop 2 squads of paras on a road behind 5x Corps of units, and engine allows them to mark control of entire (60 mile hex), and the 5x Corps will surrender.

-THAT- is the problem people have with using paras in such a way.

I understand what you are saying about dropping ONTO-INTO an enemy base.  Again, that is a limitation of the engine, and that the hexes are 60 miles.  In reality, if you were going to drop to support an attack on a base, even NOT on the base, but as paras cut of the base in support of a general assault, you probably wouldn't drop 60 miles away (which is what you'd be doing in WitP if you dropped in an adjacent hex). My guess is you'd drop within 12 miles(?) of the general objective, which would be in the same hex in WitP terms.

I'll just throw in, for those who might not know...  While I have not formally tested it, one of the devs mentioned that if you use paras during a attack in combination with regular LCUs, the paras modify the defenders by 1/2.  I haven't formally tested it, so proceed with caution.  But the game does try to simulate the effects of a coordinated assault by paras and a general attack (again, haven't formally tested it, it's just what I rememebr reading a post).

-F-

[Bearcat2]

I have been reading your thread since the beginning; I have enjoyed it immensly and  I have learned a lot from both the game itself and the class you have exhibited in your style of play.
Thanks.