Modifications to MWiF China Map portion

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: wosung
This is the Schenke map for 1938. (The flooded area is in the centre of the picture).

Wosung, is it possible to have this map sent to me as the others were ?
Thanks for that if you can !

[warspite1]

Can anyone answer a few general questions on the maps please? Apologies if these have been covered previously - I am relatively new to this forum.
 
Is the idea to have a complete map of the world or will the map be broken into sections like the board game?  Either way I guess the map(s) will be erm..big.  How easy will it be to flick from say the pacific to Europe and all the sea zones in between? 
How will the Commonwealth player know he has a complete chain of convoys?  Will there be a system to advise if say the route from Oz to UK is incomplete or will he/she just automatically receive a surprisingly low number of resource points next turn?
 
How close are we to getting finalised maps?  What if any parts of the world have been "signed off" as being finalised?
 
Thanks

[wosung]

[/quote]

Frankly, I think that either 1, 2 or 3 hexsides of lake on this flooded area will make absolutely no difference to the war in China in MWiF.
I think that because the war in China in MWiF is fought along the railways that allow to advance toward the heart of China (Chungking, Lanchow), and I believe that the Chinese that will try to defend at Chenchow will find himself quickly outflanked from the north, surrounded and destroyed. He will loose 2 corps in the first turn of the game, and this will open the road for Japan to conquer Sian easily, and maybe more. So I think that no Chinese in his right mind will defend here. The place is still undefendable, with or without the lake hexsides.
I am for adding them, just for the historical accuracy.

Well historically there were two motives for KMT's National Revolutionary Army to defend Chengchow and the North:

1. To secure on of the few lines of communication to the outside world: The narrow Inner Asia link to it's Russian supporter.

2. To guard the CCP.

Regards

[Froonp]

As far as I know :

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Can anyone answer a few general questions on the maps please? Apologies if these have been covered previously - I am relatively new to this forum.

Is the idea to have a complete map of the world or will the map be broken into sections like the board game?  Either way I guess the map(s) will be erm..big.  How easy will it be to flick from say the pacific to Europe and all the sea zones in between? 

1 clic.
Or a few mouse wheel rolling.
Very easy.

How will the Commonwealth player know he has a complete chain of convoys?  Will there be a system to advise if say the route from Oz to UK is incomplete or will he/she just automatically receive a surprisingly low number of resource points next turn?

How does he know in the paper game ?
He can know the same here, except that the game shows him the global map, and the number of convoys in each sea area, so he don't have to count.
Also, the player can at any moment enter the production dialog that shows him his future production. The result of the shipping of resources is seen here.

How close are we to getting finalised maps?  What if any parts of the world have been "signed off" as being finalised?

As far as I know, the map are finalised completely.
All parts of the world have been "signed off" as being finalised.
But, I think Steve is still open to corrections that may be blatantly wrong (they have to be real wrong and embarrasing for him to change the rivers and coastlines that need lot of work to change), and I think that minor changes such as the positions of resources, cities, ports, labels, rails, alpine hexsides can still be looked at and done as they need 0 work from him (all from me).
But if no problems are found and no suggestion made, the map is finished.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

As far as I know :

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Can anyone answer a few general questions on the maps please? Apologies if these have been covered previously - I am relatively new to this forum.

Is the idea to have a complete map of the world or will the map be broken into sections like the board game?  Either way I guess the map(s) will be erm..big.  How easy will it be to flick from say the pacific to Europe and all the sea zones in between? 

1 clic.
Or a few mouse wheel rolling.
Very easy.

How will the Commonwealth player know he has a complete chain of convoys?  Will there be a system to advise if say the route from Oz to UK is incomplete or will he/she just automatically receive a surprisingly low number of resource points next turn?

How does he know in the paper game ?
He can know the same here, except that the game shows him the global map, and the number of convoys in each sea area, so he don't have to count.
Also, the player can at any moment enter the production dialog that shows him his future production. The result of the shipping of resources is seen here.

How close are we to getting finalised maps?  What if any parts of the world have been "signed off" as being finalised?

As far as I know, the map are finalised completely.
All parts of the world have been "signed off" as being finalised.
But, I think Steve is still open to corrections that may be blatantly wrong (they have to be real wrong and embarrasing for him to change the rivers and coastlines that need lot of work to change), and I think that minor changes such as the positions of resources, cities, ports, labels, rails, alpine hexsides can still be looked at and done as they need 0 work from him (all from me).
But if no problems are found and no suggestion made, the map is finished.

Yes.

[warspite1]

Thanks Froonp - so to be clear, the Production Dialog will automatically calculate each turn how many points each power has available on the next turn and if during one or more subsequent impulses, resources/factories/convoys are lost, the computer will immediately update the points available?.   
 
You are right in the paper game it is of course a case of physical checking too.  I was just wondering how much of a pain it would be - for the Commonwealth player in particular - to have to scroll through many of the sea zones around the world every turn on such a large map.  Because presumably once you zoom out to any great extent the units disappear from view and so you would need to check sea zone by sea zone?  However if the movement around the maps is easy enough then I guess no problem.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Here are three maps that were scanned by Wosung.

This shows a large area of central China circa 1938, after the flooding. Across the middle, from left to right, it shows: Tungkwan, Chengchow, and Kaifeng. In the lower right corner is Nanking.

All of these cities are on the MWIF map.

The Yellow River (Hoang-ho) is shown running north from Kaifeng.

As a series of horizontal slashes, the flooded area is shown starting to the west of Kaifeng and running southeast until it links up with another river (Wai-ho). One the Japanese lines of attack is shown to go from Nanking in the SE up towards Kaifeng, keeping to the east of the flooded area.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

This map is a much closer-in depiction of the area to the west of Kaifeng, which is in the upper right corner.

The flooded area is clearly to the west and south of Kaifeng. Note that this map indicates that there is still at least part of the Yellow River flowing north, above Kaifeng.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

3rd and last in the series of maps provided by Wosung.

This one is circa 1944 and is focused on the area north of Kaifeng, which is in the bottom center. You can see the flooded area, which looks like a lake here, exiting off the bottom center of the map. The scale of this map is roughly comparable to the first one in this series of 3.

The northward flow of the Yellow River is a broken/dashed river line running from north of Kaifeng to the upper right edge of the map.

[Fishbed]

ORIGINAL: Fishbed

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: wosung

Peking/Peiping: For the background, Fishbed absolutely is right. This is a deeply political issue between contending factions. But for MWIF both names work (see my post 396)

“Peiping” represents the retrospective and contemporary acknowledgment of KMT Nanking Government as Chinese Governement. Peking was renamed in 1929, after it was occupied by KMT National Revolutionary Army. Nanking has been made KMT capital in 1927, after Canton and Wuhan. Until then the Western powers reckognized the Chinese political faction which controlled Peking as Government of the Republic China (and granted finacial aid to it). KMT Nanking goverment practically was international reckognized, but in a subtle affront towards the antiimperialist Nanking Governement the foreign powers didn’t move their embassies to Nanking. After the Japanese took and raped Nanking in 1937 the KMT rhetoric of Peiping/Nanking obviously even symbolically didn’t made much sense any more.


The Japanese puppet regimes used “Peiping” for their main capital once again became Nanking. The Japanese just wanted Wang Jingwei to substitute Chiang Kaisheks Regime as republic of China. Thus they hijacked, or shall we say Shanghaied, the former use of names. The Japanese themselves pronounced Peiping the Japanese way: probably Hokuhei.

Not sure about Yennan Communist.


Yellow River: As I’ve written before (Posts 554, 560), Chinese wartime maps depict swaps in the flooded area south of Kaifeng. So 1-2 swamp hexes there or S of Chengchow could be warranted. According to one of my sources (P554) there was some military impact of this for the rest of the war. But the flooded area didn’t stop all fighting. I’ve no data about, say, fording problems of divisional formations in the flooded area from 1939 to 1945. Concerning the request of “pretty compelling evidence” (of swamps, etc.): Until now, it seems, all of us have collected more data and sources about Yellow River than on any other river on the map.
Regards

I like using Peiping since, based on my reading of the posts here, that was the generally accepted name. However, if using that name is politically controversial, we should stay with Peking - as in WIF FE.

Thanks for the informations Wosung

Shannon, about the possible political aspect of the question, I'd like just to underline that Chinese RPC historiography does acknowledge the use of Beiping/Peiping instead of Beijing/Peiking for this period. My very official RPC Chinese history book (Bai Shouyi's An historical outline history of China) does make an extensive and unlimited use of Beiping/Peiping in the narration, even though this was a name chosen by the KMT-controlled Republic - BUT the Communist Party considering itself an heir to the original Republic of China as much as KMT does, they couldn't do otherwise but acknowledge an official name change that happened in June 1928 while the CCP was still part of the republican united front, only a couple months before the bloody scission on August 1928.

Briefly, just be re-assured turning Peiking into Peiping will not hurt any sensitivity - that's commonly accepted Chinese history stuff our RPC readers will not criticize.

Hum please don't pay attention to my conclusions, just realized Beijing was renamed in 1928, and not 1927, which invalidates partly my stuff here (as Nanchang uprising happened in August 1927...). I'd better stop write rubbish so late in the night.

But this doesn't change anything about the common acceptance of the term Peiping on the Communist side still, at least. ^^

[Zorachus99]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

3rd and last in the series of maps provided by Wosung.

This one is circa 1944 and is focused on the area north of Kaifeng, which is in the bottom center. You can see the flooded area, which looks like a lake here, exiting off the bottom center of the map. The scale of this map is roughly comparable to the first one in this series of 3.

The northward flow of the Yellow River is a broken/dashed river line running from north of Kaifeng to the upper right edge of the map.

This is a VERY interesting map considering both sides know how to play the game GO. GO is quite interesting, and permutations are far far beyond that of chess.

Thanks for the maps! They look great!

[Froonp]

So ?

2 or 3 flooded hexsides ?

If I base a decision on the fact that I generaly prefer the map modifications stay minimalistic, I'd say 2.
If I base a decision on the fact that I think that either 2 or 3 is as useless in terms of hampering the Japanese, I'd say 2 too.

So ?

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

So ?

2 or 3 flooded hexsides ?

If I base a decision on the fact that I generaly prefer the map modifications stay minimalistic, I'd say 2.
If I base a decision on the fact that I think that either 2 or 3 is as useless in terms of hampering the Japanese, I'd say 2 too.

So ?

Well, here is a screen shot of a map you sent me back in June of 2006. It shows the Yellow River running on a different path to the sea, not linking up with Hai Ho. I think we need to change the proposed hexesides that the river follows to the sea.

From the second of the 3 maps that Wosung sent me, it appears that the flooded area was mostly on the north-south axis and once the river turned eastwards it became 'normal' size in width. I would propose that the hexside between Kaifeng and Chengchow be a river hexside and the next 2 hexsides be lake hexsides. The remaining hexsides for the river flowing into the sea would be river hexsides.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Well, here is a screen shot of a map you sent me back in June of 2006. It shows the Yellow River running on a different path to the sea, not linking up with Hai Ho. I think we need to change the proposed hexesides that the river follows to the sea.

From the second of the 3 maps that Wosung sent me, it appears that the flooded area was mostly on the north-south axis and once the river turned eastwards it became 'normal' size in width. I would propose that the hexside between Kaifeng and Chengchow be a river hexside and the next 2 hexsides be lake hexsides. The remaining hexsides for the river flowing into the sea would be river hexsides.

Steve, on that map the Huai river is not represented, so you can't say that the Yellow River don't link with it.
Moreover, this map shows that the southern Yellow River course goes midway between Nanking and Suchow, which is precisely where the Huai is. So I think that this map shows the Yellow linking with the Huai, simply the Huai name is not written.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Well, here is a screen shot of a map you sent me back in June of 2006. It shows the Yellow River running on a different path to the sea, not linking up with Hai Ho. I think we need to change the proposed hexesides that the river follows to the sea.

From the second of the 3 maps that Wosung sent me, it appears that the flooded area was mostly on the north-south axis and once the river turned eastwards it became 'normal' size in width. I would propose that the hexside between Kaifeng and Chengchow be a river hexside and the next 2 hexsides be lake hexsides. The remaining hexsides for the river flowing into the sea would be river hexsides.

Steve, on that map the Huai river is not represented, so you can't say that the Yellow River don't link with it.
Moreover, this map shows that the southern Yellow River course goes midway between Nanking and Suchow, which is precisely where the Huai is. So I think that this map shows the Yellow linking with the Huai, simply the Huai name is not written.

That's good news. I hate to have more changes.

Then my comment still applies, of the 8 new 'wet' hexsides, only the 2nd and 3rd should be lake hexsides.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Well, here is a screen shot of a map you sent me back in June of 2006. It shows the Yellow River running on a different path to the sea, not linking up with Hai Ho. I think we need to change the proposed hexesides that the river follows to the sea.

From the second of the 3 maps that Wosung sent me, it appears that the flooded area was mostly on the north-south axis and once the river turned eastwards it became 'normal' size in width. I would propose that the hexside between Kaifeng and Chengchow be a river hexside and the next 2 hexsides be lake hexsides. The remaining hexsides for the river flowing into the sea would be river hexsides.

Steve, on that map the Huai river is not represented, so you can't say that the Yellow River don't link with it.
Moreover, this map shows that the southern Yellow River course goes midway between Nanking and Suchow, which is precisely where the Huai is. So I think that this map shows the Yellow linking with the Huai, simply the Huai name is not written.

That's good news. I hate to have more changes.

Then my comment still applies, of the 8 new 'wet' hexsides, only the 2nd and 3rd should be lake hexsides.

Patrice has sent me graphics for this and I'll try to make those changes today. Once done, I'll post them.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Patrice has sent me graphics for this and I'll try to make those changes today. Once done, I'll post them.

And while I loved to edit the rivers & lakes drawings of Rob (which I found so easy that I regret of not having done all the rivers graphics myself), I hope there won't be more of this kind because the whole discussion / decision / coding process takes time that we don't want to loose.

This was worth it anyway, as we will be able to be proud of having done China right, and I think we can all thank you for the initial comment Marcus.

[marcuswatney]

Glad to be of service.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Here is the result. A couple more names can be added: for the old river course and the lake SE of Lake Hungtse.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Here is the result. A couple more names can be added: for the old river course and the lake SE of Lake Hungtse.

Yes, I lacked time these last days for the actual additions, but I have a list of names to add and some names to modify on the map, that I'll do today.