Eindhoven historical - Insane amount of points for the Germans?

[guyhill]

I just finished the Eindhoven historical scenario. I thought I'd done really well, considering I had all objectives in my possession for almost the entire duration of the scenario. Unfortunately, the game called it a draw, and inspection of the German side of things shows that they get an insane amount of points for holding on to objectives, e.g., 112.5 for Son and Eindhoven. Is this intentional? And is there some way I could have known before the scenario started that this would be the case? (without starting the scenario from the German side, that is -> I don't want to know their initial deployment).

[Sarge]

Basically the Germans cut your forces off, if they held the Son and Eindhoven , in a strategic point of view your forces would have ether made a 180 counter attack or rely on air drops.

Ether way your troops where about a week from surrender if a counter attack did not play out successful .

A draw is being generous [;)]

[RayWolfe]

Not an insane number of points at all!
The whole point was to get to Arnhem as quickly as possible. If you can't get through the choke points, you can't get to Arnhen.
I think you may need to study the real battle a bit more in order to understand what was being attempted.
That in itself is a facinating study in hubris.
Cheers
Ray

[sterckxe]

ORIGINAL: guyhill
And is there some way I could have known before the scenario started that this would be the case? (without starting the scenario from the German side, that is -> I don't want to know their initial deployment).

It should be in the player scenario briefing. I don't know the details of this particular scenario (will check tonight) but I've noticed a couple of times before that sometimes some knowledge of the "big picture" is required in order for a gamer to guess what the other side's objectives are. Such a "gotcha" happened to me recently in a game of Conquest of the Aegean, where the briefing did tell me what I needed to do, but I decided to get my 100 points some other way only to find out I only got a draw because in the strategic picture I had failed.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

[guyhill]

ORIGINAL: Sarge

Basically the Germans cut your forces off, if they held the Son and Eindhoven , in a strategic point of view your forces would have ether made a 180 counter attack or rely on air drops.

Ether way your troops where about a week from surrender if a counter attack did not play out successful .

A draw is being generous [;)]

I understand that if I do not have Son or Eindhoven in my possession during the entire scenario I would have a problem. My point is that apart from those south of Son I conquered ALL victory points on day 1, and I captured the remaining ones (Eindhoven, Philips factory, Woensel) at the start of D2 with the Durhams and 15/19 Hussars (remember that historically, Guards Armoured div would also be available to capture Eindhoven -> I think that I would be able to end with GA in Eindhoven in Breakout from Joe's Bridge without 506PIR). I lost various points for short amounts of time (e.g., one German unit succeeded in infiltrating Veghel) but they were defeated in short order. Son bridge was the only one that got blown up. I DID conquer both Best bridges intact, something that historically did not happen, and when the Grenadiers and Coldstreamers appeared I felt I did not really need them. That simply does not feel like a draw to me.

Besides, the Germans can block the road without conquering any VPs (e.g., between Koevering and Veghel). This is neutral wrt the game, but would be disastrous in the real campaign.

[guyhill]

ORIGINAL: RayWolfe

Not an insane number of points at all!
The whole point was to get to Arnhem as quickly as possible. If you can't get through the choke points, you can't get to Arnhen.
I think you may need to study the real battle a bit more in order to understand what was being attempted.
That in itself is a facinating study in hubris.
Cheers
Ray

In all fairness I think I know a bit about Market Garden. But I am open to suggestions for more Market Garden books. I own

* A bridgde too far - Ryan
* The race for the Rhine Bridges - McKee
* Hell's Highway / Nijmegen / The Island - Saunders, Battleground Europe Series
* Arnhem - Middlebrook
* Arnhem, a tragedy of Errors - Harclerode
* Arnhem 1944, in Into the Reich - Osprey Publishing
* Arnhem - R.E. Urquhart

I have read - but do not own -

* The story of the Guards Armoured Division, (1941-1945) - the Earl of Rosse and E.R. Hill

and I am still looking for (but to be honest, I am too lazy to check Amazon)

* It never snows in September - Kershaw

Market Garden has always been special to me, since it is the biggest military operation ever (I think) in my country.

Reading back my earlier comment I can understand that others have thought I was criticising the game. That was never my intention. But I was frustrated with the Draw, saw that it was due to the huge numbers of points that the Germans could get for controlling some VPs, and wondered whether this could be due to a bug. I'll just have to try again and do better next time.

BUT, I really don't feel comfortable with the Germans being able to block the road in some stretches (e.g., between koevering and Veghel and between Veghel and Hulstheuvel Highway Bridge) without the allied player being punished for this. I think a much more interesting 101 Airborne Market Garden scenario would be one where you only get points for moving stuff (Guards Armoured division, supply convoys, eventually 43 Div) from Eindhoven to Uden and beyond. But since exit victory points do not exist in the game, such a scenario is impossible to create.

[sterckxe]

ORIGINAL: guyhill
But since exit victory points do not exist in the game, such a scenario is impossible to create.

Good point - and one which was adressed in Conquest of the Aegean - exit victory points are sorely missed in some HTTR scenarios.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

[Arjuna]

guyhill,
 
Thanks for your feedback.
 
If I understand you correctly your major point is that you don't know exactly what the enemy objectives are and hence how best to guarrantee a victory - ie by achieving your own and denying the enemy his objectives. Now that's a fair request by any gamer. However, in real life , while you may have a guess as to what the enemy's objectives are you never really know for sure. We try and cover this in the scenario briefings by giving an overall indication.
 
On our wish list is an overhaul of the intel system to make it more thorough and realistic. As part of this we would like to provide assessments of enemy intentions and likely courses of action. This, however, will place an even greater processor load on the game and is one of the reasons why we have not incorporated this feature yet. Perhaps, when we do this we can provide estimates of enemy objectives. I would be loathe to provide the absolute ones as this would detract from the realism.

[guyhill]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

guyhill,

Thanks for your feedback.

If I understand you correctly your major point is that you don't know exactly what the enemy objectives are and hence how best to guarrantee a victory - ie by achieving your own and denying the enemy his objectives. Now that's a fair request by any gamer. However, in real life , while you may have a guess as to what the enemy's objectives are you never really know for sure. We try and cover this in the scenario briefings by giving an overall indication.

thanks for your answer. Yes, my major point is that I was not aware that I had to move very, very fast, not just fast, as it is possible for the Germans to obtain 100 points in a very short amount of time. I understand that I should take Eindhoven at some point; however, I think it's a realistic strategy to take Eindhoven using XXX Corps forces in stead of 101 Airborne. In view of the amount of points to be had I don't know if this would work in the game.

On our wish list is an overhaul of the intel system to make it more thorough and realistic. As part of this we would like to provide assessments of enemy intentions and likely courses of action. This, however, will place an even greater processor load on the game and is one of the reasons why we have not incorporated this feature yet. Perhaps, when we do this we can provide estimates of enemy objectives. I would be loathe to provide the absolute ones as this would detract from the realism.

I do not really want to know the enemy's objectives either. But I'd appreciate to know if the Germans gain significantly more points per victory point than the Allies.