Cannot do unconditional surrender if captol occupied

[gwheelock]

Prussia is trying to do an unconditional surrender to France.
France is occupying Berlin.
Prussia selects "Sue for Peace"; says "YES" to accept unconditional
When trying to exit turn; it says
"Berlin has fallen to France so you must sue France for Peace"
and does NOT allow the turn to end.

Here is a copy of the game files for Prussia
pw = "martha"

[Jimmer]

As a side note, this is happening in a real game we are running right now. So, it would be good if you guys would respond here should you find out what's causing it. Specifically, can we "negotiate" a settlement:
 
Prussia declares that he WILL surrender (terms TBD).
France takes all the factors out of Berlin and moves away.
Prussia surrenders the next turn.
 
We would like to know if this scenario for drawing the war to conclusion will work or not.
 
Thanks.

[Monadman]

Guys,

I have attached two outcomes for you to choose from.

1. Prussia surrendered unconditionally
2. Prussia advanced without surrendering

Note: In 1.02, there will be no forced surrenders for unbesieged occupation of the home nation capital and there will be no way to avoid surrender if a side cannot collect any home nation manpower during an economic phase.

Richard

[Murat]

Will the surrender for no manpower be to all majors that player is at war with? any chance of putting in the full rule where the major nation is dissolved if they cannot collect MP?

[Monadman]

ORIGINAL: Murat

Will the surrender for no manpower be to all majors that plaer is at war with? any chance of putting in the full rule where the major nation is dissolved if they cannot collect MP?

They must surrender to all major powers that they are at war with but there are no plans to eliminate a major power from the game due to civil disorder.

Richard

[Jimmer]

I would like to see that, too, Murat. It changes the dynamics of the game fairly significantly if it's in place. No longer can a power force another to occupy everything before surrendering unconditionally. They must weight the odds at least every economic phase that they will still be playing the following month if they "stick it out".
 
Without "hard civil disorder" in place, there is very little incentive for a power to surrender unconditionally unless they are completely occupied. So, they continue to turn down all unconditionals. It essentially means that nobody will ever surrender unconditionally.
 
In my next game, I'm going to ask for "informal" hard civil disorder as a house rule. Basically, if someone can't collect any home nation manpower, they're gone, and the AI can play their country from that time forward.

[zaquex]

The soft civil disorder rules and the cant cede more than 3 home provinces is both in my oppinion bad for the game dynamics the more incentive to surrender early the better. To prolong the battle to the bitter end is usually ruining both the fun and the impact that major power can have on the game for a long time anyway and will usually eventually end in a player drop anyway and that disrupts the game even more than the harsher rules. 

[gwheelock]

I agree that the hard civil disorder is a better incentive.  The question is how much work
would it be to impliment?  (How hard of a change is it to handle the case where there
is NO "xxxxx Player" because he totally evaporated?)
 

[zaquex]

I think thats impossible to say without knowing a fair bit of the internal of the program, it could be very easy to implement or require a total rework of how the engine is handling the phasing.

[Murat]

Well if it is too much work then there should be some trigger to force surrender. Maybe loss of capital for 2 - 3 months or loss of capital combined with having only 50% of the factors the nation starts with or something similar.

[Jimmer]

Actually, I think it would be trivial to code "hard civil disorder" into the program (much easier than "soft" civil disorder, even):
 
1)  Determine if the conditions are met
2)  If so, then remove the player's name and change it to "Computer, Easy AI"

[gwheelock]

ORIGINAL: Jimmer

Actually, I think it would be trivial to code "hard civil disorder" into the program (much easier than "soft" civil disorder, even):

1)  Determine if the conditions are met
2)  If so, then remove the player's name and change it to "Computer, Easy AI"

But that doesn't completely ELIMINATE the country - the national capitol
cannot be conquored. & will continue to produce some troops. If those
troops are totally ignored; they may "reconquor" a piece of their country.

[zaquex]

In a real "harsh" civil disorder the power would seize to exist and its home provinces would become ceded provinces to the occupier of the provincial capital or if unoccupid to the power controlling the major national capital.
 
Depending on how the turn sequense is implemented this might cause more or less trouble to change.
 
 

[bresh]

ORIGINAL: Monadman

ORIGINAL: Murat

Will the surrender for no manpower be to all majors that plaer is at war with? any chance of putting in the full rule where the major nation is dissolved if they cannot collect MP?

They must surrender to all major powers that they are at war with but there are no plans to eliminate a major power from the game due to civil disorder.

Richard

Hi Richard !
This is actually a rather important update for us pbm gamers.
Any chance it could come as soon as possible in a beta patch ?

Cheers
Bresh

[Jimmer]

ORIGINAL: gwheelock

ORIGINAL: Jimmer

Actually, I think it would be trivial to code "hard civil disorder" into the program (much easier than "soft" civil disorder, even):

1)  Determine if the conditions are met
2)  If so, then remove the player's name and change it to "Computer, Easy AI"

But that doesn't completely ELIMINATE the country - the national capitol
cannot be conquored. & will continue to produce some troops. If those
troops are totally ignored; they may "reconquor" a piece of their country.

You're right, of course. However, the way I think of it is that, having the AI play it is almost like having it be neutral property. They AI doesn't actually DO anything.

[Monadman]

ORIGINAL: bresh

ORIGINAL: Monadman

ORIGINAL: Murat

Will the surrender for no manpower be to all majors that plaer is at war with? any chance of putting in the full rule where the major nation is dissolved if they cannot collect MP?

They must surrender to all major powers that they are at war with but there are no plans to eliminate a major power from the game due to civil disorder.

Richard

Hi Richard !
This is actually a rather important update for us pbm gamers.
Any chance it could come as soon as possible in a beta patch ?

Cheers
Bresh

Bresh,

I hear you. We are down to a few more issues (including this one) before releasing 1.02. The temp access function is taking some time to implement.

Richard

[Monadman]

ORIGINAL: Murat

Well if it is too much work then there should be some trigger to force surrender. Maybe loss of capital for 2 - 3 months or loss of capital combined with having only 50% of the factors the nation starts with or something similar.

Murat,

We have left some forced surrender triggers in place. Here’s how they will work.

AI Easy: if home nation capital is unbesieged and occupied for one month
AI Medium: if home nation capital is unbesieged and occupied for two months
AI Hard: if home nation capital is unbesieged and occupied for three months

Human: if no home nation manpower can be collected.

Richard

[delatbabel]

Bresh,

I hear you. We are down to a few more issues (including this one) before releasing 1.02. The temp access function is taking some time to implement.

Richard

Will this require a game restart or will the new surrender rule be in place for old 1.01 games upgraded to 1.02?

FWIW, we play without "hard" civil disorder (essentially civil disorder is what happened to Prussia in 1806 but they survived, Blucher was there in Waterloo in 1815, and they were the dominant power of Europe by 1870). The incentive to surrender early is: "Surrender unconditionally now and I will let you off with an easy peace -- 36 months peace, 1/2 reparations, royal marriage. If you force me to take all of your capitals then I will make the conditions much harsher -- 3 provinces, loss of corps, full reparations." It's all about negotiating.