WitW-HKD TEA planes

[Historiker]

Because of the limitation of slots, I'll have to make compromises.
The TEA consits of Germany, Russia, Italy and Austria-Hungary - all countrys that may produce their own planes.
As I want the TEA to be Japanese, I only have 75 slots, barely enough for one of this countrys. So what to do?
I think about letting all countrys start with their own planes which may upgrade to corporate ones. I think it might be a logic solution to let most nations start with at least one obsolete plane (like the I-16) and a modern one (like the Mig-3 or the Lagg-3)
To be fair, the Allied side will have the same advantege to share their samples.

To give the the Surfce Battle Groups more importance, I think about weakening PA and FP to reduce the possibility to discover enemy ships at sea - especially as naval search is way to effective!



Intended TEA planes:
Carrier capable are marked with (CC)

At the start of the scenario (30):
F:
IAR 80
I-16
Mig-3
Lagg-3
PZL P.24
Fiat G.50
Reggiane Re 2001
Avia B.35 (Austria)
Avia B-135 (Austria)
Me 109 E (CC, maybe another one with longer range)
FB:
Me 110
Pe-3
NF:
None, maybe Me 110
DB:
Ju87 (CC)
Il-2
LB:
SB-2
Il-4
Pe-2
Pe-8
Savoia-Marchetti SM.79
Savoia-Marchetti SM.81 (maybe)
PZL 37
Do 217
Ju 88
He 111
RC:
B&V 141
TR:
Ju 52/3m
PA:
BV 138
FP:
Ar 196
He 115
CRDA Cant Z.506 (maybe)
TB:
Fi 167 (CC)

Between start of scenario and 12/1941 (2):
F:
Fw 190 A-4 (CC wide under-carriage)
PA:
BV 222

Until end 1942 (6):
F:
Fiat G.55 (maybe)
Me 109 G (CC)
AR 240 (LR Destroyer, good against 4e and for LR-CAP at sea)
NF:
Ju 88 C-6
LB:
Ju 290 A-7
TR:
Me 323

Until end 1943 (5):
F:
Me 109 Z (LR-Destroyer, perfect against Bombers and to provide CAP out at sea)
FB:
Me 109 Z (2x3cm cannon, 2000kg bombs, even more fuel than the fighter)
NF:
He 219
LB:
Ju 188
RC:
Ar 234 B-1

Until end 1944 (12)
F:
Me 163 (CC)
Me 262 (CC - the Graf Zeppelin class should be equipped with catapults. together with its under-carriage it might be fittable for carriers)
He 162 (CC Dez, maybe beginning 1945)
Ta 152 (CC)
BV 155 (High-altitude maybe - usefull against B-29 and B-17)
FW 190 D (CC maybe, there's already the Ta 152)
Me 109 K (CC see Fw 190 D)
NF:
Ta 154 (fast twin engined NF - if it's possible to solve material problems)
Me 262 (maybe)
DB:
Hs 129 B-3 (maybe - depends on how good the 7,5cm cannon works against ships and troops)
LB:
Ar 234
Ju 390

Until end 1945 (5):
F:
Do 335 (CC?)
Ho 229
DB:
Hs 132 (CC? jet)
NF:
Do 335 (CC)
LB:
Ju 287 (maybe)

in 1946


ATM 60 planes, so some slots left.

Maybe:
Fw 191 LB 4t bombs or torpedoes, 620km/h, 3600km range
Ju 288 fast LB/NF 650km/h
Ju 388 as NF/LB
Hs 130 high altitude bomber
Me 264 3t 15kkm 545km/h mid43 - LR-bomber
He 343 3t 1600km 910km/h; 45k maxalt; mid/end45
Fl 282 as carrier plane or FP for ASW missions. it was projected that 10 Fl 282 will only need the place of one usual FP!
Fa 330 autogyro as FP on subs
V1 + V2 as DB or LB in special kamikaze units



I know that it is focussed on Germany. Moreover, I guess there are new 2e bombers needed from 42 on.
Which plane may be fitted as a FF?
Any suggestions for other planes?
To spare slots, I think about makeing planes like the Ju 290 a bomber with the intention to use it as transport as well (at least for supplies).
Theres a desperate need for better TBs and DBs for carriers, as well as for a LR-F with just one engine to equip CAG with it. Is there any design of Italy, Russia or Germany that can be used for this?
Which allied or Japanese plane may be copied and modified to fit Germanys demands (that means self-sealing fuel tanks, armour protection etc. for Japenese planes)?

[Gen.Hoepner]

Are u sure the Fiat G.55 was available in 1942?? Wasn't just a prototype by that time?
Where are the Macchi 200 and 202? these should absolutely be part of the picture because were largely used both in Mediterrenean and Russian Theatre. I think also these were used during the Battle of Brit.
However.
As far as i know Italy didn't have any single engine torpedo bomber capable of being used on Carriers...
Maybe some fighter models could be used in that role with some adaptations tough...

[DuckofTindalos]

This mod has nothing to do with reality, so Historiker can do what he wants...

[Historiker]

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner
Are u sure the Fiat G.55 was available in 1942?? Wasn't just a prototype by that time?

You are right! It must not enter production before mid- or late 43.

Where are the Macchi 200 and 202? these should absolutely be part of the picture because were largely used both in Mediterrenean and Russian Theatre. I think also these were used during the Battle of Brit.

I know. My ork on this mod ist just to get the needed experience to finish it for AE. There will be more slots and the possibility to use every possible slot without any restrictions (like the actual 1-75 for Japan).
ATM, there are only 75 (or 74, I don't know whether the 75 is alread allied) slots for "Japan", so I have to limit the planes in the game. To be able doing this, the only option is letting all nations of each side share their planes. Therefore, I don't intend to have the MC.200 and MC.202 in the game as there are better planes. Maybe there are more slots in AE to allow all major TEA nations have their own planes.

ATM, the G.55 is in the game as it is a fine plane and as I don't want to limit the planes after 41 only to german ones.

As far as i know Italy didn't have any single engine torpedo bomber capable of being used on Carriers...
Maybe some fighter models could be used in that role with some adaptations tough...

Yes. Maybe one has to copy an allied plane...
I also seek a fighter with a little more range than just 3 or 4 hex.

[Historiker]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

This mod has nothing to do with reality, so Historiker can do what he wants...

Why do I always have the picture of a nagging old man in my head?

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Historiker

Because of the limitation of slots, I'll have to make compromises.
The TEA consits of Germany, Russia, Italy and Austria-Hungary - all countrys that may produce their own planes.
As I want the TEA to be Japanese, I only have 75 slots, barely enough for one of this countrys. So what to do?
I think about letting all countrys start with their own planes which may upgrade to corporate ones. I think it might be a logic solution to let most nations start with at least one obsolete plane (like the I-16) and a modern one (like the Mig-3 or the Lagg-3)
To be fair, the Allied side will have the same advantege to share their samples.

To give the the Surfce Battle Groups more importance, I think about weakening PA and FP to reduce the possibility to discover enemy ships at sea - especially as naval search is way to effective!

I still say this is the wrong platform - not being designed for this application it does not fit very well. BUT
if you want to use it

the solution to this issue is to create the flavor of these nations by using only the most important of their planes -

and letting each represent everything similar - thus "Me-109" means "German fighter" - or possibly "Axis fighter" -
and represents a number of planes.

This way names and art will fit.

Intended TEA planes:
Carrier capable are marked with (CC)

At the start of the scenario (30):
F:
IAR 80
I-16
Mig-3
Lagg-3
PZL P.24
Fiat G.50
Reggiane Re 2001
Avia B.35 (Austria)
Avia B-135 (Austria)
Me 109 E (CC, maybe another one with longer range)
FB:
Me 110
Pe-3
NF:
None, maybe Me 110
DB:
Ju87 (CC)
Il-2
LB:
SB-2
Il-4
Pe-2
Pe-8
Savoia-Marchetti SM.79
Savoia-Marchetti SM.81 (maybe)
PZL 37
Do 217
Ju 88
He 111
RC:
B&V 141
TR:
Ju 52/3m
PA:
BV 138
FP:
Ar 196
He 115
CRDA Cant Z.506 (maybe)
TB:
Fi 167 (CC)

Between start of scenario and 12/1941 (2):
F:
Fw 190 A-4 (CC wide under-carriage)
PA:
BV 222

Until end 1942 (6):
F:
Fiat G.55 (maybe)
Me 109 G (CC)
AR 240 (LR Destroyer, good against 4e and for LR-CAP at sea)
NF:
Ju 88 C-6
LB:
Ju 290 A-7
TR:
Me 323

Until end 1943 (5):
F:
Me 109 Z (LR-Destroyer, perfect against Bombers and to provide CAP out at sea)
FB:
Me 109 Z (2x3cm cannon, 2000kg bombs, even more fuel than the fighter)
NF:
He 219
LB:
Ju 188
RC:
Ar 234 B-1

Until end 1944 (12)
F:
Me 163 (CC)
Me 262 (CC - the Graf Zeppelin class should be equipped with catapults. together with its under-carriage it might be fittable for carriers)
He 162 (CC Dez, maybe beginning 1945)
Ta 152 (CC)
BV 155 (High-altitude maybe - usefull against B-29 and B-17)
FW 190 D (CC maybe, there's already the Ta 152)
Me 109 K (CC see Fw 190 D)
NF:
Ta 154 (fast twin engined NF - if it's possible to solve material problems)
Me 262 (maybe)
DB:
Hs 129 B-3 (maybe - depends on how good the 7,5cm cannon works against ships and troops)
LB:
Ar 234
Ju 390

Until end 1945 (5):
F:
Do 335 (CC?)
Ho 229
DB:
Hs 132 (CC? jet)
NF:
Do 335 (CC)
LB:
Ju 287 (maybe)

in 1946


ATM 60 planes, so some slots left.

Maybe:
Fw 191 LB 4t bombs or torpedoes, 620km/h, 3600km range
Ju 288 fast LB/NF 650km/h
Ju 388 as NF/LB
Hs 130 high altitude bomber
Me 264 3t 15kkm 545km/h mid43 - LR-bomber
He 343 3t 1600km 910km/h; 45k maxalt; mid/end45
Fl 282 as carrier plane or FP for ASW missions. it was projected that 10 Fl 282 will only need the place of one usual FP!
Fa 330 autogyro as FP on subs
V1 + V2 as DB or LB in special kamikaze units



I know that it is focussed on Germany. Moreover, I guess there are new 2e bombers needed from 42 on.
Which plane may be fitted as a FF?
Any suggestions for other planes?
To spare slots, I think about makeing planes like the Ju 290 a bomber with the intention to use it as transport as well (at least for supplies).
Theres a desperate need for better TBs and DBs for carriers, as well as for a LR-F with just one engine to equip CAG with it. Is there any design of Italy, Russia or Germany that can be used for this?
Which allied or Japanese plane may be copied and modified to fit Germanys demands (that means self-sealing fuel tanks, armour protection etc. for Japenese planes)?

[Historiker]

I still say this is the wrong platform - not being designed for this application it does not fit very well. BUT
if you want to use it

the solution to this issue is to create the flavor of these nations by using only the most important of their planes -

and letting each represent everything similar - thus "Me-109" means "German fighter" - or possibly "Axis fighter" -
and represents a number of planes.

This way names and art will fit.

I know there might be better platforms, but I don't have them, so I do this for witp.

To name the planes like "Fighter 1", "Fighter 2" doesn't leave them any soul. IRL the plans for the PzKpfw V Panther were given to the Italians in 1943 without any conditions. It was even forbidden to the companies to demand any money for the licence. This was done to eventually get competitive Italien tanks.

This is the way it can be done here - the way it must be done because of the slots and if there isn't the will to have a "Fighter 1941", "Fighter 1942", "Bomber 1941", "RC 1941"...

[el cid again]

I am not sure you understood my meaning?

Functionally you can have a "generic fighter" without resorting to using that for a name. Thus -
an Me-109 might be a "1941 fighter" - but because you call it "Me-109" it can have 109 art - and it will feel good.

You might want to use a series - DORA = 1941, EMIL = 1942 or something like that (Me 109 fans will recognize their German nickanmes).

If you do enough of this you might have slots for some planes that did not turn out to be practical - e.g. heavy bombers.

Here the Italian bomber P-108 I think - is more reasonable than the German designs (see Luftwaffe Over Amerika). Only in the 1950s were runways built big enough for the kinds of bombers Germany studied - and only then were tankers made SOP - both ideas taken from german research in the main (by both Russians and USA). But the Germans dreamed of producing only 60 bombers - and never came close to being able to do that. The more reasonable He-177 turned out to be a technical failure. But the P-108 really was possible - and could euse existing facilities in ETO.

[Historiker]

I really don't understand what you want to tell me.
The only change - if I understand what you try to tell me - is, that the planes loose their historic names and get some fictional names. I don't see any advantage in this, the planes will only seem to be fictional after that
Where's the problem in letting all Nations use a plane with the original name, may it be Me 109 or Lagg-5 or G.55? I don't see any!

[Historiker]

The planned planes ATM.
1st row, name, 2nd speed, 3rd range, 4th payload, 5th number of engines if more than 2

Yes, I know... Many of them never entered service, and some for good reasons. Others enter service too fast in my scenario than IRL. I took different dates, when IRL, the introduction was delayed because of bombed factories or lacking material in construction of engines or the plane itself. In HKD, there won't be serious ressource lackages, as long as Russia isn't conquered, as well as it'll be the opponents duty to bomb factories to delay the introduction of AC
The last 6 rows shop planes I'm still unsure about. They may be too strong.
Lots aren't a problem, yet. Even after adding all of the "maybe" planes without the V1 and V2, there'll be 4 slots free. Free to be used for "captured" carrier DBs, TBs and maybe F.
Other slots can be freeed by deleting some of the comparable planes like the Ta 152, BV 155 or Me 109 K.
To give the allies a chance against the huge amount of good german planes introduced now, there'll be plenty of possibilitys to add experimental Allied planes as well. As I intend to have Japanese planes only on carriers (their land based fight against Russia in Siberia), there be A LOT of empty slots for nice allied planes (like the B-19 [;)]).
Any suggestion for other (experimental) planes not only of Germany but of Russia and Italy as well?


41-1 km/h Reichweite Ladung Motoren
IAR 80 540 940
I-16 525 600
Mig-3 640 1250
Lagg-3 575 1000
PZL P.24 430 700
Fiat G.50 472 670
Reggiane Re 2001 542 1100
Avia B.35 (Austria) 495 500
Avia B-135 (Austria) 535 550
He 100 D 670 1000
Me 109 E (CC, maybe another one with longer range) 570 800
FB:
Me 110 560 1300 2
Pe-3 535 2140 2
NF:
None, maybe Me 110
DB:
Ju87 (CC)
Il-2 410 765
LB:
SB-2 bis 450 1600 1000 2
Il-4 410 3800 2500 2
Pe-2 536 1920 1000 2
Pe-8 438 4700 4000 4
Savoia-Marchetti SM.79 434 1990 2 Torp 3
PZL 37 460 1600 2220 3
Do 217 M-1 400 2145 4000 2
Ju 88 A-4 500 3200 3000 2
He 111 H-6 400 2400 2500 2
RC:
B&V 141 438 1900
TR:
Savoia-Marchetti SM.81 340 1500 2000 3
Ju 52/3m 290 1300 1500 3
PA:
BV 138 285 3875 600 3
FP:
Ar 196 310 1072 100
He 115 288 2785 1 Torp / 3 DC 2
CRDA Cant Z.506 (maybe) 350 2000 1200 3
FF:
Ar 196 310 1072 100
TB:
Fi 167 (CC) 325 1100 800 1
33



Between start of scenario and 12/1941 (2):
F:
Fw 190 A-3 (CC) 642 840
PA:
BV 222 257 6095 6
FP:
Ar 231 170 500 41-12
3
Until end 1942 (6):
F:
Fiat G.55 (maybe) 630 1200
Me 109 G (CC) 650 850
AR 240 (LR Destroyer, good against 4e and for LR-CAP at sea) 670 2090 2
NF:
Ju 88 C-6 494 2300 2
LB:
Ju 290 A-7 400 3100/5600 8000/1500 4
FP:
Fl 282 80 170 2x5 42-3
TR:
Me 323 250 1100 11000 6 6

Until end 1943 (5):
F:
Me 109 Z (LR-Destroyer, perfect against Bombers and to provide CAP out at sea) 710 DB/ 760 Jumo 2
FB:
Me 109 Z (2x3cm cannon, 2000kg bombs, even more fuel than the fighter) 710/760 2000 2
NF:
He 219 615 1545 2
LB:
Ju 188 525 2200/bei 1500kg 3000 2 43-2
RC:
Ar 234 B-1 43-12
5
Until end 1944 (12)
F:
Me 163 (CC) 960 40 44-1
Me 262 (CC - the Graf Zeppelin class should be equipped with catapults. together with its under-carriage it might be fittable for carriers) 870 1050 2 44-1
Ta 152 (CC) 730 1200 44-12
BV 155 (High-altitude maybe - usefull against B-29 and B-17) 690 1440 44-12
Me 109 K (CC see Fw 190 D) 715 850 44-11
NF:
Ta 154 (fast twin engined NF - if it's possible to solve material problems) 642 1850 44-6
Me 262 (maybe) 870 1050 2 44-1
DB:
Hs 129 B-3 (maybe - depends on how good the 7,5cm cannon works against ships and troops) 400 780 44-10
LB:
Ar 234 742 1556 2000 2 44-7
Ju 390 430 9700 1800 6 44-8
FF:
Me 163 FF 960 40 44-1
11
Until end 1945 (5):
F:
He 162 850 610 1 45-2
Do 335 (CC?) 765 1800 1x500;2x250 2 45-4
Ho 229 977 1000 1000 2 45-4
DB:
Hs 132 (CC? jet) 780 1120 500 1 45-7
NF:
Do 335 (CC?) 765 1800 1x500;2x250 2 45-4
LB:
Ju 287 (maybe) 650 2100 4000 45-3
He 343 910 1600 3000 45-8
7
in 1946




Maybe:
Fw 191 LB 4t bombs or torpedoes, 620km/h, 3600km range
Ju 288 fast LB/NF 650km/h
Ju 388 as NF/LB
Hs 130 high altitude bomber
Me 264 3t 15kkm 545km/h mid43 - LR-bomber
V1 + V2 as DB or LB in special kamikaze units

[Historiker]

I'm a little bit uncertain whether to add the He 100 - as it may be the nightmare for several years for the allied planes. ATM it is intended to stick to history by adding 25 of them to the pool while none are under construction.

The Ar 231 will be comparable with the Glen - so for Sub use.

The Focke-Wulf Ta 400 also seems to be a devastating bomber...