MWiF Map Review - India & Burma

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Patrice's screen shot.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: brian brian

From old readings about Burma I recall the phrase 'the refineries at Arrakkan' or some similar spelling. It got to me thinking that perhaps in the late 30s a lot of fuel was refined quite near where it was extracted and then fuel was shipped from there, rather than shipping oil to a distant refinery as is the case today?

Arrakkan is not found at Wikipedia. so you have another spelling ?

I think it may be spelled Arakan. If you look at the current map you see Arakan range written on the map in western Burma.

[Mziln]

I don't think the Refineries were in Arakan.


Myanmar (formerly Burma) The country is divided into seven states and seven divisions.

Rakhine State (formerly Arakan)

Yangon Division the city of Thanlyin (formerly Syriam)



The New York Times - May 13, 1943, Thursday

BIG U.S. BOMBERS HIT OIL PLANT IN BURMA; Americans Drop 30 Tons of High Explosives on Syriam Refinery

NEW DELHI, India, May 12 (AP) -- American heavy bombers dropped thirty tons of bombs yesterday on an oil factory at Syriam, southeast of Rangoon, in an intensification of the Allied campaign to deprive the Japanese of Burma's natural resources.

[marcuswatney]

Imphal corridor:  I propose the following.

1.  Extend Naga Hills impassable hexsides one hexside to the southwest;
2.  Create plain terrain Imphal;
3.  Remove impassable hexside NW Kohima;
3.  Create new impassable hexsides: NW Imphal, W Imphal, SE Kohima;
4. Create a road Imphal-Kohima-1NW (rail-line).

It should be possible for a Japanese unit to reach Kohima from the east as 31 Div did, but it must then be out of supply, so it may be necessary to make the hex east of Kohima more difficult (mountain rather than jungle?)

Imphal must be made an attractive objective for both sides, so consider making it a city?  At any rate, it needs to be able to base a good many aircraft, and be able to be supplied from the air.

There is a good (if understandably partisan) description of Imphal-Kohima at http://www.burmastar.org.uk/imphal1.htm

In general: the terrain around the Indian-Burmese border should be tough enough that a Japanese unit cannot simply sit on the rail-line to Ledo and survive, except by tracing supply via Imphal.  There should be only two viable suppliable routes into India (excluding the Ledo Road): via Imphal-Kohima and along the coast.

Question: is there presently a viable invasion route along the coast?

[composer99]

Any hex in India that has a complete coastal hex side is invadable. Some (clear hexes with no cities) are easier to invade than others.
 
The Japanese have no problem landing in India and dominating the coast, with their carrier fleets and supporting shore bombardment. It's pressing inland that poses difficulties.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

Imphal corridor:  I propose the following.

1.  Extend Naga Hills impassable hexsides one hexside to the southwest;
2.  Create plain terrain Imphal;
3.  Remove impassable hexside NW Kohima;
3.  Create new impassable hexsides: NW Imphal, W Imphal, SE Kohima;
4. Create a road Imphal-Kohima-1NW (rail-line).

Well, there are things that can't be done in what you're asking for, in that the impassable hexes (Alpine hexside) can only exist between 2 mountain hexes.

It should be possible for a Japanese unit to reach Kohima from the east as 31 Div did, but it must then be out of supply, so it may be necessary to make the hex east of Kohima more difficult (mountain rather than jungle?)

Supply depends on where the Japanese put their HQ. Maybe their HQ was in one place during WWII, and if the player put it in another place then the situation will be different.
I think that we should not design the area so that the historical facts happen again, we should designate the area as it is. The events as they occured during WWII depended on a whole lot of factors. The position of the Japanese HQ is one for example. But the position of the allied HQ is another. An HQ (or an ENG) in a mountain hex allow for 1 Air Unit to stack here, and 1 Air Unit represents a whole lot of planes in WiF FE.

What I'd prefer is design the area as you described initialy. You said, there are only 3 passages into India : The shore, Imphal & Kohima, and Ledo at the extremity of the rail in India.
What I can do for example is put an Alpine (impassable) hexside where "Chin" is written and maybe one SE of Kohima, which would retrain the places the Japanese can enter India from Burma.

Imphal must be made an attractive objective for both sides, so consider making it a city?  At any rate, it needs to be able to base a good many aircraft, and be able to be supplied from the air.

Basing an ENG or an HQ here allow to base 1 air unit, no need to put a clear hex, nor a city.

There is a good (if understandably partisan) description of Imphal-Kohima at http://www.burmastar.org.uk/imphal1.htm

In general: the terrain around the Indian-Burmese border should be tough enough that a Japanese unit cannot simply sit on the rail-line to Ledo and survive, except by tracing supply via Imphal.  There should be only two viable suppliable routes into India (excluding the Ledo Road): via Imphal-Kohima and along the coast.

As I said previously, this all depends on the Japanese HQ commitment in Burma. If they put only 1 HQ, it will be nearly out of supply when reaching Imphal & Kohima in fine weather, but if the Japanese commit 2 HQ, they can be in supply as far as the Indian railway.

Question: is there presently a viable invasion route along the coast?

Yes, there is. All shorelines can be invaded by sea at the Burmese border.
By land, there is a 3 hexside wide way into India (See Post #41).

[marcuswatney]

Imphal corridor: Of all the suggestions I have made, I think the most important is to shift the alpine hexside from NW Kohima to NW Imphal: there's no way the critical rail junction could have been attacked direct from Imphal or Kohima ... and on the other hand, the all-weather road did go northwest from Kohima.
 
My map also shows that the west bank of the Chindwin is mountains all the way, so why is E Kohima merely jungle?  If this were changed to mountains then the Naga Hills alpine hexsides could be extended SW.
 
I support your proposal to add an alpine hexside to the Chin, but we then have to watch out for a Singapore Effect at Imphal (geographically, Singapore ought to be attackable across only a single hexside, but it is necessary to provide two so that the Japanese can muster a decent enough ground attack force to take it).  If Imphal were a plain, then it would be reasonable to have it attackable across only one hexside, but if it is to stay mountains I think it needs to be attackable from two.
 
If you move the E Imphal alpine hexside to SE Kohima hexside, then Imphal is attackable across two hexsides and Kohima across one (after the Naga alpine extension) which is an accurate reflection of the distribution of tracks and roads in that district.
 
If you were minded to create a road across just the two hexsides Imphal-Kohima and Kohima-NW, that would give Imphal its correct importance (to both sides) as a supplyhead.  After all, it was a major battle that broke the back of the Japanese defence of Burma and eased the reconquest, so it is worth getting the terrain right.
 
I am at a disadvantage because I do not have my WiF set here, and cannot find the specifics of terrain effects on combat, movement and supply in the RAW.  Do you know where they are published on-line?

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

Imphal corridor: Of all the suggestions I have made, I think the most important is to shift the alpine hexside from NW Kohima to NW Imphal: there's no way the critical rail junction could have been attacked direct from Imphal or Kohima ... and on the other hand, the all-weather road did go northwest from Kohima.

My map also shows that the west bank of the Chindwin is mountains all the way, so why is E Kohima merely jungle?  If this were changed to mountains then the Naga Hills alpine hexsides could be extended SW.

I support your proposal to add an alpine hexside to the Chin, but we then have to watch out for a Singapore Effect at Imphal (geographically, Singapore ought to be attackable across only a single hexside, but it is necessary to provide two so that the Japanese can muster a decent enough ground attack force to take it).  If Imphal were a plain, then it would be reasonable to have it attackable across only one hexside, but if it is to stay mountains I think it needs to be attackable from two.

If you move the E Imphal alpine hexside to SE Kohima hexside, then Imphal is attackable across two hexsides and Kohima across one (after the Naga alpine extension) which is an accurate reflection of the distribution of tracks and roads in that district.

If you were minded to create a road across just the two hexsides Imphal-Kohima and Kohima-NW, that would give Imphal its correct importance (to both sides) as a supplyhead.  After all, it was a major battle that broke the back of the Japanese defence of Burma and eased the reconquest, so it is worth getting the terrain right.

I am at a disadvantage because I do not have my WiF set here, and cannot find the specifics of terrain effects on combat, movement and supply in the RAW.  Do you know where they are published on-line?

You can find those tables in the threads:
What kind of manual ..., posts 114 - 117
Tutorial #4, posts 107 - 109.

There are also tutorials on the air and naval units with similar information about them (tutorial #4 is for land units).

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

Imphal corridor: Of all the suggestions I have made, I think the most important is to shift the alpine hexside from NW Kohima to NW Imphal: there's no way the critical rail junction could have been attacked direct from Imphal or Kohima ... and on the other hand, the all-weather road did go northwest from Kohima.

My map also shows that the west bank of the Chindwin is mountains all the way, so why is E Kohima merely jungle?  If this were changed to mountains then the Naga Hills alpine hexsides could be extended SW.

I support your proposal to add an alpine hexside to the Chin, but we then have to watch out for a Singapore Effect at Imphal (geographically, Singapore ought to be attackable across only a single hexside, but it is necessary to provide two so that the Japanese can muster a decent enough ground attack force to take it).  If Imphal were a plain, then it would be reasonable to have it attackable across only one hexside, but if it is to stay mountains I think it needs to be attackable from two.

If you move the E Imphal alpine hexside to SE Kohima hexside, then Imphal is attackable across two hexsides and Kohima across one (after the Naga alpine extension) which is an accurate reflection of the distribution of tracks and roads in that district.

If you were minded to create a road across just the two hexsides Imphal-Kohima and Kohima-NW, that would give Imphal its correct importance (to both sides) as a supplyhead.  After all, it was a major battle that broke the back of the Japanese defence of Burma and eased the reconquest, so it is worth getting the terrain right.

I am at a disadvantage because I do not have my WiF set here, and cannot find the specifics of terrain effects on combat, movement and supply in the RAW.  Do you know where they are published on-line?

I think I will leave it as it is for the moment.
The more I look at it, the more I dont want to touch the area. Remember that a previous design team did the job before I came up reviewing the map. I believe they did their homework, and I saw that on many occurences of the map that I did not decide myself.
I found 3D maps of the area, in the Times Atlas of WWII, and I see that those mountains are not that rugged, that also explains why there is a jungle instead of a moutain in the north. Even about the Chin hills and my proposal to add a new impassable hex, I think it is not warranted when I look at the 3D map. There are ways through the Chin hills.
What I think is that I may have placed Kohima wrongly, and it might be placed on the other side of the alpine hexside.

Also, the more I read about that battle, the more I think that the Japanese went for Imphal in the first place because Slim had gathered there. If Slim had gathered somewhere else, they would have attacked there. As you said, they were mainly trying to disrupt Slim's offensive. They attacked Imphal from the south, the east and the north which the current map allows.

I think you try to go too tactical with this case, we are at a larger scale.
This said, if there are other opinions, they are welcomed.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

As Patrice said immediately above, it is important realize that MWIF uses a large scale map: roughly 90 km per hex east-west and 80 km north-south in Burma.

[marcuswatney]

That's the wrong way round, Steve.  With the original WiF Pacific map there was an excuse to paint with a broad brush.  With the more detailed maps (at least four times more detailed by area) we have a duty to be much more accurate in how the terrain is depicted.  Imphal-Kohima to the British was as important as Bastogne to the Americans.  How would an American feel if in one of my games I had drawn the road-net around Bastogne wrong so that it wasn't necessary to lay siege to the town at all?

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

That's the wrong way round, Steve.  With the original WiF Pacific map there was an excuse to paint with a broad brush.  With the more detailed maps (at least four times more detailed by area) we have a duty to be much more accurate in how the terrain is depicted.  Imphal-Kohima to the British was as important as Bastogne to the Americans.  How would an American feel if in one of my games I had drawn the road-net around Bastogne wrong so that it wasn't necessary to lay siege to the town at all?

Ah, but we have gone into much more detail than the WIF Pacific map used. China has 6 times as many hexes as just one example. We did a lot of work on the area around Vladivostok too - the lake in particular.

But still, 7200 square km is a lot of land. Rarely is there only one terrain type present. So judgments need to be made as to which terrain type you are going to dip that broad brush into when you paint the hex.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

That's the wrong way round, Steve.  With the original WiF Pacific map there was an excuse to paint with a broad brush.  With the more detailed maps (at least four times more detailed by area) we have a duty to be much more accurate in how the terrain is depicted.  Imphal-Kohima to the British was as important as Bastogne to the Americans.  How would an American feel if in one of my games I had drawn the road-net around Bastogne wrong so that it wasn't necessary to lay siege to the town at all?

Roads are not part of WiF, the only ones that are are special roads (Burma Road, Arctic Road and River Roads). The brush is still broad with this scale, (Bastogne is not part of WiF either) even if the mountains are more detailed. Compare this map with the WiF Pacific scaled map For example, there is no Alpine hexside on the MWiF map.

[marcuswatney]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Ah, but we have gone into much more detail than the WIF Pacific map used. China has 6 times as many hexes as just one example. We did a lot of work on the area around Vladivostok too - the lake in particular.

Yes, I followed the debate about the border and lake around Vladivostok (if you want details of the battle of Changkufeng in 1939 and the importance of the rail-line to Seichin, I can provide). My point is that, given the attention lavished on that very unimportant part of the map, it would be nice if a truly important area such as the Indian-Burmese border was given the same tender loving care.

I don't have a huge amount of faith in the original map-maker when it comes to Burma, given that he attached the Burma Road to Myitchina instead of Lashio!

I agree that roads need to be kept to a minimum (isn't there also a road northeast from Nanning?), but Imphal was the supply head for the offensive that went on to liberate the whole of Burma, so a request for two road hexsides hardly seems excessive. Remember that Slim fought through the monsoon (another first for British arms!) Is that feasible with supply traced from an extra hex back (from the Assam railway)?

Of course, a historical game musn't strait-jacket players into following history rigidly. But equally the mechanics need to ensure that anything that was done historically can be recreated on the map, if that's what a player is really determined to do.

I note that mountain units can attack across Alpine hexsides (and, I assume, move across) so Alpine hexsides aren't totally blocking.

[marcuswatney]

In the game, could we please give Addu Atoll its proper prominence?  It was a major naval base established before the war, and considered superior to Trincomalee.  Male, in comparison, was of no significance.
 
The sea zone boundary should certainly pass through Addu Atoll, and it should be considered a major port, comparable to Truk (delete Male entirely in compensation).  Given the way the larger scale in India helps the Japanese find an unopposed landing along the west coast, this change might help discourage wild Japanese drives westwards.
 
I suppose it would be too complex to work in the fact that the Japanese never found the base.
 
Here is the relevant part of the Wikipedia entry:
 
"The British Royal Navy established a base ("Port T") on the island of Gan (pronounced “Yahn”) in 1941, during World War II. From 1957 the Royal Air Force would take control of the base, and became known as RAF Gan. During the Cold War it was used as an outpost.
 
The original naval base was established as a fall-back for the British Eastern Fleet. Despite public pronouncements to the contrary, the official view was that the main base at Singapore would be untenable if the Japanese made serious headway in Malaya and Java - which, in the event, is what happened in 1942. The intention had been to operate from Trincomalee, Ceylon (now Sri Lanka). Upon inspection, however, the naval commander-in-chief, Admiral James Somerville found the port inadequate, vulnerable to a determined attack and open to spying. An isolated island base with a safe, deep anchorage in a suitably strategic position was required, and Addu met the requirements. Once available, its facilities were used extensively by the Fleet.
 
Royal Navy engineers landed in August 1941 from HMS Guardian to clear and construct airstrips on Gan for the Fleet Air Arm. In the interim, Catalina and Sunderland flying boats operated from jetties on the northern, sheltered side of Gan. Large oil storage tanks were built on Gan, and on Hitaddu Island on the western edge of the atoll; vital elements for a naval base. These were visible from a long distances at sea, but this was unavoidable, given the atoll's low profile.
 
Ship's supplies for the fleet were provided from a pair of Australian refrigerated ships, Changte and Taiping that included Addu in a number of bases that they serviced regularly. Three times these ships replenished forty or more ships of the Eastern Fleet. Several large Australian Imperial Force troop convoys also refueled at Addu on their way from Aden to Fremantle, Western Australia.
 
The six major islands were garrisoned by the 1st Royal Marine Coast Defence Regiment, manning shore batteries and anti-aircraft guns. To facilitate the defence, causeways were built connecting the western islands of Gan, Eyehook, Maradhoo and Hithadhoo and, much later in the war, they were linked by a light railway. Addu was an unpopular posting due to the hot, humid climate, lack of recreational facilities and lack of socialising with the local population.
 
The Japanese remained unaware of the base’s existence until their plans for expansion in south-east Asia had come to nothing, even during their carrier raids in the Indian Ocean in April 1942. Later in the war, submarine reconnaissance established the base’s existence. Despite openings into the lagoon being permanently closed by anti-submarine nets, the German U-boat U-183 torpedoed the tanker British Loyalty in March 1944 (she had been previously torpedoed and sunk at Diego Suarez); it was an impressive long-range shot from outside the atoll through a gap in the anti-torpedo nets. Although seriously damaged, the tanker did not sink. She was not fully repaired but kept as a Ministry of War Transport Oil Fuel Storage Vessel."
 
Pretty impressive that a U-Boat operated this far from base.
 
You can find a detailed (post-war) map here: http://www.gan.philliptsmall.me.uk/AdduMapsLinks.htm 

[marcuswatney]

duplicate post deleted

[brian brian]

Som type IXD U-Boats, I think, operated out of Penang, on the north west coast of Sumatra I believe. No maps around right now.

[Norman42]

I remember reading about some small Indian Ocean island (the name escapes me at the moment, but I want to say it was Diego Garcia) that had an Allied weather station on it that had the dubious distinction of being the only land target that was ever attacked by both German and Japanese military forces. Both had shelled the station from submarines.

The log entries for those attacks must have been an interesting read:

Nov 1942: Blew up small abandoned hut with a weather vane on it. Expecting to be awarded Iron Cross on our return for such valor.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

In the game, could we please give Addu Atoll its proper prominence?  It was a major naval base established before the war, and considered superior to Trincomalee.  Male, in comparison, was of no significance.

The sea zone boundary should certainly pass through Addu Atoll, and it should be considered a major port, comparable to Truk (delete Male entirely in compensation).  Given the way the larger scale in India helps the Japanese find an unopposed landing along the west coast, this change might help discourage wild Japanese drives westwards.

What do others think about that ?

To correct you, from what I read it was not "a major naval base", it was "a major naval base in being", in that it had its construction that began in August 1941 and that it seems it never had any fleet based here.

[marcuswatney]

I think Addu Atoll was used actively in Spring 1942.  That is the implication of the following (from http://members.dodo.com.au/~mervynw/supermarkets.htm ):
 
[font="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"]After victualling some units at Trincomalee, "Taiping" proceeded to Colombo and then her first major assignment, to victual the Eastern Fleet at Addu Atoll in the Maldive Islands. Storing a battle fleet at a forward base, right on the equator, was a demanding operation for the fairly inexperienced Australian Stores Party but on the three occasions which "Taiping" replenished 40 odd ships, she received a "Thank you. Well done", from the Commander-in-Chief.[/font][left] [/left][font="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"]Addu Atoll was a secret emergency base which the R.N. had commenced building in August 1941 as a stand by for Trincomalee. Four months later their foresight and planning paid off and in early 1942 Addu (or "Port T" as it was known for security) provided a strategic storing and fueling facility in a key position. Several large A.I.F. Troop convoys also refueled at Addu on their way from Aden to Fremantle.[/font][left] [/left][font="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"]In early 1942 the Japanese Navy, fresh from their triumphs at Pearl Harbour and the Far East, steamed westward from Singapore to Ceylon (now Sri Lanka). Hoping to find the British Eastern Fleet, they raided both Colombo and Trincomalee with carrier based planes. They were unaware of the existence of Addu Atoll as a fleet base. Although the two fleets came close, they never sighted each other and consequently no engagement took place. [/font]