Data to insert in DB?

[Historiker]

Still open / some new questions:

1. In stock, the naval guns don't have anti-soft or anti-armor. Although, they have an effect against other ships and an effective naval bombardement. However, in RHS where effekt and penetration are compareable, I felt that bombardement was much to weak.

2. Why do guns have armour and how much should they have?

3. What is the correct weight of guns? Only the muzzle or something more?

4. How to calculate the correct cargo load of subs? In WW1, the Deutschland/U-155 was able to carry 1000t of cargo - how much should it have in the DB?

5. Can I fit usual AAA on ships as well as in land units? In the Editor X, there's a second line under the Type that says "DP gun (Naval)/(Ground) or AAA(Naval)/(Ground).

6. What happens if a CA or CL has a cargo of 2000? Will it have the capability to carry 2000 FPs then?

7. Is there any possibility to let RCs and TRs do bombing missions as well? Several TRs and LB were used in both roles.

8. What about Radars? Range is in miles, but what about Effect and Penetration?

9. Is there any difference in fighting between the types of DDs? Do DMs, DEs and DMSs perform weaker or less agressive in combat?

10. How to create CMLs?

11. What can I do to set the number of PTs and Barges that each side can create?

12. How is it possible to let CAG grow later in the game without letting them already start big?

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Historiker

I'm a little bit addled: In stock, the naval guns don't have anti-soft or anti-armor. Although, they have an effect against other ships and an effective naval bombardement. However, in RHS where effekt and penetration are compareable, I felt that bombardement was much to weak.


Why should naval guns have armour? They get their armour in their turrets, so why have they armour?


What's the load cost of naval guns? Only the weight of the muzzle or something else?

In stock the load cost of a naval gun is infinite - literally 9999 - and this is wierd in some terms. In RHS the weight is the weight in tons - derived from turret weight divided by number of tubes. This matters when the guns are used ashore - and in RHS we use the same value for a naval gun and its CD cousin - but it might matter someday - when WITP grows up and considers ship load values.

Naval guns don't always have armor - but they sometimes do. It depends on the gun. It probably matters when the CD form of the weapon is used - but it might matter in the naval case - and it is insurance - and easier to have a common standard.

Naval guns should have anti-armor and anti-soft values - and these surely are used when attacking land targets.

IF you want (I do NOT) bombardment by naval guns to be like stock or CHS you are indeed correct - RHS is "too weak." This was a complaint - the Forum calls it "nuclear bombardment" and it is also bad simulation. The value of a shell is more or less proportional to the square root of its weight - 2/3 of that for AP - and we use a common standard for shells and bombs (mortars being a special case). We had some help from a PhD in this - and others on the forum - and I myself am a student of gun ordnance to some degree - albiet mainly in its AA form I understand the principles - and was trained to call in support from a ship. We wanted a better model - and more or less reprogrammed the game to get rid of one of its problems - too effective a bombardment. We did so on a sound theoretical foundation - and it is generally popular. Nevertheless - if you actually want bombardment to take down Henderson Field (when it did not) - we got it wrong.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Historiker

Can I fit usual AAA on ships as well as in land units?
Can I use naval guns on land (as shore battery)?

No

You must have land and naval versions of the same gun - in the right slot range. Irritating - and problematical - but true.

You can cheat - but then there are consequences: mainly related to productoin, pools, etc. Weapons on land will produce and use pools - naval weapons are unrestricted in that sense. But land weapons won't participate in naval combat - which may be right for an IJA ship using land artillery or AAA - but not usually.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Historiker

Ships must be below 3000 to be Japan, 3000 or above to be Japanese.

I don't understand that.

Badly worded - 3000 or above to be Allied.

He means the ship slot number in the ship file.

This is hard code and you can not cheat.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Historiker

Both RC and TR have been used for bombing missions, too. How can I simulate this?
I guess that a RC with bombs will only be able to inflict damage when it attacks a detected ship, no?
A TR with bombs will not be able to attack as well - or it may even have a reduced load?

We must guess here - you use abbreviations not standard. RC = RCN = Reconnaissance??? TR = Xpt = Transport?

This is something of a problem and there is only one solution - use PTL. There is one case I do that - the ancient Soviet bomber - mainly used as a transport and naval patrol plane by 1941. I tell players not to base it without a large airfield - it really is not a flying boat. But that is the workaround. ANT-6 is the plane. It can transport troops or supplies, do recon, or bomb anything.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Historiker

Still open / some new questions:

1. In stock, the naval guns don't have anti-soft or anti-armor. Although, they have an effect against other ships and an effective naval bombardement. However, in RHS where effekt and penetration are compareable, I felt that bombardement was much to weak.

Most think stock is much too strong. It appears code expects anti armor to = penetration in mm at point blank range. It expects anti soft to equal weight in pounds - but I use square root of that - or square root of 2/3 of weithg for a naval gun with AP or SAP shells.

2. Why do guns have armour and how much should they have?

In case the gun is hit - it should have its armor rating. Many guns have no basic armor and should suffer accordingly. This matters for sure ashore - and often afloat. I make data consistent regardless of mounting.

3. What is the correct weight of guns? Only the muzzle or something more?

Total weight of mounting for a single. If mounted in bigger mounts, total weight of turrret divided by number of tubes for the most common turret used. This is the revolving weight of the turret. It is an RHS convention - not a stock one - and stock uses 9999.

4. How to calculate the correct cargo load of subs? In WW1, the Deutschland/U-155 was able to carry 1000t of cargo - how much should it have in the DB?


Very hard to do - even if you get it right code will mess it up in play. It is a logrithmetic scale. 4 is the minimum setting and corresponds to several tens of tons - in some reports - but less in others. A value of 1000 ton value is far too high for any u boat - U-234 and other XB minelayers were the record holders at far less. But such values might be possible - you have to test to find out what to use. Use values between 4 and about 250.

5. Can I fit usual AAA on ships as well as in land units? In the Editor X, there's a second line under the Type that says "DP gun (Naval)/(Ground) or AAA(Naval)/(Ground).

Not and have them work right. There are technical issues. But they might work in some ways.

6. What happens if a CA or CL has a cargo of 2000? Will it have the capability to carry 2000 FPs then?

No - it is the number of PLANES it carries.

7. Is there any possibility to let RCs and TRs do bombing missions as well? Several TRs and LB were used in both roles.


Only if you define the thing as Patrol - which means it will fly WITHOUT an airfield = from a 0 level airfield

8. What about Radars? Range is in miles, but what about Effect and Penetration?

Range is NOT in miles - but in thousands of yards - and only a tiny number of slots work - even now that they added a few.

9. Is there any difference in fighting between the types of DDs? Do DMs, DEs and DMSs perform weaker or less agressive in combat?

10. How to create CMLs?

Define the ship as such


11. What can I do to set the number of PTs and Barges that each side can create?


You assign them to slots - and you can use multiple ship units. R HS has three PT boats per slot - and up to 48 landing craft.

12. How is it possible to let CAG grow later in the game without letting them already start big?

CAG - Surface Action Group??? Makes no sense. But - probably you cannot - what ever you mean. Lots of problems like you are stuck with what you set exist.

[Historiker]

First of all, I want to thank you for all your patience trying to explain me everything! Thank you VERY much!

ad1
I made a test run against Palembang. I bombed it with 2 BBs and 4 CAs and the airfield was fully operational, the CLs didn't have more than 20 sys. I don't know whether you consider that historical correct - nore do I know whether this is historical correct - but after my opinion, this was far to weak! Nevertheless, you have your reasons, I'll test it to find out whether I should handle it like in RHS or like in CHS or stock.

ad2
I know - and I see the problems. When I use a usual Naval gun as shore battery, it won't have any armour, as it isn't in the turret that has its own armour defined by the ship class. So in this case, even big guns may be taken out very easily. But how do I find out what's the right armour for guns? What if a 38cm was used in 350mm turrets - won't it be too strong after adding the gun additional armour?

ad3
As you also consider the turret weight, which includes the armour, du you give them the armour of the turrets then?

ad4
Look into your books. The Deutschland (later renamed to U-155) really carrierd 1000t of cargo.

ad6
That's what I ment with "FP". So 2000 will only mean "This CL can carry 2000 Float Planes" and not that it may also carry cargo (like it's on subs).

ad7
But Patrols need water - and can only do bombing runs at night, no? So this isn't an alternative...

ad8
Thx - but what means effect and penetration?

ad9
Do you know something about that?

ad10
How? I now came to the conclusion that the only way to create a mine laying fighting ship is a DM, so atm, I designed my mine laying cruisers as DM.
I don't find CMLs in the editor!

ad11
Ähm... The Allies can "produce" PTs by using supplies. How to add this number? By using slots? Will their date of arrival only add them to the "available PT boats" pool?

ad12
I was meaning Carrier Air Groups or CVWs. What can I do to let them change to intended sizes at a certain date?

More questions:

13. Is it a problem when I remove a gun at a ship class by simply adding 0 to the "Dev#" row while I leave the old numbers in the "num", "turret", "facing", "ammo" rows?

14. What about the nation? Is it a problem when I leave the nation of a ship at "0-none"? What about nation "03-N3"?

15. What about experience? What experience should I give ship units? Was there a significant difference between Germany and GB? In the Battle of Jutland, GB scored 2,17% hits while Germany scored 3,33% - so significant more. This should mean that Germany's sailors were trained significant better, no? Moreover, AFAIK, the German optical devices were superior (Carl Zeiss Jena). This should mean a difference, too (but in XP or in accouracy of the guns?)

16. Every Carrier has a number of maximum sorties. What is relevant point for that? Can I change that somehow?

17. Germanys granades were superior to the British ones (afaik not only in WW1 but also in WW2). Shouldn't this result in higher effect and anti-armour, too?

18. Due to the language problems, I'm afraid I haven't understand how I should add light AA guns into the DB. I.e. the MG 42 had a bullet weight of 14g and a ROF of 1500/min. What should I add inot the DB there?

19. How can one calculate the maximum number of planes that a carrier can carry? Length, with and displacement know, of course...

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Historiker

First of all, I want to thank you for all your patience trying to explain me everything! Thank you VERY much!

ad1
I made a test run against Palembang. I bombed it with 2 BBs and 4 CAs and the airfield was fully operational, the CLs didn't have more than 20 sys. I don't know whether you consider that historical correct - nore do I know whether this is historical correct - but after my opinion, this was far to weak! Nevertheless, you have your reasons, I'll test it to find out whether I should handle it like in RHS or like in CHS or stock.

This is probably not the case: what you had was a damaged airfield that was less than 50 per cent damaged - so planes could fly from it - but if they did - they suffered higher attrition - and fewer flew than would have flown without the bombardment. You cannot come to a statistical conclusion with a single case: you need a MINIMUM of 30 runs to make any statistically valid conclusion. Die rolls are big in the games done by GG - and you only know one of the possible outcomes. However - 2 BB and 4 CA probably do NOT put out a medium sized airfield every time - although they won't do it any good - and will make it safer to operate near that base. 14 inch shell raids on Henderson NEVER shut it down.

ad2
I know - and I see the problems. When I use a usual Naval gun as shore battery, it won't have any armour, as it isn't in the turret that has its own armour defined by the ship class. So in this case, even big guns may be taken out very easily. But how do I find out what's the right armour for guns? What if a 38cm was used in 350mm turrets - won't it be too strong after adding the gun additional armour?

ad3
As you also consider the turret weight, which includes the armour, du you give them the armour of the turrets then?

ad4
Look into your books. The Deutschland (later renamed to U-155) really carrierd 1000t of cargo.

ad6
That's what I ment with "FP". So 2000 will only mean "This CL can carry 2000 Float Planes" and not that it may also carry cargo (like it's on subs).

ad7
But Patrols need water - and can only do bombing runs at night, no? So this isn't an alternative...

ad8
Thx - but what means effect and penetration?

ad9
Do you know something about that?

ad10
How? I now came to the conclusion that the only way to create a mine laying fighting ship is a DM, so atm, I designed my mine laying cruisers as DM.
I don't find CMLs in the editor!

ad11
Ähm... The Allies can "produce" PTs by using supplies. How to add this number? By using slots? Will their date of arrival only add them to the "available PT boats" pool?

ad12
I was meaning Carrier Air Groups or CVWs. What can I do to let them change to intended sizes at a certain date?

More questions:

13. Is it a problem when I remove a gun at a ship class by simply adding 0 to the "Dev#" row while I leave the old numbers in the "num", "turret", "facing", "ammo" rows?

14. What about the nation? Is it a problem when I leave the nation of a ship at "0-none"? What about nation "03-N3"?

15. What about experience? What experience should I give ship units? Was there a significant difference between Germany and GB? In the Battle of Jutland, GB scored 2,17% hits while Germany scored 3,33% - so significant more. This should mean that Germany's sailors were trained significant better, no? Moreover, AFAIK, the German optical devices were superior (Carl Zeiss Jena). This should mean a difference, too (but in XP or in accouracy of the guns?)

16. Every Carrier has a number of maximum sorties. What is relevant point for that? Can I change that somehow?

17. Germanys granades were superior to the British ones (afaik not only in WW1 but also in WW2). Shouldn't this result in higher effect and anti-armour, too?

18. Due to the language problems, I'm afraid I haven't understand how I should add light AA guns into the DB. I.e. the MG 42 had a bullet weight of 14g and a ROF of 1500/min. What should I add inot the DB there?

19. How can one calculate the maximum number of planes that a carrier can carry? Length, with and displacement know, of course...

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Historiker

First of all, I want to thank you for all your patience trying to explain me everything! Thank you VERY much!

ad1
I made a test run against Palembang. I bombed it with 2 BBs and 4 CAs and the airfield was fully operational, the CLs didn't have more than 20 sys. I don't know whether you consider that historical correct - nore do I know whether this is historical correct - but after my opinion, this was far to weak! Nevertheless, you have your reasons, I'll test it to find out whether I should handle it like in RHS or like in CHS or stock.

ad2
I know - and I see the problems. When I use a usual Naval gun as shore battery, it won't have any armour, as it isn't in the turret that has its own armour defined by the ship class. So in this case, even big guns may be taken out very easily. But how do I find out what's the right armour for guns? What if a 38cm was used in 350mm turrets - won't it be too strong after adding the gun additional armour?

It does not seem to work that way. Apparently you get turret armor in naval combat and gun aromr in land combat.

ad3
As you also consider the turret weight, which includes the armour, du you give them the armour of the turrets then?

Yep = "revolving weight" in naval parlance

ad4
Look into your books. The Deutschland (later renamed to U-155) really carrierd 1000t of cargo.

I understand - you are talking about a wierd vessel - a submarine merchant ship - the only one in history - and she made only one voyage. No one ever put it in a game - but it might be cool. I forget why she was never used once the war began - her trip (to NYC) was made BEFORE the war in 1938.

ad6
That's what I ment with "FP". So 2000 will only mean "This CL can carry 2000 Float Planes" and not that it may also carry cargo (like it's on subs).

except that also means the planes won't fly - any value over 96 is suspect - and over 100 something for sure means the planes become cargo

ad7
But Patrols need water - and can only do bombing runs at night, no? So this isn't an alternative...

Not generally. I use it in a single case - for an obsolete plane that will be replaced - and tell players to insure it has a real air base. Since it WAS a naval patrol bomber (if not a flying boat) basing on water is part of the package. The other option is to call it a bomber. A bomber DOES transport supplies.


ad8
Thx - but what means effect and penetration?

You do know we cannot read the code? Or that if we could, we would not understand it difinitively? ["After a year I thougth I understood this routine. Yesterday I found a branch that changes everything."] But - in that contect - penetration modified by die roll is compared with armor of the target - and if less than the armor - the shell does little or no damage. Effect is modified by die roll to tell you what damage is done - if you DO penetrate.


ad9
Do you know something about that?

DEs are MORE effective in ASW combat than DDs. DDs are MORE effective in ASW combat than PCs. Probably other Dx type vessels either = DD (or else PC) in ASW combat. It is possible DDs are more effective in AA combat - but not very likely. There are NO true TBs in the game - but RHS uses DD to simulate them.

ad10
How? I now came to the conclusion that the only way to create a mine laying fighting ship is a DM, so atm, I designed my mine laying cruisers as DM.
I don't find CMLs in the editor!

It was posted in the Forum that CLs will lay mines. This does not appear to be the case - so you may have it right.

ad11
Ähm... The Allies can "produce" PTs by using supplies. How to add this number? By using slots? Will their date of arrival only add them to the "available PT boats" pool?


No. The Allies simply get PTs that are in their production schedule early. It may consume supplies - but if the PT boats are not there - they won't come. PT boats also respawn if lost - probably 90 days later.

ad12
I was meaning Carrier Air Groups or CVWs. What can I do to let them change to intended sizes at a certain date?

You cannot - except that there are hard coded cases you can exploit - for Hyuga and Chitose. But you can give players carrier qualified anc carrier capable air units to put on them - IF you assign them to a carrier that NEVER appears (date wise) in your game AND IF you give that same unit a date of appearence. Also - you may not overfill such a carrier. I developed this trick to defeat carrier resizing issues - these units NEVER resize either.

More questions:

13. Is it a problem when I remove a gun at a ship class by simply adding 0 to the "Dev#" row while I leave the old numbers in the "num", "turret", "facing", "ammo" rows?

Yes - probably. It drives error checkers nuts - and the guys who write them probably know something. It also likely wastes code execution time in error trapping

14. What about the nation? Is it a problem when I leave the nation of a ship at "0-none"? What about nation "03-N3"?


Big time - it crashes the program when called.

15. What about experience? What experience should I give ship units? Was there a significant difference between Germany and GB? In the Battle of Jutland, GB scored 2,17% hits while Germany scored 3,33% - so significant more. This should mean that Germany's sailors were trained significant better, no? Moreover, AFAIK, the German optical devices were superior (Carl Zeiss Jena). This should mean a difference, too (but in XP or in accouracy of the guns?)

Difficult subject - complex. But the RN spent lots of time at sea and was far more experienced.

16. Every Carrier has a number of maximum sorties. What is relevant point for that? Can I change that somehow?

Sure you can. It is a great way to "cheat" - and create "superman" counters. I don't do that. This is related to the amount of fuel and munitions on board. A good carrier generates about 10 sortees for every plane - and not all can do that. Carrier captains worry about two things - fuel for the ship and avgas/weapons for the planes. IRL you cannot do what gamers do - "go over there" UNLESS you figured that out WEEKS ago - you would not have a tanker in position to replenish the carrier. Mess with this number and your ships wont' need tankers.


17. Germanys granades were superior to the British ones (afaik not only in WW1 but also in WW2). Shouldn't this result in higher effect and anti-armour, too?

Grenades are not anti tank weapons - even when they supposedly are AT grenades. But in this system - anti armor value is the maximum penetration in mm of ANY weapon in the unit. No other value is used. Here the British have something very superior to the Germans for most of the war - the PIAT.

18. Due to the language problems, I'm afraid I haven't understand how I should add light AA guns into the DB. I.e. the MG 42 had a bullet weight of 14g and a ROF of 1500/min. What should I add inot the DB there?

Due to the limits of the game- ALL .30 class weapons should be simply 1 - nothing fancy. All .50 class weapons should be 2. These are effect values. For accuracy - divide ROF by 10. But note that LMGs are NOT separate weapons - thus the superb British LMGs ONLY appear INSIDE squads - same for SMGs. Only an MMG is separate - and only in RHS. Everyone else does not even use MMGs. or small mortars for that matter.


19. How can one calculate the maximum number of planes that a carrier can carry? Length, with and displacement know, of course...

Joe and I decided to go with hanger capacity - because there is no way to lose planes on deck if you put them there- and it is not fair to let them ride risk free. We also use historical capacity - you don't calculate it - you look it up. For a fictional carrier - adopt a real carrier hanger capacity for a ship of the same size. Players will always use too many planes if they can - attention here is a good idea. It is very common to over rate carrier capacity - and IRL ships usually do not carrier their capacity either. A problem is that capacity changes as planes get bigger. I address this by making capacity go down when the ship upgrades. The later upgrade is assumed to use bigger planes available later.

[Historiker]

The Deutschland was launched in 1916 and made two (sic!) traiding runs to the US, delivering dyes, medicaments, etc. while it took caochouc (348t), nickel (341t) and tin (93t) with it. It is said that this fed the germand needs for this ressources for several months.
It also made a second run which took hundreds of tons of rare ressources and silver with it. A planned thrid run was cancelled after the US entered the war.

There was also a sistership, but it disappeard on its maiden tour to the US without any trace...

[Historiker]

ad7:
How can PAs do usual bombing runs like LBs?

ad 9+10:
So I can hope, that both Aux. Cruisers as well as usual CLs that carry mines and so are classified as DM will do at least a fair surface combat?

ad11:
Do they simply have to be in the DB, or do they also have to have specific dates and locations when and where they arrive (but then they'll arrive like usual ships, no?)

ad12:
Is it also possible to put more than 4 CAGs (all with just one plane) on a CV at the beginning with the order to players to remove several of them in the first round?
I need the possibility to simulate the change of carried FPs when changing to helicopters...

ad15:
But why didn't it perform that impressive, then? [;)] Anyway, what are good numbers to start with?

ad16:
Did you understand what I asked for? I understand what "max sorties" means, but I wonder how I can change this number by changing something in the DB. As not all planes have the same "max sorties", it must depend on something - but on what and can I change that?

ad17:
I was meaning the grenades that are used by naval guns - and this were defenitly superior to the British in WW1 (afaik also in WW2). This, as well as the barrel length isn't inflicted in the DB, when one simply uses the shell weight and the caliber to calculate anti-soft and anti-armour.

ad18:
The MG 34 and the MG 42 were used in AA role on German ships, so I want them in the game as well. Thx for the answer.

ad19:
difficult, but ok...