Dive, Dive, Dive, Ooops!

Didz · Post by **Didz** » Fri May 24, 2002 10:45 pm

Up to recently I have been sticking my sub patrols in the same hex as the Japanese ports and clocking up quite a healthy tally of IJN supply ships. However. this struck me as rather bad practice as the chances of a sub surviving for long so close to a major enemy naval base would be pretty slim.

So I checked the manual to see if I was suffering any penalty for this tactic.

Sure enough Section 13 page 124 of the manual states that when in coastal waters submarines cannot take full advantage of their maximum diving depth and more at risk to ASW attack. (Doesn't exactly say how much more)

My question is which hexes are classified as coastal for this purpose?

Some are obvious but what about a hex with a small island in the middle. Is there any way of telling for sure?

Hartmann · Post by **Hartmann** » Fri May 24, 2002 10:49 pm

I don't know whether I'm maybe mistaken here, but I judge this mainly from the colour of the sea. If it is very light blue then the water should be shallow.

Hartmann

Joel Billings · Post by **Joel Billings** » Fri May 24, 2002 11:01 pm

I wondered how long it would take someone to ask this question. Unfortunately the map data that says which hexes are shallow was not given to the artist that drew the map so any correlation is accidental. We have a request in for the artist to draw the WitP map so that the "shallow" water hexes are shaded lighter than the rest. It was an unfortunate oversight in our development which was the result of our not knowing that Gary had put this code into the game until it was too late to change the art.

When people comment about how deep this game is, they have no idea. I spent 2 months practically full time trying to suck information out of Gary's brain as to how things worked in the code (this was for the detailed notes that eventually morphed into a manual with the hard work of many people and many drafts). Even after working on the manual off and on for what turned out to be about a year, I still feel we've barely unlocked half of the mysteries that dwell inside the code.

As for the shallow water, perhaps we can find a way to post a hex by hex listing of what hexes are shallow. I'll look into it.

Hartmann · Post by **Hartmann** » Fri May 24, 2002 11:30 pm

Originally posted by Joel Billings
SNIP Unfortunately the map data that says which hexes are shallow was not given to the artist that drew the map so any correlation is accidental. SNIP

Oops!

What a pity, though. A hex listing would be great, Joel!

Hartmann

IChristie · Post by **IChristie** » Fri May 24, 2002 11:34 pm

"The map artist" has been integrated much earlier in the WITP development. Rumour even has it that this individual foolishly volunteered to take responsibility for verifying the correspondence between the map database and the map graphics.

Hartmann · Post by **Hartmann** » Fri May 24, 2002 11:38 pm

Thanks IChristie for doing that.

Do you even know that you "personally" appear in the game? I don't remember, though, whether you're flying an airplane or commanding a vessel ...

Hartmann

IChristie · Post by **IChristie** » Fri May 24, 2002 11:43 pm

Do you even know that you "personally" appear in the game? I don't remember, though, whether you're flying an airplane or commanding a vessel

I actually did not know that. If anyone has more detailed information - let me know so I can track my alter-ego down.

(To tell you the truth I have not seen the full version of the game yet,. UPS tried unsuccessfully to deliver the game today. Now it has gone back into the great UPS "brown" hole until Monday, I guess.)

brisd · Post by **brisd** » Sat May 25, 2002 1:56 am

Joel Billings: I wondered how long it would take someone to ask this question. Unfortunately the map data that says which hexes are shallow was not given to the artist that drew the map so any correlation is accidental.

I must assume from that comment that "fixing" the current UV map, by either color shading it correctly or highlighting the shallow hexes at this point is not an option?

The USN sub's are killing me in my Scenario 17 campaign along the southern New Guinea coast, it would be good to know where they are the most vulerable. I am marshalling my ASW forces in hope of revenging my AP's!

Iain - I think WITP's map is in good hands with you.

Crocky · Post by **Crocky** » Sat May 25, 2002 2:03 am

Escorts are a must if subs are around now that Kid and I are 240 days into Scen 17 his subs are around alot all convoys have at least 1 DD with them and it is noticable that his success rate has dropped off

Oh and he sent 2 subs into Lunga after my transports I had 4 DDs in the hex ...scratch 2 subs

Philbill1 · Post by **Philbill1** » Sat May 25, 2002 2:27 am

I too send my subs to Jap bases with very good results. I assume that as the game progresses the escorts get better at attacking and sinking them. I could see this tactic being a problem in an e-mail game. Perhaps escorts near bases should get a bonus against subs;)
Phil

malvoisin · Post by **malvoisin** » Sat May 25, 2002 4:50 am

I spent 2 months practically full time trying to suck information out of Gary's brain as to how things worked in the code (this was for the detailed notes that eventually morphed into a manual with the hard work of many people and many drafts).

oh! that explains why there's no How Fatigue Works in the manual.

i take it that gary hasn't really gotten into structured programming then. i'm not entirely sure whether i'm Really Impressed that the whole game design exists in gary's head and the code or kind of Scared.

that being said, if its possible to document the Magic Numbers in witp, it would be really really really cool.

David Heath · Post by **David Heath** » Sat May 25, 2002 6:21 am

Mike Wood and myself placed everone involved in the project including the playtesters as extra replacement officiers. So do not be surprised if you find a Billings, Wood, Grigsby or Moorhouse flying and fighting for your cause.

strollen · Post by **strollen** » Sat May 25, 2002 6:43 am

Do you guys appears as Japanese officers or just American.

I was looking forward to assign Billings-son to my main CV task force and blaming everything on him

Joel Billings · Post by **Joel Billings** » Sat May 25, 2002 7:06 am

Actually in many cases it was a matter of the formulas being too complex to make it worthwhile to try to explain them. I know some of you would love the opportunity to look at the raw combat formulas, but documenting the formulas would have taken too much time away from working on the project. Of course this assumes we could have understood them a year after they were originally written.

Mike Wood · Post by **Mike Wood** » Sat May 25, 2002 8:40 am

Hello...

As to shallow waters, you can count on most all the hexes in the slot and any along coast lines to be shallow water. Beyond that, there is no way to know, short of poking the hex with a long stick.

Have Fun...

Michael Wood

malvoisin · Post by **malvoisin** » Sat May 25, 2002 8:45 am

Originally posted by Joel Billings
Of course this assumes we could have understood them a year after they were originally written.

it's always kind of fun when that happens.

but instead of the exact formulas would it possible to get info on -how- the numbers increase, what's the marginal cost of one more point, and maybe value thresholds (a fatigue level of x is dangerous!)? the way things stand now (i'll just use fatigue on aircrews as an example) i don't even know if the effects of fatigue are linear (if a fatigue of 2x is twice as bad as a fatigue of x) and at what fatigue value aircrews officially become training drones for the opposition.

basically, without knowing the affects of fatigue, i am unable to make a rational decision about what i'm going to do with my planes as i have no way of balancing the opportunity cost of resting with the fatigue cost of mounting operations.

an idea just came to mind. maybe in verstion 2.0 or witp, i could get a single number (say a percent rating mission effectiveness) which would be a function of the 'maintenance' variables that affect the odds of success (fatigue, disruption, support, morale, etc.) for a typical mission for that unit.

this way i could tell at a glance whether any given unit really should stay home from school that day and take some of the voodoo out of the system (and you wouldn't even have to publish the formulas.)

i don't know how possible this is, but it would sure help people (well, me at any rate) make better decisions.

thanks for reading and despite my whingeing about this, please be aware that i've done nothing but dork around with the game since i got it on wednesday (or thinking about dorking around with the game when i wasn't.) now if i could only figure out what CV meant...

Ron Saueracker · Post by **Ron Saueracker** » Sat May 25, 2002 8:49 am

I hope these officers don't suck!!!!!!!:D Ever think of using a few NCO's for the tough jobs? (Man, I'm gonna die here!!!):p So much for any hopes play testing WITP!

Ron Saueracker · Post by **Ron Saueracker** » Tue May 28, 2002 12:03 am

It looks like I got away with that comment. Given Iain's aggressive and successful handling of the Allies in his AAR, how high would, or should, his rating be? (I'm assuming they are randomly generated and limited to middle of the road performance) Gotta be up there considering the bare bum spanking he gave the AI. He would also be Japanese. AKA Kristii Iainoruku.

I love it when developers put their hardworking guys into the mix. Makes it kinda fun.

Dive, Dive, Dive, Ooops!

Dive, Dive, Dive, Ooops!

It won't be a problem in WITP

good info to know

ah hah!

Replacement Offeicers!

Whew...