Better to look good than be good...

Huffy · Post by **Huffy** » Sat May 25, 2002 8:12 am

Well....I am in favore of the Pershing....I saw a tape on the Hist. ch. of a Pershing being the hunter in a city fight with a Panther.....the Pershing won.
Now,...on the other hand ...I was at ABD. museum last summer...and Sven told me of a Pershing that took on a JagdTiger,....the Pershing was the "underdog"....but he still won,...by...luck-or skill-...Pershing for me
Take care....
Huffy

stevemk1a · Post by **stevemk1a** » Sat May 25, 2002 8:33 am

A Pershing that took on a Jagdtiger? What's the details on that?, both vehicles are cool rarities in WWII! Pershing almost too late to see action, and the Jagdtiger the ultimate nazi expression of "we can't outnumber 'em so we better outgun 'em". I'm sure the Pershing is a far more practical weapon, but I can't resist the the Jagdtiger (though it's crews hated it...). The only combat documentation I have found involving the Jagdtiger is the action of kampfgruppe Ernst just outside of Iserlohn. Anyone know of others? Did all of these beasts just breakdown, get abandoned, or fall prey to Jabos?

Fallschirmjager · Post by **Fallschirmjager** » Sat May 25, 2002 9:04 am

Deaf 60 year olds with 3 hours of training caught up to them.

stevemk1a · Post by **stevemk1a** » Sat May 25, 2002 10:02 am

The deaf 60 year olds with almost no training are probably the crew of the Jagdtiger blowing up their own ride... ("there's not enough foliage in the Fatherland to disguise this thing!!"

)

Belisarius · Post by **Belisarius** » Sat May 25, 2002 7:38 pm

That was the problem with Jagdtigers, Königtigers, Panthers, Jagdpanthers etc. All new tanks were issued to new (=Volksgrenadier) troops w/out training, while the "old" Pz.Abts were left to bleed to death. Another brilliant strategy from the OKH :rolleyes:

This situation was similar to the one in Russia back in '41. Inexperienced crews that drove the tanks too hard and used BAD tactics caused an enourmous breakdown ratio, compared to what the veteran crews had.

Note, though, that the s.Pz.Abts operating Königtigers had a higher combat ready ratio than most Panther regiments had! (approx 60% to the Panthers' 48-50%) I've also seen reports on the Tiger II's combat target hit ratio. Up to 500 meters, 100% of the shots hit! Not training - in combat!

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 · Post by **Les_the_Sarge_9_1** » Sat May 25, 2002 8:26 pm

German late war armour proved rather nicely, bigger is just bigger, not automatically better.

That and they had a major problem with Allied air superiority.

When a column of shermans encounters a Tiger or any other biggun, they just called in air strikes and blew the monster to pieces.

Kinda explains why so many pictures of knocked out German mega tanks are upside down or on their side. 500 lb bombs will tend to do that to a tank.

stevemk1a · Post by **stevemk1a** » Sun May 26, 2002 11:04 am

O.K., from what I can find, the Jagdtiger was issued to Schwere Panzerjager Abt. 512 (2 Company commanded by tank ace Otto Carius - the unit previously operated the Elefant TD), Schwere Panzerjager Abt. 653, and a few to SS Panzer Abt 501. About 85 were made, 4 of them with the 88mm Pak 43 gun subbed for the 128mm gun due to shortages. One company from Abt 512 was intended for the Ardennes offensive, but ended up dribbled in to the Nordwind offensive further south. Some were used in Hungary in the "Fruhlingerwachen" operation (what a mouthful

). They also saw combat around Iserlohn as I mentioned in a previous post. None seemed to accomplish anything (In fact KG Ernst surrendered it's vehicles a few days after their action). I realize they were a waste of resources, and too ponderous to be effective, but I still think they're pretty interesting... does anyone out there know of any other specific actions, or descriptions of actions involving the biggest of the big cats?

Belisarius · Post by **Belisarius** » Sun May 26, 2002 3:40 pm

Originally posted by willy
The German Neubaufahrzeug prototype heavy tanks sent to Norway in 1940 prove that the Germans could also produce a hideous AFV. Any crewmember would be embarassed to be seen operating it " hey!, are those PzI turrets you got stuck all over you? - looks like you borrowed that suspension from the Tommys!"

On parade in Oslo, 1940.

"no those are not turrets - it's an allergic reaction to cold and wet climate!"

stevemk1a · Post by **stevemk1a** » Mon May 27, 2002 8:14 am

O.K. "seek and ye shall find"... at www.panzerworld.net/Jagdtiger I found a great rundown on the operations of Jagdtiger units- some neat facts:
-first one lost to enemy action was by bazooka
-they were used as indirect artillery in the Hagenau forest
-at the town of Schwetzingen one was offed by a Sherman at 200m! (You M4 guys should like that!)

Better to look good than be good...

By request - the PzKfw Nbfz VIs