Modifications to MWiF China Map portion

[marcuswatney]

deleted

[marcuswatney]

ORIGINAL: Fishbed

But Peiking (Beijing) is named Peiking (Beijing) on the map, while this used to be its name before 1928, and after 1949, but not between 1928 and 1949, which is exactly the scope of this game, isn't it? And this is for a reason: Peiking (Beijing - which means "the northern capital") was renamed Peiping (Beiping - which means "the northern peace") in 1928 because Nanking (Nanjing -which means the "southern capital") became the KMT's official capital city. Peiking losing its official status, they decided it had to lose its name too, and that name didn't come back before the Communist take over in 1949, which reverted to Peiking (Beijing) as a capital city.

I didn't realise the name change incorporated a subtle change of meaning too. Very interesting.

Some time ago, I think we agreed to use English exonyms throughout the game ... so 'Germany' not 'Deutschland'. Consulting my 1936 and 1942 school-boy atlases, I am intrigued to discover that the city was named Peiping in 1936 (with its own province of the same name reaching almost to Tientsin) but in 1942 it had reverted to Peking and the mini-province had disappeared.

Personally, I'd vote for Peking as the name familiar to anglophones at the time.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney
Personally, I'd vote for Peking as the name familiar to anglophones at the time.

Same.

[Fishbed]

I am intrigued to discover that the city was named Peiping in 1936 (with its own province of the same name reaching almost to Tientsin) but in 1942 it had reverted to Peking and the mini-province had disappeared.

I suppose it had to do with the Japanese occupation - the Chinese muppet governement there most probably chose to call it Peiking again (got to check it out). It is sure, anyway, that Peiking will be much more familiar for the english-speaking players. Peiping may be a nice nit-picking touch, though I suppose there are only small chances the Japanese player will not take the city and have it renamed [;)]

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Fishbed
Ive been 2 years in Nanchang myself, and I cand positively confirm that the Gan river (Kan on your map) protects Nanchang western approachs, not eastern as it is the case on the preview map.

Note that the west bank of the Gan Jiang was built up only during the last decades, and before that, I doubt there was anything across the Gan Jiang, even a bridge. It is quite important, because this means an agressor, like the Japanese historically, should attack unopposed from the east, while Chinese reinforcements from the north, the west and the south-west would have to cross the river. Nanchang being an important battleground of the Sino-Japanese war, I think that modification would come handy [8D]

I would advocate that the Gan/Kan river travels on the opposite side of the Nanchang Hex. This way, it will cross the Changsha-Nanchang railway in the south, like that:

What do you think? [:)]

That you're right, and that this bothers me a lot, because you know what ? This place was as you described before I modified it. This means that I modified in a way that was wrong, and this bothers me.
I'll have another drawing done, and will give the changes to Steve, hoping he will include them with the Yellow River change.

I'd see no problem to turn Nanchang into a marshy hex either, anyway. That west bank of hers used to be unsuitable for anything before modern construction means were available, and there's still mud and water everywhere around the city...

I won't go that far. A swamp hex needs the place to be really swampy, kind of the Mekong delta, or the Pripets Marshes.

[Fishbed]

Ok then, you're the boss [8D]

By the way Im not the kind who will not buy the game because the river was on the wrong side of the hex.[:D]
Considering there are not that many people here who would ever care about Nanchang, no-one will be mad at you if you put that on some low priority stuff [;)]

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Fishbed

I am an old man brought up to believe Peking was the capital of China. Even in my frail dotage, I have come to accept that perhaps its Beijing not Peking. But Peiping....please enough. I never had a bad grasp of geography but if this continues I won`t have a clue who I am or where I live.

In all seriousness - this could open up a whole can of worms - Volgograd?, Stalingrad?, Tsaritsyn? etc. Can I ask that we give serious consideration before such name changes are considered?

Well it shouldn't be a can of worms - actually, it is Peiking which is contrasting with everything else, not the opposite.

Stalingrad is named Stalingrad on the map, because it was named Stalingrad back then, even though it is Volgograd today, right? And no-one would call it Tsaritsyn because there's no reason for it.
Leningrad is named Leningrad on the map, because it was named Leningrad back then, even though it is St.Petersburg today, right? And no-one would call it Petrograd because there's no reason for it.

But Peiking (Beijing) is named Peiking (Beijing) on the map, while this used to be its name before 1928, and after 1949, but not between 1928 and 1949, which is exactly the scope of this game, isn't it? And this is for a reason: Peiking (Beijing - which means "the northern capital") was renamed Peiping (Beiping - which means "the northern peace") in 1928 because Nanking (Nanjing -which means the "southern capital") became the KMT's official capital city. Peiking losing its official status, they decided it had to lose its name too, and that name didn't come back before the Communist take over in 1949, which reverted to Peiking (Beijing) as a capital city.
Actually, my grand-father, who is a retired KMT general in Taiwan, still calls that place Peiping (Beiping)...!

Technically, I guess Allied maps between 1941 and 1945 probably mentioned Peiping as the official given name of that place.

I have just checked and all World War II books I have and that cover the conflict in China have the name Peking - every one. I am guessing most people playing this game will know Peking and/or Beijing but will never have heard (rightly or wrongly) of Peiping.

If the will of the majority is to have that name on the map then clearly so be it as I cannot argue against what is factualy correct - and genuinely thanks for enlightening me on China and her capital. My preference would be for Peking though....

[Fishbed]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I have just checked and all World War II books I have and that cover the conflict in China have the name Peking - every one. I am guessing most people playing this game will know Peking and/or Beijing but will never have heard (rightly or wrongly) of Peiping.

Well mine are not - mostly because they focus on China actually (especially James Hsiung and Steven Levine's China's bitter victory). Academic books about WW2 with a larger scope tend to name the place Peiking/Beijing as there are not supposed to specifically focus on the Sino-Japanese conflict. It is actually the same with WiF: it's a world war wargame, not a Chinese War simulation, so I understand your point very well...
Still even though it is better for gameplay purpose, it remains a factual inaccuracy. If we can live with that there's no problem then. [8D]

If the will of the majority is to have that name on the map then clearly so be it as I cannot argue against what is factualy correct - and genuinely thanks for enlightening me on China and her capital.

You're welcome, my pleasure [:)]

[wosung]

Peking/Peiping: For the background, Fishbed absolutely is right. This is a deeply political issue between contending factions. But for MWIF both names work (see my post 396)

“Peiping” represents the retrospective and contemporary acknowledgment of KMT Nanking Government as Chinese Governement. Peking was renamed in 1929, after it was occupied by KMT National Revolutionary Army. Nanking has been made KMT capital in 1927, after Canton and Wuhan. Until then the Western powers reckognized the Chinese political faction which controlled Peking as Government of the Republic China (and granted finacial aid to it). KMT Nanking goverment practically was international reckognized, but in a subtle affront towards the antiimperialist Nanking Governement the foreign powers didn’t move their embassies to Nanking. After the Japanese took and raped Nanking in 1937 the KMT rhetoric of Peiping/Nanking obviously even symbolically didn’t made much sense any more.


  The Japanese puppet regimes used “Peiping” for their main capital once again became Nanking. The Japanese just wanted Wang Jingwei to substitute Chiang Kaisheks Regime as republic of China. Thus they hijacked, or shall we say Shanghaied, the former use of names. The Japanese themselves pronounced Peiping the Japanese way: probably Hokuhei.  

Not sure about Yennan Communist.


Yellow River: As I’ve written before (Posts 554, 560), Chinese wartime maps depict swaps in the flooded area south of Kaifeng. So 1-2 swamp hexes there or S of Chengchow could be warranted. According to one of my sources (P554) there was some military impact of this for the rest of the war. But the flooded area didn’t stop all fighting. I’ve no data about, say, fording problems of divisional formations in the flooded area from 1939 to 1945. Concerning the request of “pretty compelling evidence” (of swamps, etc.): Until now, it seems, all of us have collected more data and sources about Yellow River than on any other river on the map.
  Regards

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: wosung

Peking/Peiping: For the background, Fishbed absolutely is right. This is a deeply political issue between contending factions. But for MWIF both names work (see my post 396)

“Peiping” represents the retrospective and contemporary acknowledgment of KMT Nanking Government as Chinese Governement. Peking was renamed in 1929, after it was occupied by KMT National Revolutionary Army. Nanking has been made KMT capital in 1927, after Canton and Wuhan. Until then the Western powers reckognized the Chinese political faction which controlled Peking as Government of the Republic China (and granted finacial aid to it). KMT Nanking goverment practically was international reckognized, but in a subtle affront towards the antiimperialist Nanking Governement the foreign powers didn’t move their embassies to Nanking. After the Japanese took and raped Nanking in 1937 the KMT rhetoric of Peiping/Nanking obviously even symbolically didn’t made much sense any more.


  The Japanese puppet regimes used “Peiping” for their main capital once again became Nanking. The Japanese just wanted Wang Jingwei to substitute Chiang Kaisheks Regime as republic of China. Thus they hijacked, or shall we say Shanghaied, the former use of names. The Japanese themselves pronounced Peiping the Japanese way: probably Hokuhei.  

Not sure about Yennan Communist.


Yellow River: As I’ve written before (Posts 554, 560), Chinese wartime maps depict swaps in the flooded area south of Kaifeng. So 1-2 swamp hexes there or S of Chengchow could be warranted. According to one of my sources (P554) there was some military impact of this for the rest of the war. But the flooded area didn’t stop all fighting. I’ve no data about, say, fording problems of divisional formations in the flooded area from 1939 to 1945. Concerning the request of “pretty compelling evidence” (of swamps, etc.): Until now, it seems, all of us have collected more data and sources about Yellow River than on any other river on the map.
  Regards

I like using Peiping since, based on my reading of the posts here, that was the generally accepted name. However, if using that name is politically controversial, we should stay with Peking - as in WIF FE.

I greatly appreciate[&o][&o][&o] the effort spent on understanding what happened when the Yellow River was redirected. I think it well deserves being the most heavily researched river on the map, given: (1) the magnitude of the change, (2) the fact that ADG and other game designers got it wrong, and (3) its dramatic effect on game play. I, for one, find that it makes the frontlines in central China much more understandable.

Based on your post, there are 3 potential hexes that could satisfy the "1 or 2 swamp hexes" you mention: Kaifeng itself, and the two hexes south of it (SE and SW). Which would you recommend?

[marcuswatney]

I'm a little nervous about having swamp on the Japanese side of the river.  The dykes were blown to aid KMT defence, but if the swamps are on the northeast bank they will aid Japan significantly in the late stages of the game.

[Fishbed]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: wosung

Peking/Peiping: For the background, Fishbed absolutely is right. This is a deeply political issue between contending factions. But for MWIF both names work (see my post 396)

“Peiping” represents the retrospective and contemporary acknowledgment of KMT Nanking Government as Chinese Governement. Peking was renamed in 1929, after it was occupied by KMT National Revolutionary Army. Nanking has been made KMT capital in 1927, after Canton and Wuhan. Until then the Western powers reckognized the Chinese political faction which controlled Peking as Government of the Republic China (and granted finacial aid to it). KMT Nanking goverment practically was international reckognized, but in a subtle affront towards the antiimperialist Nanking Governement the foreign powers didn’t move their embassies to Nanking. After the Japanese took and raped Nanking in 1937 the KMT rhetoric of Peiping/Nanking obviously even symbolically didn’t made much sense any more.


The Japanese puppet regimes used “Peiping” for their main capital once again became Nanking. The Japanese just wanted Wang Jingwei to substitute Chiang Kaisheks Regime as republic of China. Thus they hijacked, or shall we say Shanghaied, the former use of names. The Japanese themselves pronounced Peiping the Japanese way: probably Hokuhei.

Not sure about Yennan Communist.


Yellow River: As I’ve written before (Posts 554, 560), Chinese wartime maps depict swaps in the flooded area south of Kaifeng. So 1-2 swamp hexes there or S of Chengchow could be warranted. According to one of my sources (P554) there was some military impact of this for the rest of the war. But the flooded area didn’t stop all fighting. I’ve no data about, say, fording problems of divisional formations in the flooded area from 1939 to 1945. Concerning the request of “pretty compelling evidence” (of swamps, etc.): Until now, it seems, all of us have collected more data and sources about Yellow River than on any other river on the map.
Regards

I like using Peiping since, based on my reading of the posts here, that was the generally accepted name. However, if using that name is politically controversial, we should stay with Peking - as in WIF FE.

Thanks for the informations Wosung

Shannon, about the possible political aspect of the question, I'd like just to underline that Chinese RPC historiography does acknowledge the use of Beiping/Peiping instead of Beijing/Peiking for this period. My very official RPC Chinese history book (Bai Shouyi's An historical outline history of China) does make an extensive and unlimited use of Beiping/Peiping in the narration, even though this was a name chosen by the KMT-controlled Republic - BUT the Communist Party considering itself an heir to the original Republic of China as much as KMT does, they couldn't do otherwise but acknowledge an official name change that happened in June 1928 while the CCP was still part of the republican united front, only a couple months before the bloody scission on August 1928.

Briefly, just be re-assured turning Peiking into Peiping will not hurt any sensitivity - that's commonly accepted Chinese history stuff our RPC readers will not criticize.

[marcuswatney]

I'm a little nervous about having swamp on the Japanese side of the river.  The dykes were blown to aid KMT defence, but if the swamps are on the northeast bank they will aid Japan significantly in the late stages of the game.

[wosung]

That’s right: As heir of Sun Yat-sen’s Republic of China, in current PRC nobody has any problem with Peiping. Chiang’s KMT is supposed to be just another (warlord) faction. But I don’t know about the naming policy of Yennan Communists, say in 1940.
Bottom line: Peiping would give a nice historical flavor.

Swamp hex: According to the maps the MWIF hex Kaifeng or the one SW of it could be swamp. Kaifeng and Chengchow are only some 50 km apart (the yellow city dot of Kaifeng could be a little more to the West). In the Battle of Central Honan (4.44-6.44) the Japanese cracked the Huangho/flooded area bow attacking from N to S across the Huangho towards Chengchow and then to the W and to th S along the rail lines. They did not attack from E to W across the flooded area (!)

Source: Maps 1, 28, 39 in Hsu Long-hsue and Chang Ming-kai (Eds) History of the Sino Japanese War (1937-1945) Taipei 1971.

Problem here is: The distances (Kaifeng-Chengchow, Kaifeng-Flooded Area) are some 50 km each. Not sure how to represent this strategic situation on the MWIF map with 3 hexes to choose from (Kaifeng, Chengchow, Hex S).

Better to choose a swamp hex than a lake hexe because of the rail line.

I’m unable to post the scanned maps due to kb size problems of the forum. If anybody is interested, I can mail these scans. This stuff isn’t suppose to be “secret knowledge”.
Regards

[marcuswatney]

One of the reasons I felt we should consider lake hexsides is that the primary effect of the flooded area on play should be to screw up supply-lines, but (correct me if I am wrong) I don't think MWiF swamps have any detrimental effect on supply.

The solution I adopted to the problem of these swamps in my (unpublished) 1982 Pacific Third Reich game [yes, I was mulling over the same problem 26 years ago!] was to delete the river in the swamp hex itself.  My map had the river flowing into an apex of the swamp hex and then flowing out of the far apex.  This gave a very effective depiction of a landscape flooded by a flowing river.

You may like to consider a similar solution here: shift the Kaifeng dot west, create swamp at Kaifeng and the hex SW of it, have the river end at the NW apex of the Kaifeng hex and restart at the SE apex of the second swamp.

This avoids creating Chengingrad, but unfortunately still does not make supply more difficult.  To do that, I would recommend breaking the Chengchow-Wuhan rail-line at the swamp, as shown in Post 47.  The difficulty of keeping Wuhan supplied is something that should tax the Japanese player as it did his historical counterpart (wasn't that the reason for the attacks on Nanchang?)

[marcuswatney]

Wosung, Post 555 appears to show a break in the rail-line south of Chengchow, west of 'Yellow River Flooded Area' ... or is this just sloppy cartography?

[wosung]

Yes, I also thought about a Yellow River interrupted by a swamp hex. But then again, this might make the Yellow River situation on the map too freaky.

I've no specific data about the rail lines and the supply situation around Kaifeng in WW2. Generally the supply situation in wartime China for all sides was even more miserable than in Russia. Poorliest fed and supplied Chinese draftees from the lowest stratum of society were pitted against WW1 equipped more and more demodernized and brutally led Japanese troops. Most traffic was by river boats and coolies. The railways, esp. on the Chinese side, were not very effective, due to air attacks and partisans, natural disasters and lack of spare parts. China then wasn't an industrialized country.

There's another aspect: Light armed infantry based armies like the Chinese and the Japanese had far less supply demands than, say heavy mechanized US troops. Plus even what is regarded as sufficient supply is not only a product of national industrial capacity but also of national culture and regard of the individual.

Regards

[wosung]

I think it's just sloopy cartography.

I mailed the map scans to Patrice. Maybe he sees a way to post them more clearly at the forum.

Regards

[marcuswatney]

The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that the best way to depict the flooded area from the point of view of game-play is to use lake hexsides.
 
The problem with creating MWiF swamps is that they make the terrain more desirable, not less.  What the histories tell us is that the flooded area channelled attacks to the north and south of it: the inundation was effectively impassable to both sides when it came to combat operations.  That is best depicted by lake hexsides (with of course an explanation of 'Flooded Area').
 
Lake Chaoyang on my 1936/42 maps doesn't exist as a lake at all, but rather as a swamp between two rivers.  That seems a reasonable way to depict the Yellow River flooded zone.
 
I would suggest at least three, perhaps four, lake hexsides starting with the hexside SW Kaifeng and heading downstream.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that the best way to depict the flooded area from the point of view of game-play is to use lake hexsides.

The problem with creating MWiF swamps is that they make the terrain more desirable, not less.  What the histories tell us is that the flooded area channelled attacks to the north and south of it: the inundation was effectively impassable to both sides when it came to combat operations.  That is best depicted by lake hexsides (with of course an explanation of 'Flooded Area').

Lake Chaoyang on my 1936/42 maps doesn't exist as a lake at all, but rather as a swamp between two rivers.  That seems a reasonable way to depict the Yellow River flooded zone.

I would suggest at least three, perhaps four, lake hexsides starting with the hexside SW Kaifeng and heading downstream.

I must say that I'm agreeing with what you wrote here, and think that if the flood area must be represented on the map, this is the best way to go.