Question about maps

[benpark]

I realize that a full blown map editor is a tough thing to do with this engine. That said, I seem to have seen talk of a limited version, where it would be possible to move trees and models around to different locations. Would it also be possible to change the underlying ground bitmap (taking into account that roads stay where they are etc)?

Anyone on the dev. team able to supply some more info on what is possible without heavy duty 3d modeling skills?

Also, how any maps available where there are fairly built up urban areas?

[Erik Rutins]

Ok, the "scene editor" which is what you are talking about is a fairly primitive and difficult tool to use. We're providing it "as is" and plan to do a proper map editor/generator in a future release. The scene editor does allow you to move around terrain pieces and add/delete them (trees, houses, etc.). It doesn't allow you to change the underlying mesh that determines the shape of the map. It does allow you to "repaint" the terrain map.

Again though, we are not promoting this as we really have had no time to make it user-friendly, so while it's there it's hard for me to really claim it as a feature. I would much rather tout the other tools which are much friendlier and easier to use and focus on a proper map editor in the future.

There are village/town type maps but no city maps becuase we don't feel we've added all the rules necessary for a true city fight. That would also be something to do in a future release, perhaps one focused on the Stalingrad campaign (an ideal time to add fully destructible terrain/building support).

Regards,

- Erik

[junk2drive]

My understanding is that the maps were hand drawn. I assume that means pixel by pixel with height.

I do believe the above ground elements could be moved around. The underlying terrain is fixed I think. IOW woods terrain is still effecting LOS and movement even without the tree graphics.

There are villages and industrial areas but not what you might call urban for a big city battle.

Edit: Whoops, Eric beat me. Anything he said is correct. I might be incorrect.

[Stridor]

ORIGINAL: benpark

I realize that a full blown map editor is a tough thing to do with this engine. That said, I seem to have seen talk of a limited version, where it would be possible to move trees and models around to different locations. Would it also be possible to change the underlying ground bitmap (taking into account that roads stay where they are etc)?

Anyone on the dev. team able to supply some more info on what is possible without heavy duty 3d modeling skills?

Also, how any maps available where there are fairly built up urban areas?

The terrain textures are either bitmaps or dds files and you are welcome to edit them as you see fit.

In answer to your second question it depends on how you define built up. The maps were designed in mind to simulate the terrain around Kharkov 1942 which is semi rural rather than urban or semi urban. Having said that there are some semi urban largish village maps with factories etc.

Just don't expect Stalingrad.

Some of the ancillary development team (and I suspect many advanced modders) have access to the tools required to make full maps and I wouldn't be surprised if after release there are some released more along the lines you are thinking about.

[Staggerwing]

There are village/town type maps but no city maps becuase we don't feel we've added all the rules necessary for a true city fight. That would also be something to do in a future release, perhaps one focused on the Stalingrad campaign (an ideal time to add fully destructible terrain/building support).

Regards,

- Erik

Does that mean that the next iteration will also be Ostfront? I was selfishly hoping
that the next one would be set in a drier locale.

*daydreams* Mark four Specials vs Valentines vs M14/41s...

[junk2drive]

There has been quite a bit of discussion about the 1k x 1k maps here and at other sites.
 
Mad Russian pointed out in a post at the blitz that most tank battles in WWII were at less than 400m.
 
I replied:
 
In addition to MR's comments about 1k maps, the graphic and calc requirements for high unit play and visuals are tough enough on mid range systems because of relative spotting and poly counts. If/when larger maps become available you will need a high end computer to play battles with a couple of companies of tanks and a battalion of infantry.
 
Hope this helps you all to understand the current situation and someone will correct me if I am wrong.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: Staggerwing
*daydreams* Mark four Specials vs Valentines vs M14/41s...

By the way, we have both the Valentine (Lend Lease) and the "Mark IV Special" in Kharkov and in fact there's a scenario where forces including those tanks do face off (Push for the Bereka).

[junk2drive]

Someone with graphic talent could mod the skins of those two tanks and the snow into desert types. Then use a Winter Storm map and remove the trees and structures. Viola, North Afrika. But your Brits would still be Soviets.

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: Staggerwing

There are village/town type maps but no city maps becuase we don't feel we've added all the rules necessary for a true city fight. That would also be something to do in a future release, perhaps one focused on the Stalingrad campaign (an ideal time to add fully destructible terrain/building support).

Regards,

- Erik

Does that mean that the next iteration will also be Ostfront? I was selfishly hoping
that the next one would be set in a drier locale.

*daydreams* Mark four Specials vs Valentines vs M14/41s...

I was hoping for the rainy weather along the coast of Normandy myself. Or a forest called Ardennes, but then there's the Reichswald, oh and don't forget a forest called Huertgen....all places with more moisture than the locale you were thinking of.

But you know crocodile flamethrowing tanks can dry a locale out for you.....[&o]

Good Hunting.

MR

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: junk2drive
Someone with graphic talent could mod the skins of those two tanks and the snow into desert types. Then use a Winter Storm map and remove the trees and structures. Viola, North Afrika. But your Brits would still be Soviets.

Awhile back in an experiment I did strip the trees off the map with the balka and made a map for a Halfaya Pass and a Tobruk scenario. 88mm vs Matildas and M13/40s vs Matildas. I think I used the T-26 model for my M13/40 model.

Unfortunately only one side can give Bound orders. So German vs Brit one side plays like Sovs.

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: Mobius

ORIGINAL: junk2drive
Someone with graphic talent could mod the skins of those two tanks and the snow into desert types. Then use a Winter Storm map and remove the trees and structures. Viola, North Afrika. But your Brits would still be Soviets.

Awhile back in an experiment I did strip the trees off the map with the balka and made a map for a Halfaya Pass and a Tobruk scenario. 88mm vs Matildas and M13/40s vs Matildas. I think I used the T-26 model for my M13/40 model.

Unfortunately only one side can give Bound orders. So German vs Brit one side plays like Sovs.

How long does it take to strip a map and make another one?

Can you play PC head to head? I thought it was only PBEM or vs the AI.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
How long does it take to strip a map and make another one?

Every tree is just a data tag in a rather large xml file. You just text it in and delete everything with a tree label on it. But I wanted to keep a couple of houses and some bushes. But I couldn't tell which was which so by a process of elimination I finally found the right ones to keep.

[junk2drive]

Mobius and I also messed around with Japanese tanks and Char B1 bis. Multi guns didn't work right.

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: junk2drive
Multi guns didn't work right.

Which is the exact same problem CM had.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Erik Rutins]

Yeah, right now tanks with multiple turrets would not work very well. Getting them working is not a major problem though.

There is no "hotseat" play option right now, but there is a good WEGO PBEM system that does two files/phases per exchange (and in the future maybe TCP/IP as well).

Regards,

- Erik

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: Mobius
Every tree is just a data tag in a rather large xml file. You just text it in and delete everything with a tree label on it. But I wanted to keep a couple of houses and some bushes. But I couldn't tell which was which so by a process of elimination I finally found the right ones to keep.

Ah, you were editing the map XML instead of using the Scene Editor. That's probably faster for just stripping a map, but in the Scene Editor you do actually get to see exactly what you're working on.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
I was hoping for the rainy weather along the coast of Normandy myself. Or a forest called Ardennes, but then there's the Reichswald, oh and don't forget a forest called Huertgen....all places with more moisture than the locale you were thinking of.

Yeah, that's more or less what I'm thinking about too - all in due time. First there's Kharkov and I'm excited to see what the community will be able to do with all the new tools and units we're providing along with this release.

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: Mobius

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
How long does it take to strip a map and make another one?

Every tree is just a data tag in a rather large xml file. You just text it in and delete everything with a tree label on it. But I wanted to keep a couple of houses and some bushes. But I couldn't tell which was which so by a process of elimination I finally found the right ones to keep.

I just spent 2 months doing a single map from the area around Prokhorovka for a single scenario. So I'm not easily deterred when it comes to making the map. IMO, a good scenario starts with a good map.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Mraah]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Ok, the "scene editor" which is what you are talking about is a fairly primitive and difficult tool to use. We're providing it "as is" and plan to do a proper map editor/generator in a future release. The scene editor does allow you to move around terrain pieces and add/delete them (trees, houses, etc.). It doesn't allow you to change the underlying mesh that determines the shape of the map. It does allow you to "repaint" the terrain map.

- Erik

You know, it sounds like the user can create an infinite amount of maps and hopefully save and use them for the random campaign generator ... yes?

Also, it sounds like a random map generator is one step away. If you can take a totally featureless map, add the 3D objects and apply a percentage chance for that object to appear, save the map, then load it into the scenario editor, place the unit types, voila?

Additionally, you can have the editor first deploy the units to the terrain that appeared and then secondly deploy to locations which had the terrain removed.

Just a thought and I know it's not a truely random map, but considering we'll have over 20 maps with different underlying mesh variaties it seems the possiblities are infinite!

It's like playing Squad Leader when you took that forest or field overlay and placed it on top of the terrain.

Rob
Edit note : When are you guys going to shoot the engineer and get on with production?

[Erik Rutins]

This is true, if you only want to work with the existing meshes then it would easier to take the existing Scene Editor, improve it and create a XML-based random map generator. It's still more work than you might realize though.

What we'd like to do, for the next release, is a true map editor that also allows mesh adjustments and is also much more user-friendly than the Scene Editor (which is our internal tool and as such pretty rough). In a sense, this is like building a new 3D modeling application so it's not a minor task but we've figured out how we would do it, so it's just a matter of development time and testing.

Regards,

- Erik