Solomon Islands Map

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Control, in the abstract, is more difficult.

[brian brian]

on the current paper map, most of the hexes around the Solomons aren't part of a specific territory. each hex is it's own territory, so you can either take the hex, or take all of the ports in that sea zone and get all the single hex islands that way?

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: brian brian
my head is spinning trying to figure out which territory would fall from taking which port. maybe I play it wrong with a ghost of WiF past, but if you take every port in a sea zone, you get all the hexes, except the border hexes, unless you take all the ports in both zones. Territories don't have capitals and this is the only way to conquer them. ???

Ghost of WiF past I believe.

Harry made a clarification that the Carolines are a Territory, not Truk.
This apples to all island chains, and the name of the Territory is written in a special font on the map (See TEC).
The only problem is deciding what are the boundaries of those Territories on the WiF FE map, and I guess for a couple of them this might vary from group to group, but in MWiF the Territories are defined precisely. Each hex belong to some entity, either a Major Power, a Minor Country, or a Territory.

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Q324> 2.5 tells that a territory is defined by an INF walking to each hexes of the Territory. The same source, also tells us that Truk for example is a Territory. For the conquest, this means that each island in the Caroline Islands for example has to be conquered one by one.
The Map and the TEC on the other hand, show us that Territories' Names are written on the map in a certain way (Font & Size), and Caroline Islands, Mariana Islands, Palau Islands, etc... are written this way. This makes me think that the Caroline Islands are a Territory, that is conquered when Ponape and Truk are conquered.
Is this right ?

Answer> A territory is the Carolines, not Truk. Date 29/08/2006.
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(FAQ not yet published)

[marcuswatney]

Map Review - Pacific Islands, Post 76 (from Patrice, referring to the map in Post 74) says: "The dashed red lines & curves show the boundaries between the territories formed by the Islands".  Since there are so many more islands these days, I welcome their being conquered via the territories mechanic like this, rather than having to be invaded individually.

In fact I would go so far as to say I would like to be able to toggle these dashed red lines on and off when zoomed out to get a visual reminder of what belongs to what.

"Answer> A territory is the Carolines, not Truk. Date 29/08/2006"

This sits uncomfortably with me, given that Truk was the capital of the Eastern Carolines.  I understood that Palau, Yap and Ulithi formd the Western Carolines, and everything else in that region (including Truk) were the Eastern Carolines.

Or did Harry mean that Truk is not a territory in its own right, but is one of the ports in the territory of the Carolines?

[marcuswatney]

New Ireland problem

Comparing Post 3 and Post 51, it suddenly dawned on me why I feel so uncomfortable about New Ireland.  In WiF FE, Rabaul can be attacked by conventional ground units from one hex, and by MAR from anything up to four hexes, so bumping up the amount of shore-bombardment that can be applied.  The MWiF map has undone this opportunity to attack Rabaul from more than one hex, which makes Rabaul that much stronger.

In reality, New Ireland comes very close to Rabaul (on the 1985 map there is even a crossing arrow).  I suggest rotating New Ireland about 20 or 30 degrees clockwise about its northwestern tip, dragging Tabar Islands and Lihir with it, and slightly re-aligning Bougainville, Buka and Green.  (Tabar, Lihir and Green form pretty much a straight line, while Buka is really just an appendage of Bougainville, which itself broadly points along the axis of New Ireland).

[brian brian]

I still think you are looking at the islands a bit wrong, recall this sentence:

"You also conquer a territory if you control every port and coastal city in every sea area the territory has a coastal hex in."

So to conquer the small islands inside the Solomons Sea Zone, frex, you need Ponape, Guadalcanal, Espiritu Santu, and one or two more CW minor ports I can't recall right now. Then you get every hex inside the sea zone. Each of those hexes is a separate territory already. Maybe for programming purposes it would be better to assign them to territories in groups, but that is not how WiF FE works for us. Harry's answer doesn't quite clarify this (imagine that). I can't see a paper map right now, but I recall just the word "Carolines", NOT "Carolines (Jp)", which is entirely different from say "British Somaliland (CW)". Perhaps there is a (Jp) there that I don't recall, but there are definitely hexes that Marines can't walk to another port on the WiF FE map, and many many more on the new map...this makes them not part of any other home country or territory, unless you set up _a lot_ of territory boundaries. The island hex control is denoted by a (JP) or (CW) or (NEI) or (US) after the sea zone. So we've always gone by the initial control on the map, changing if you get all the ports in that sea zone. That is fairly similar to conquering a capital-less territory, but not exactly the same. I'm not saying grouping all the islands in official territories is a bad way to go about it, but not using the ports/sea area mechanic is a change. I think you may have this problem in other areas of the map perhaps too, especially when some bits of barely broken surf are now complete land hexes.

For example, the only way to take the Admiralty Islands territory (a new one) is to walk over each and every one of them, as the territory doesn't even have a port. Same for the new territory of New Ireland. Unless the mechanic of taking all the ports in a sea zone is still in the game and I'm not aware of that?

[brian brian]

OK, I looked through the Pacific map thread and it has a screen shot of the WiF FE map which does show the "Carolines (Ja)", making that an official territory - take Truk and Ponape and you get all of the hexes you could walk a MAR to, in current WiF FE. But now, of course, some of the hexes are farther apart.

But making the Japanase walk over all of New Ireland and all of the Admiralty's is somewhat of a penalty for them, where previously they had to take the NEI, Rabaul, Lae, and Wewak I think.

The current sea zone & ports system would require the use and definition of a lot less territories, at least in how they would appear on the map, but would require a different code structure for changing control than simply conquering the territory.



and upon another, deeper reading of this thread (the coffee has started working finally), I see the proposal is to make the current New Ireland and Admiralty Islands territories shown above part of New Britain, which would include Rabaul, giving this territory a port and thus conquerable by taking that port.
This would be OK for the Japanese, and actually a bit easier to get these hexes as they wouldn't need Lae or Wewak any more. You may end up with some not quite historical territory groups this way though.

but you will definitely need to highlight this change to the conquest rules in the Rules as Coded document.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I still think you are looking at the islands a bit wrong, recall this sentence:

"You also conquer a territory if you control every port and coastal city in every sea area the territory has a coastal hex in."

Which means that to conquer the Caroline, you need to conquer Truk & Ponape.

So to conquer the small islands inside the Solomons Sea Zone, frex, you need Ponape, Guadalcanal, Espiritu Santu, and one or two more CW minor ports I can't recall right now.

No, you only need to control Guadalcanal. Guadalcanal is the only port of the Solomon.

Then you get every hex inside the sea zone. Each of those hexes is a separate territory already. Maybe for programming purposes it would be better to assign them to territories in groups, but that is not how WiF FE works for us. Harry's answer doesn't quite clarify this (imagine that).

I think it clarifies the thing perfectly, more so if you look at the TEC that shows you how a Territory name is labelled.

For example, the only way to take the Admiralty Islands territory (a new one) is to walk over each and every one of them, as the territory doesn't even have a port. Same for the new territory of New Ireland. Unless the mechanic of taking all the ports in a sea zone is still in the game and I'm not aware of that?

Admiralty Islands and New Ireland are not new Territories, they exist in WiF FE, see the map and the TEC. As they have no ports, you must crawl on each of their hexes to conquer them.
Putting them part of the Bismarck Sea Archipelago new Territory would make them fall to the Japanese when Rabaul falls, which is more historical.

[marcuswatney]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Control, in the abstract, is more difficult.

"A home country consists of every hex that a MAR could reach from the capital of that home country without crossing a red political boundary or entering a hex containing the name of another major power."

This is going to have to be defined differently for MWiF: the change of scale makes it no longer true. For example, a MAR setting off from Batavia cannot walk to Dutch Borneo except via the Celebes and the Philippines, which would involve crossing a red political border.

I suggest we cut the Ghordian Knot. This is a computer game. Keep the existing font for home countries and have a new distinct one (perhaps a Brush script?) for territories. Allow the player to toggle a display showing all the relevant borders, with dashed red lines connecting overseas parts of territories, with the type of font revealing their status. Give up trying to define home countries and territories in words.

(A lot of the problem is the use of the phrase 'home country', which to me always means the player's home country, i.e. major power. Reading that the NEI is a home country makes me go "Whaaa....?")

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I still think you are looking at the islands a bit wrong, recall this sentence:

"You also conquer a territory if you control every port and coastal city in every sea area the territory has a coastal hex in."

So to conquer the small islands inside the Solomons Sea Zone, frex, you need Ponape, Guadalcanal, Espiritu Santu, and one or two more CW minor ports I can't recall right now. Then you get every hex inside the sea zone. Each of those hexes is a separate territory already. Maybe for programming purposes it would be better to assign them to territories in groups, but that is not how WiF FE works for us. Harry's answer doesn't quite clarify this (imagine that). I can't see a paper map right now, but I recall just the word "Carolines", NOT "Carolines (Jp)", which is entirely different from say "British Somaliland (CW)". Perhaps there is a (Jp) there that I don't recall, but there are definitely hexes that Marines can't walk to another port on the WiF FE map, and many many more on the new map...this makes them not part of any other home country or territory, unless you set up _a lot_ of territory boundaries. The island hex control is denoted by a (JP) or (CW) or (NEI) or (US) after the sea zone. So we've always gone by the initial control on the map, changing if you get all the ports in that sea zone. That is fairly similar to conquering a capital-less territory, but not exactly the same. I'm not saying grouping all the islands in official territories is a bad way to go about it, but not using the ports/sea area mechanic is a change. I think you may have this problem in other areas of the map perhaps too, especially when some bits of barely broken surf are now complete land hexes.

For example, the only way to take the Admiralty Islands territory (a new one) is to walk over each and every one of them, as the territory doesn't even have a port. Same for the new territory of New Ireland. Unless the mechanic of taking all the ports in a sea zone is still in the game and I'm not aware of that?

I haven't read the code for this in detail (its from CWIF) but my task is to implement RAW. In practice that is to implement RAC (Rules as Coded) and the two posts I made of the rules above were taken from RAC.

This means that if a territory does not contain any ports or cities, it can be conquered either by traversing every hex, or using the line of the rules you quoted.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Control, in the abstract, is more difficult.

"A home country consists of every hex that a MAR could reach from the capital of that home country without crossing a red political boundary or entering a hex containing the name of another major power."

This is going to have to be defined differently for MWiF: the change of scale makes it no longer true. For example, a MAR setting off from Batavia cannot walk to Dutch Borneo except via the Celebes and the Philippines, which would involve crossing a red political border.

I suggest we cut the Ghordian Knot. This is a computer game. Keep the existing font for home countries and have a new distinct one (perhaps a Brush script?) for territories. Allow the player to toggle a display showing all the relevant borders, with dashed red lines connecting overseas parts of territories, with the type of font revealing their status. Give up trying to define home countries and territories in words.

(A lot of the problem is the use of the phrase 'home country', which to me always means the player's home country, i.e. major power. Reading that the NEI is a home country makes me go "Whaaa....?")

There are a lot of pieces of the rules that could be clarified/refined. That is not my task.

In practice, the game displays a major power flag for every hex, so who controls what is trivial to determine. Well, actaully, for neutral countries no flag is shown.

We had talked about using dashed lines in the Pacific to indicate territorial borders, but that is non-trivial to implement. While certainly helpful, I am not sure that doing so is crucial for game play.

[marcuswatney]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I still think you are looking at the islands a bit wrong, recall this sentence:

"You also conquer a territory if you control every port and coastal city in every sea area the territory has a coastal hex in."

Which means that to conquer the Caroline, you need to conquer Truk & Ponape.

Ah, I see the ambiguity. Patrice's interpretation is as if the sentence were written "You also conquer a territory if you control every port and coastal city in that territory in every sea area the territory has a coastal hex in"

As written it does imply that if a territory has a single coastal hex in a particular sea-area, then you need to control all that sea-area's ports and cities, however far-flung (and including those outside the territory).

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I still think you are looking at the islands a bit wrong, recall this sentence:

"You also conquer a territory if you control every port and coastal city in every sea area the territory has a coastal hex in."

Which means that to conquer the Caroline, you need to conquer Truk & Ponape.

Ah, I see the ambiguity. Patrice's interpretation is as if the sentence were written "You also conquer a territory if you control every port and coastal city in that territory in every sea area the territory has a coastal hex in"

As written it does imply that if a territory has a single coastal hex in a particular sea-area, then you need to control all that sea-area's ports and cities, however far-flung (and including those outside the territory).

No.

"You also conquer ..." means that there is another way to conquer a territory, not that there is another requirement.

[marcuswatney]

Yes, I accept that this is a secondary (alternative) way of conquering territories, which amounts to tidying up after a great offensive.  But Patrice's comment suggested he wasn't aware of it.

[marcuswatney]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

We had talked about using dashed lines in the Pacific to indicate territorial borders, but that is non-trivial to implement. While certainly helpful, I am not sure that doing so is crucial for game play.

I would vote for this as being essential, especially for newbies. It is not a question of merely flagging up actual control after the event (which of course is already programmed), but appreciating which remote islands will fall to you or your opponent by default if a critical port is taken in the future.

Even knowing the layout of the Pacific very well, I find myself forgetting the exact borders of the many island groups, especially since so many of them are elongated and lie parallel to others. Thus, looking at the display at Post 72 in the 'MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands', I can see straight away that if I, as the Allies, recapture Tarawa, I will immediately get Makin and Ocean too if my opponent has not garrisoned them.

Take a look at Post 183 in that same Pacific Islands thread. It makes the complex web of territories crystal clear with a single toggling keystroke. I would never have guessed that who controls Suva also controls the two-front Rotuma (if not garrisoned), nor that Wallis & Fortuna is linked to control of Tonga. Nor that that islet north of Pago Pago belongs to American Samoa.

And Post 188 not only reveals the gargantuan size of French Polynesia, but also warns the Japanese player in a couple of quick glances that capture of Tahiti is not going to bring him any more real estate until he also captures the wildly distant outposts of Maria and Mangareva.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

We had talked about using dashed lines in the Pacific to indicate territorial borders, but that is non-trivial to implement. While certainly helpful, I am not sure that doing so is crucial for game play.

I would vote for this as being essential, especially for newbies. It is not a question of merely flagging up actual control after the event (which of course is already programmed), but appreciating which remote islands will fall to you or your opponent by default if a critical port is taken in the future.

Even knowing the layout of the Pacific very well, I find myself forgetting the exact borders of the many island groups, especially since so many of them are elongated and lie parallel to others. Thus, looking at the display at Post 72 in the 'MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands', I can see straight away that if I, as the Allies, recapture Tarawa, I will immediately get Makin and Ocean too if my opponent has not garrisoned them.

Take a look at Post 183 in that same Pacific Islands thread. It makes the complex web of territories crystal clear with a single toggling keystroke. I would never have guessed that who controls Suva also controls the two-front Rotuma (if not garrisoned), nor that Wallis & Fortuna is linked to control of Tonga. Nor that that islet north of Pago Pago belongs to American Samoa.

And Post 188 not only reveals the gargantuan size of French Polynesia, but also warns the Japanese player in a couple of quick glances that capture of Tahiti is not going to bring him any more real estate until he also captures the wildly distant outposts of Maria and Mangareva.

[Norman42]

Is it possible to show on cursor hover or some similar method what specific territory or home country a hex belongs to?

I too find the control and conquest rules ambiguous, and also with the scale change on the Pac Map, Harry's definition will not even be accurate anymore, since the places an infantry or marine can walk are different at WiF and MWiF scales.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Norman42


Is it possible to show on cursor hover or some similar method what specific territory or home country a hex belongs to?

I too find the control and conquest rules ambiguous, and also with the scale change on the Pac Map, Harry's definition will not even be accurate anymore, since the places an infantry or marine can walk are different at WiF and MWiF scales.

MWiF has that.
On this screenshot, you have the mouse cursor on Wallis & Futuna.
Both bars on the top of this screenshot learn you that (from left to righ, and then bottom) :

Top Bar :
The hex belongs to the Commonwealth.
There is fine weather on this hex.
This hex is in the South Monsoon Weather Zone.
This is a Clear Terrain hex.
This is adjacent to Polynesia Sea Area.

Bottom Bar :
This is the US PLaying.
This is the S/O 39 turn.
This is the Setup step.
This is "Wallis et Futuna (tonga)", in the Tonga country, and this is hex 131,212.

[Norman42]

So with the conquest of Nukualofa (the Tonga port) you would gain conquest of all these islands labelled (Tonga)?

And in the case of Solomon's Islands, with the conquest of Guadalcanal port you would conquest all of the Solomons? Including San Cristobal and other isles not connected via hexside to Guadalcanal?

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Norman42

So with the conquest of Nukualofa (the Tonga port) you would gain conquest of all these islands labelled (Tonga)?

And in the case of Solomon's Islands, with the conquest of Guadalcanal port you would conquest all of the Solomons? Including San Cristobal and other isles not connected via hexside to Guadalcanal?

You would gain control of the Tonga Islands Territory.
Not all islands from the Tonga Islands Territory have the label Tonga in brackets. I only put it for islands that were quite far away from the Territory, so that it helps know where they belong.