Comprehensive Wishlist

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ColinWright
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay




You and Jarek seem to fancy yourselves as some sort of dictators. You would have the ability to constrain your own scenarios. But the vast number of existing scenarios will never be updated. They need this option.

Lol. Well, yeah -- when it comes to my own scenario, I guess you could say I lay claim to dictatorial powers over what it will and won't be. How about you? What are you working on now? Kick it over to me so I can 'fix' your OOB and stuff -- modify it as I see fit. Or are you being 'some sort of dictator'?
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a white rabbit
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by a white rabbit »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
I think this largely misses my point. A British infantry battalion in 1941 could not have just swapped out its 'scout carriers' for Marmon-Herrington armored cars. Equally to the point, it certainly wouldn't have. It certainly wouldn't be an improvement in OPART if it became possible to do this without the scenario designer having chosen to make it possible.

I see it just the opposite. If, in 1941, the British were flush with gobs of Marmon-Herringtons and completely out of scout carriers, they'd be fools not to put the M-Hs into the line somewhere. And that's a real issue in TOAW. It happens all the time. You find yourself desperately short of some item and flush with another that could easily substitute for it. Now, you can't do anything about it. I want to give players the option to do so. No one would be forced to use it.

You and Jarek seem to fancy yourselves as some sort of dictators. You would have the ability to constrain your own scenarios. But the vast number of existing scenarios will never be updated. They need this option.

..isn't that what empty slots and cadre units that can be disbanded are for ? to enable a certain degree of player control ? and now that we've loads'a events....

..so ? many scens won't be updated by the author, the good ones will be by someone, and i'm sorry, but trying to twist the game to make auto-upgrades is a waste of energy, cadres were available from Toaw1, if the designer chose not to use them s'just another example of bad design...

..like xs ant units...[:'(]
..toodA, irmAb moAs'lyB 'exper'mentin'..,..beàn'tus all..?,
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a white rabbit
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by a white rabbit »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

Put it this way.

My typical British rifle battalion in Seelowe:

33/36 rifle

2/2 light rifle

9/12 50 mm mortar

2/2 3 inch mortar

1/2 dual AA MG

7/10 Bren Carrier

..i didn't get the 50mm mortars and aren't you missing a few rifle AT- squads and some HMGs ?..

..other than i went for Lt rifle, with Rifle for the LMGs and made TOE divisible by 3 we basically agree..

..edit..Add to the wish-list..can we have battalions dividing into 4 please ?
..toodA, irmAb moAs'lyB 'exper'mentin'..,..beàn'tus all..?,
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Curtis Lemay
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
You tend to see wargames and scenarios as somehow necessarily reflecting reality. Witness your use of 'War in the Pacific' to 'prove' that the Japanese could have conquered Hawaii. So when you see some scenario where various categories of equipment aren't getting used, you see it as unreasonable that you can't make use of it.

I have no idea what that has to do with this issue, but, since you've raised it, note that it wasn't just "War in the Pacific", it was primarily "Pacific War", but also every wargame on that subject ever made, including one of your own playtests. And I seem to recall you swearing up and down that there were no ports or airfields on the neighboring islands, only to be proved dead wrong - and Pacific War vindicated - in the end. Wargames are secondary sources, like most books.

Back to the issue at hand. I'm finishing up a playtest of "France 1944 D-Day" as we speak. For the longest time, there have been shortages of M4/75s, while M4/76s languish in the pools. It's absurd to suggest that the Allies wouldn't have swapped out the M4/75s with M4/76s. You don't need any designer intervention to know that. I suggest we treat players as adults, since about 99% of the scenarios will never be updated.
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Curtis Lemay
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
Lol. Well, yeah -- when it comes to my own scenario, I guess you could say I lay claim to dictatorial powers over what it will and won't be. How about you? What are you working on now? Kick it over to me so I can 'fix' your OOB and stuff -- modify it as I see fit. Or are you being 'some sort of dictator'?

You can be the dictator of your own scenario. But what gives you the right to dictate to players about how they use someone else's scenario?
My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site
ColinWright
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
Lol. Well, yeah -- when it comes to my own scenario, I guess you could say I lay claim to dictatorial powers over what it will and won't be. How about you? What are you working on now? Kick it over to me so I can 'fix' your OOB and stuff -- modify it as I see fit. Or are you being 'some sort of dictator'?

You can be the dictator of your own scenario. But what gives you the right to dictate to players about how they use someone else's scenario?

How the hell am I doing that? You're the one who wants to make changes that will make it possible to do things the original designer never intended. I also don't think much of the tactic of labeling opposition to your ideas 'dictatorship.' That approach sounds pretty fascist to me, if its going to come to that.
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ColinWright
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
You tend to see wargames and scenarios as somehow necessarily reflecting reality. Witness your use of 'War in the Pacific' to 'prove' that the Japanese could have conquered Hawaii. So when you see some scenario where various categories of equipment aren't getting used, you see it as unreasonable that you can't make use of it.

I have no idea what that has to do with this issue, but, since you've raised it, note that it wasn't just "War in the Pacific", it was primarily "Pacific War", but also every wargame on that subject ever made, including one of your own playtests. And I seem to recall you swearing up and down that there were no ports or airfields on the neighboring islands, only to be proved dead wrong - and Pacific War vindicated - in the end.

Now that happens to be a complete fabrication.

Wargames are secondary sources, like most books.

I explained the distinction to you carefully at the time. There's no reason to believe you would read it now either, so I won't bother.

Back to the issue at hand. I'm finishing up a playtest of "France 1944 D-Day" as we speak. For the longest time, there have been shortages of M4/75s, while M4/76s languish in the pools. It's absurd to suggest that the Allies wouldn't have swapped out the M4/75s with M4/76s. You don't need any designer intervention to know that. I suggest we treat players as adults, since about 99% of the scenarios will never be updated.

Now there is a good example of when swap-outs would be reasonable, and indeed, they should be possible if the designer has enabled them. However, most swap-outs would tend to be unreasonable, unrealistic, and (since the original designer is no longer at hand) uncontrollable.

You are presenting an argument for designer-enabled swap-outs. You're not presenting an argument for anything else.
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Legun
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by Legun »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
I think this largely misses my point. A British infantry battalion in 1941 could not have just swapped out its 'scout carriers' for Marmon-Herrington armored cars. Equally to the point, it certainly wouldn't have. It certainly wouldn't be an improvement in OPART if it became possible to do this without the scenario designer having chosen to make it possible.

I see it just the opposite. If, in 1941, the British were flush with gobs of Marmon-Herringtons and completely out of scout carriers, they'd be fools not to put the M-Hs into the line somewhere. And that's a real issue in TOAW. It happens all the time. You find yourself desperately short of some item and flush with another that could easily substitute for it. Now, you can't do anything about it. I want to give players the option to do so. No one would be forced to use it.

You and Jarek seem to fancy yourselves as some sort of dictators. You would have the ability to constrain your own scenarios. But the vast number of existing scenarios will never be updated. They need this option.

There is a simple solution. We need 3 steps advanced game option:
- no rearment (default)
- limited rearment (the same country field is needed)
- free rearment (the same type of equipment is expected only)
What we could discuss is proficency/readiness/supply reduction.
Ralph - please, give my the composite units!
http://www.tdg.nu/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1148781589
ColinWright
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Legun

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
I think this largely misses my point. A British infantry battalion in 1941 could not have just swapped out its 'scout carriers' for Marmon-Herrington armored cars. Equally to the point, it certainly wouldn't have. It certainly wouldn't be an improvement in OPART if it became possible to do this without the scenario designer having chosen to make it possible.

I see it just the opposite. If, in 1941, the British were flush with gobs of Marmon-Herringtons and completely out of scout carriers, they'd be fools not to put the M-Hs into the line somewhere. And that's a real issue in TOAW. It happens all the time. You find yourself desperately short of some item and flush with another that could easily substitute for it. Now, you can't do anything about it. I want to give players the option to do so. No one would be forced to use it.

You and Jarek seem to fancy yourselves as some sort of dictators. You would have the ability to constrain your own scenarios. But the vast number of existing scenarios will never be updated. They need this option.

There is a simple solution. We need 3 steps advanced game option:
- no rearment (default)
- limited rearment (the same country field is needed)
- free rearment (the same type of equipment is expected only)
What we could discuss is proficency/readiness/supply reduction.

I still like my idea about a total equipment cap. It's perfect for gradual/involuntary transitions, would seem to require little programming, would impose no burden on designers or players, and wouldn't affect any existing scenario.
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Legun
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by Legun »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
I still like my idea about a total equipment cap. It's perfect for gradual/involuntary transitions, would seem to require little programming, would impose no burden on designers or players, and wouldn't affect any existing scenario.

A partial, fluent rearment of really similiar type of equipment (assault squads -> light rifle squad or PzIIIG->PzIIIH) could be nice, but I'm affraid of side effects. Let's see a panzer division. It has lost some trucks as a result of flanking (or the assault drivers problem) but her panzergrenadiers (heavy rifle squad) are saved. There is no trucks in "on hand" pool at the moment, but there is a slot for panzergrenadiers with Panzerfaust (HRS AT) in the unit's TO&E. The slot is filled up to the total equipement cap with the new grenadiers - but there is no place for trucks. You get an infantry division with supporting tanks, don't you?
Ralph - please, give my the composite units!
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Curtis Lemay
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
Now there is a good example of when swap-outs would be reasonable, and indeed, they should be possible if the designer has enabled them.

No. It should be possible regardless. The vast majority of scenarios will never be updated because the designers have moved on. It is certainly not correct to assume that we know the designer's intention was to prevent equipment upgrades - that wasn't an option for them. We should treat players as adults who will make reasonable choices - or at least give them the option to make those choices.
My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site
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Curtis Lemay
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: Legun
There is a simple solution. We need 3 steps advanced game option:
- no rearment (default)
- limited rearment (the same country field is needed)
- free rearment (the same type of equipment is expected only)

So, the players would have control of how much flexibility they wanted. That's just what I'm advocating.
What we could discuss is proficency/readiness/supply reduction.

Of course. Change equipment and the unit suffers a drop in those. More so if the equipment is from a different country.
My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site
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a white rabbit
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by a white rabbit »

ORIGINAL: a white rabbit
ORIGINAL: ColinWright

Put it this way.

My typical British rifle battalion in Seelowe:

33/36 rifle

2/2 light rifle

9/12 50 mm mortar

2/2 3 inch mortar

1/2 dual AA MG

7/10 Bren Carrier

..i didn't get the 50mm mortars and aren't you missing a few rifle AT- squads and some HMGs ?..

..other than i went for Lt rifle, with Rifle for the LMGs and made TOE divisible by 3 we basically agree..

..edit..Add to the wish-list..can we have battalions dividing into 4 please ?

..apologies, i found the 50mm mortars, parked in downtown Singapore..[8|]
..toodA, irmAb moAs'lyB 'exper'mentin'..,..beàn'tus all..?,
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a white rabbit
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by a white rabbit »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
Now there is a good example of when swap-outs would be reasonable, and indeed, they should be possible if the designer has enabled them.

No. It should be possible regardless. The vast majority of scenarios will never be updated because the designers have moved on. It is certainly not correct to assume that we know the designer's intention was to prevent equipment upgrades - that wasn't an option for them. We should treat players as adults who will make reasonable choices - or at least give them the option to make those choices.

..sorry BUT..

..like i said, from Toaw 1 there was always the "cadre" option, it even got a mention by Norm, way-back-when...

..so maybe we should treat designers like adults, and take it that if they didn't go that route they were either bog-lazy/ blind/ stupid or didn't want to use it ?

..note, not a word about ants..
..toodA, irmAb moAs'lyB 'exper'mentin'..,..beàn'tus all..?,
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a white rabbit
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by a white rabbit »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
However, as to 'why not' -- often the equipment represents something that had a purpose other than just combat, or has virtues not reflected by TOAW. Like, the 'light rifles' are pioneers -- not stormtroops. Or 'scout carriers' might not be as formidable as Dingo armored cars -- but they're a lot smaller and able to perform the multiple tasks for which they were originally designed.

If they're in the game then they're in combat units in one form or another. What difference does it make which ones? However inappropriate they are for alternate roles will be reflected in their parameters.

I think this largely misses my point. A British infantry battalion in 1941 could not have just swapped out its 'scout carriers' for Marmon-Herrington armored cars. Equally to the point, it certainly wouldn't have. It certainly wouldn't be an improvement in OPART if it became possible to do this without the scenario designer having chosen to make it possible.

..agreed..
..toodA, irmAb moAs'lyB 'exper'mentin'..,..beàn'tus all..?,
ColinWright
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
Now there is a good example of when swap-outs would be reasonable, and indeed, they should be possible if the designer has enabled them.

No. It should be possible regardless.

That proposition is so transparently absurd that I don't think it's necessary to expend energy taking it apart.
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Curtis Lemay
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: Grognerd
Geomorphic terrain types, hills, mountains, cultivated etc. use a tile set allowing them to be geomorphic.
I would like to add 2 to 3 more geomorphic sets of clear terrain with a color gradient from green to brown.
Right now we have 4 elevation terrains, clear, hills, mountain and alpine. Adding the color gradient clear tile sets would allow map makers to show elevation changes with greater detail, bringing the maps to life.
These new clear colors do not have to have any effect on movement/combat since they just show gradual elevation changes. They just are there for map aesthetics.
Most terrain maps and WWII maps use this paradigm of color gradients to show elevation changes.

Clear, hills, mountain, & alpine model differences in relief, not elevation. That's a tactical issue.
Editor functions: Don't know how terrain movement and terrain combat effects are programmed into the game, but an adjustable table in the editor would be nice to tweak scenario specific terrain movement costs and terrain combat effects.

See item 2.23.
My TOAW web site:

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ColinWright
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by ColinWright »

This has got to be on the big wish list -- but how about an optional, designer-set limit to a supply trace? In a lot of scenarios, the unlimited supply trace doesn't make much sense.
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