Australia wants the F-22

[Maromak]

ORIGINAL: Armygrognard

ORIGINAL: Marauders

This begs the question, when is it that you believe China is going to invade Australia?

One would think the F-16 FSX/F-2 to be good enough to defend Australian air space.

Heck, I don't even believe the United States really needs the F-22.

There's the truth of it. The Raptor is so far advanced that it doesn't have a competitor even close to it. It is a response to a threat 20 years down the road.

Still, it's a beautiful plane to watch. I was up near Lockheed in Atlanta when one flwe over, going slow and low. Oh so nice...

Isn't the idea of any weapons system is that it should be seen to be so good that the enemy will think twice about attacking in the first place??

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: Armygrognard


There's the truth of it. The Raptor is so far advanced that it doesn't have a competitor even close to it. It is a response to a threat 20 years down the road.

Still, it's a beautiful plane to watch. I was up near Lockheed in Atlanta when one flwe over, going slow and low. Oh so nice...

I heard a jet steaking by outside my office building yesterday and stepped out to discover it was an F-104 Starfighter which was my favorite plane when I was just a wee lad. I am told by a colleague that there are two of them privately owned stationed at the nearby Coast Guard airport.

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: Neilster

This is what I originally wrote...

The new Australian government wants the option to buy F-22 Raptors, which I believe would require a law change in the US. Defence experts here have been loudly calling for this but the previous government appeared to be on the drugs when it came to defence acquisition.

Their mystifying decision to retire the F-111 early and bridge the gap until the F-35 with (outrageously expensive IMHO) Super Hornets has been roundly criticised. The F-35 may not reach RAAF squadrons until 2018ish, leaving Australia's air defence to 24 Super Hornets and updated but aging F-18s in the meantime. There's an ongoing build-up of pretty hot Russian fighters armed with scary weaponry in our region and by 2018 there's a good chance that the 5th generation Russian "Raptorski" could be in service with our northern neighbours.

In short, the F-111 shouldn't be retired and we should request F-22s. The Triple One has unique capabilities, had a massive upgrade in the late 90s and is not that expensive to maintain. The F-22 is in service, is extremely capable, has room for capability growth and has a unit price that is coming down. A nice fat order from Oz will keep the production line open and bring down the unit price for the US taxpayer too (because I think the USAF will be buying more).

IMHO the US would be foolish to deny Australia F-22s and let us lose our regional air superiority. Australia has been a trustworthy and loyal ally and it seems like a win/win situation to sell us some Raptors.

Now exactly what in that suggests "Hey guys we are entitled to this so you should stop being jerks and let us buy it"? I used the word "request" and suggested that this could be a symbiotic relationship.

You have misrepresented my position and dragged the whole "liberals vs conservatives" war into this. I also wasn't splitting hairs over the word "provide" either. You used it in the context of the US being taken for granted and it has connotations of charity.

Cheers, Neilster

I was merely trying to provide a reasonble explanation for why you found yourself on the receiving end of caustic commentary.

I see at least a smattering of "stop being jerks" in the phrase "the US would be foolish".......but I guess you don't. It also came across to me smacking of entitlement mentality and that is why I invoked the liberals vs. conservatives issue to illustrate it, but I guess you don't see any inclination toward entitlement mentality in your entreaty.

In case you didn't notice my response was NOT one of the caustic ones and I did state my support for you stated desire. [:)]

Peace through superior firepower......for the Aussies as well as the Amis![8D]

[Neilster]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: Neilster

This is what I originally wrote...

The new Australian government wants the option to buy F-22 Raptors, which I believe would require a law change in the US. Defence experts here have been loudly calling for this but the previous government appeared to be on the drugs when it came to defence acquisition.

Their mystifying decision to retire the F-111 early and bridge the gap until the F-35 with (outrageously expensive IMHO) Super Hornets has been roundly criticised. The F-35 may not reach RAAF squadrons until 2018ish, leaving Australia's air defence to 24 Super Hornets and updated but aging F-18s in the meantime. There's an ongoing build-up of pretty hot Russian fighters armed with scary weaponry in our region and by 2018 there's a good chance that the 5th generation Russian "Raptorski" could be in service with our northern neighbours.

In short, the F-111 shouldn't be retired and we should request F-22s. The Triple One has unique capabilities, had a massive upgrade in the late 90s and is not that expensive to maintain. The F-22 is in service, is extremely capable, has room for capability growth and has a unit price that is coming down. A nice fat order from Oz will keep the production line open and bring down the unit price for the US taxpayer too (because I think the USAF will be buying more).

IMHO the US would be foolish to deny Australia F-22s and let us lose our regional air superiority. Australia has been a trustworthy and loyal ally and it seems like a win/win situation to sell us some Raptors.

Now exactly what in that suggests "Hey guys we are entitled to this so you should stop being jerks and let us buy it"? I used the word "request" and suggested that this could be a symbiotic relationship.

You have misrepresented my position and dragged the whole "liberals vs conservatives" war into this. I also wasn't splitting hairs over the word "provide" either. You used it in the context of the US being taken for granted and it has connotations of charity.

Cheers, Neilster

I was merely trying to provide a reasonble explanation for why you found yourself on the receiving end of caustic commentary.

I see at least a smattering of "stop being jerks" in the phrase "the US would be foolish".......but I guess you don't. It also came across to me smacking of entitlement mentality and that is why I invoked the liberals vs. conservatives issue to illustrate it, but I guess you don't see any inclination toward entitlement mentality in your entreaty.

In case you didn't notice my response was NOT one of the caustic ones and I did state my support for you stated desire. [:)]

Peace through superior firepower......for the Aussies as well as the Amis![8D]

I could have been a bit more tactful about the title of the post but Australians, like Americans, are straight shooters. I also still have connections in the RAAF and I know what the whispers are there and they are very direct.

The sentence you mention had an IMHO (In my humble opinion) at the front of it, so I don't think it's fair to categorise it as you have. It's my honest opinion based on my reading of the evolving geo-political situation in light of the long cooperation between Australia and the United States in defence.

I suspect there's an understandable, post 9/11-circle the wagons-it's us against the rest element to this. Perhaps the 2001 attacks came as a such a dreadful shock to many Americans that there was a natural inclination to withdraw to what was safe and known. The same thing happened here after the Bali bombings. In such a climate, and when the United States has such a revolutionary weapon, there may be a feeling that it must be reserved for your use only. The reality though is that the rest of the world contains a lot of the good guys and bearded crazies don't fly fighters. [;)]

Cheers, Neilster

[Armygrognard]

ORIGINAL: Maromak

ORIGINAL: Armygrognard

ORIGINAL: Marauders

This begs the question, when is it that you believe China is going to invade Australia?

One would think the F-16 FSX/F-2 to be good enough to defend Australian air space.

Heck, I don't even believe the United States really needs the F-22.

There's the truth of it. The Raptor is so far advanced that it doesn't have a competitor even close to it. It is a response to a threat 20 years down the road.

Still, it's a beautiful plane to watch. I was up near Lockheed in Atlanta when one flwe over, going slow and low. Oh so nice...

Isn't the idea of any weapons system is that it should be seen to be so good that the enemy will think twice about attacking in the first place??

Conventionally speaking, I think we already have the systems in place.

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

I heard a jet steaking by outside my office building yesterday and stepped out to discover it was an F-104 Starfighter which was my favorite plane when I was just a wee lad. I am told by a colleague that there are two of them privately owned stationed at the nearby Coast Guard airport.

Nice! I've never seen one fly. I was thrilled at Ft. Bragg once to see about 15-20 Huey's fly by with that distinctive 'thump, thump, thump'. Man, I shoulda been aircrew...

[ORANGE]

ORIGINAL: Neilster
I could have been a bit more tactful about the title of the post but Australians, like Americans, are straight shooters. I also still have connections in the RAAF and I know what the whispers are there and they are very direct.

The sentence you mention had an IMHO (In my humble opinion) at the front of it, so I don't think it's fair to categorise it as you have. It's my honest opinion based on my reading of the evolving geo-political situation in light of the long cooperation between Australia and the United States in defence.

I suspect there's an understandable, post 9/11-circle the wagons-it's us against the rest element to this. Perhaps the 2001 attacks came as a such a dreadful shock to many Americans that there was a natural inclination to withdraw to what was safe and known. The same thing happened here after the Bali bombings. In such a climate, and when the United States has such a revolutionary weapon, there may be a feeling that it must be reserved for your use only. The reality though is that the rest of the world contains a lot of the good guys and bearded crazies don't fly fighters. [;)]

Cheers, Neilster

First I would question the benefit of calling anyone using a nazi as their avatar as my ally.

Second I think the circle the wagons approach has come after 9/11 watching people in other countries just slam us over and over again after all we have given.

Now you want more.

It seems that if you were a worthy ally you could develop your own fighter instead of begging for one to be handed to you?

[Erik Rutins]

Hey folks,

Well, this is crossing over into politics and such rather than just F-22s, so I'm going to have to lock the discussion.

Regards,

- Erik