Defense against Japanese Subs

[coach3play4]

My air patrols of Noumea are successful in spotting subs operating a few hexs offshore. I'm sending sc's, and DD TF's out to the hexes, along with plenty of land based aircraft on Naval ops. I know historically its hard to get a sub, and I guess I'm more familiar with Uboat activity of the US coast (where one can read about good success against spotted subs).
I'm having no success -and my sc's are getting shot up.
Any game tactics to share here!

[FAdmiral]

I'm having the same problem. Many sightings of subs but they
don't seem to be getting attacked by the planes. I had 1 instance where it said "probable sub sinking" in 2 months of
play. There is no ship command that will lets me send a DD group
out to attack them either.

JIM BERG, SR.

[juliet7bravo]

Try chasing them down with your DM's and dropping mines on or around them. Just make sure you feed them a steady supply of SC's to keep them from killing your DM's.

Sounds stupid I know, but after losing 12 SC's, 4 DD's (4-6 more DD's damaged severely and sent back to Pearl) I was desperate.

SC's are only useful as "Sub Chow", and I've never seen an AC attack a sub yet on either side. USN DD's only redeeming trait is they can sometimes evade a sub attack or survive the first torpedo hit, SC's never. Only IJN subs I've sunk has been with mines or guns.

Other hand...I've only had one USN sub survive an attack by IJN ASW ship (even a PC), andit sunk trying to get it back to base. Minute I see the "Type 95 DC" message I can bet it's all over with.

[Erik Rutins]

We're looking at this, but let me say now that my experience differs. Perhaps it's just that I've had a larger sampling of the various scenarios and situations than most folks who just bought the game, but I've had my share of successful SCs and DDs sink IJN subs and my share of S-Boats get away from escorts.

A lot of this comes down (for the subs) to where you use them. S-boats in shallow waters is pretty much a dead S-boat once detected by a capable ASW TF.

To attack subs, I set a squadron of Catalinas on ASW patrol, then make a TF of SCs or SCs and DDs. I don't send them out until I've trained them up, which usually takes the first month or so (getting them up to around 40 night exp is key). A Surface Combat TF of these set to Patrol, React and assigned to the hex where my Catalinas spotted a sub will generally get some good shots in. As time goes on and my surviving SCs and DDs gain more experience, sub casualties rise.

Regards,

- Erik

[FAdmiral]

Thanks guys, this info is really helpful. I have already submitted
a revision for the sub routine. I would like to see the subs listed
as one of 3 depths: surface,shallow (periscope depth) or deep.
This would help alot to know how the sub was reacting to attacks.
And yes, if it indeed was in shallow water, it could NOT go deep
and evade attacks easily. Also depth charges should show as
little cans dropping on the subs & exploding in a puff of black
smoke rather than the water spout as it would look on the surface.

JIM BERG, SR.

[juliet7bravo]

I'm to the point I just move all the SC's to Noumea to use as IJN sub feed, and use the "S" boats strictly as minelayers in areas controlled by enemy air like the approaches to Gilli Gilli or in The Slot. I haven't had much luck "training up" SC's or DD's by parking them offshore...I've even tried sending along a replenish TF to give them more station time. I don't neccessarily think the SC's should be sinking the subs, but they shouldn't be dying like flies either.

"S" boats getting killed I don't really have a beef with, it's only in comparison to the survivability/kill rate of the IJN subs where it looks "odd". You're also right, while some of them are getting killed in open water, some get whacked in places they definitely shouldn't be. I've also had Gato class subs sunk/damaged in open water, at just about the same rate as the "S" boats BTW.

[Jagger2002]

I know subs were very hard to sink. I think the US lost somewhere between 5-6 subs total in the SW Pacific from 42-43.

However the US subs apparantly accomplished very little during 42. One problem apparantly was the ultra cautious US sub commanders. I am not a WWII sub warfare expert but I have read that deep submergence torpedo attacks based on sonar contacts were common. Night attacks were frowned upon. It sounds as if US sub commanders simply didn't know how to use their subs and were unwilling to risk them to achieve results.

Another problem was the unreliable US sub torpedo with a bad firing pin. I don't believe this problem was solved until late 43.

It seems that the modeling of sub destruction is correct. It is very hard to kill a sub. What seems to be off is the efficiency of the US subs in killing ships.

I looked at the US sub commanders and crews in May 42. They are very highly rated both for experience of crews as well as initiative/leadership of commanders. Would it help to reduce these numbers way down to cut the efficiency of subs?

I can't tell if torpedos reflect their unreliability or not. If not, poor torpedos would reduce the efficiency of subs also.

Subs weren't killed in large numbers. I don't know if this is due to sub commanders unwilling to put their subs in harms way or poor Jap ASW doctrine. Perhaps if they had put them at risk, the losses would have been substantially higher and justify UV reflecting the greater potential losses.

That my two cents worth of shaky opinion from left field.

[FAdmiral]

After reading some of these posts, I sent my SCs out to fight
the Jap subs around Noumea. They got picked off like fish in a barrel by the subs. Lost around 6 in 3 days. All of a sudden,
the subs were gone, refueling I guess. I wasn't sure how to
handle the area when luck prevailed. A large I-boat hit a mine
up around Guadacanal where I had layed plenty of them.....
IDEA (lightbulb) I mined the area around upper Noumea where
the subs were hanging out. Low and behold, when they returned
3 of them hit mines & sank. Haven't been bothered with them there since. I am beginning to absolutely LOVE the mines in this
game. 2 very large Carrier Task Forces were coming down the
slot towards Guadacanal about a week or so later. They started hitting mines right & left. 2 days later, they too were gone....
Headed back to Truk, I suppose !!!!!

JIM BERG, SR.

[JohnK]

Originally posted by FAdmiral
I am beginning to absolutely LOVE the mines in this
game. 2 very large Carrier Task Forces were coming down the
slot towards Guadacanal about a week or so later. They started hitting mines right & left. 2 days later, they too were gone....
Headed back to Truk, I suppose !!!!!

JIM BERG, SR.

That's a SEVERE realism problem, if true. I haven't even bothered trying to lay mines outside of coastal hexes...I assumed that you shouldn't be able to.

Water depth drops off VERY quickly once you get away from the coasts/reefs in this game map; it's not the North Sea or anything. You can't lay mines in water several thousand feet deep.

It's great to see mines included as they were a crucial but often-overlooked aspect of WWII. But mines should NOT be sinking carrriers or ships going down the center of the slot; it's even questionable whether a bombardment TF at Lunga or whatever should even hit a mine; I believe Ironbottom Sound was far too deep for them.

[coach3play4]

[I still think there is a bit of a problem in the game with the handling of defense against subs.

1) Deep water mines can not be the answer - and the subs off Noumea are in deep water.
2)While i moght buy my sc's getting beat up, I've got task force after task force of reasonable DD's also getting beat. Not many subs took on multiple DD's and lived to tell about it.

3) By definition, the subs have been spotted by airpatrols. Subs could not survive a long patrol in an area where they are constantly spotted by aircraft. Again, i 'm more familiar with U-boat history, but it can't be that much different in the SP if the sub is spotted. I thionk the combat table needs to tilt more to the DD, or land based aircraft when the sub is spotted.

[vils]

..and not a single airplane has ever attacked an enemy sub, and only on 1 or 2 events did my destroyers acually try to attack, but with no result.

This is a bug in the game, planes really should attack. Catalinas were very successful in attacking Uboats in the atlantic, and there were the waters much darker, and weather were much worse, thus harder to spot subs..

[Ron Saueracker]

I'm a bug in your ear!:D

[mogami]

Greetings, In all my games there is plenty of ASW both ship and air. Air attacks on subs occur every time a ASW plane spots a sub. Only attacks that result in damage are reported (sometimes the report is that the ASW aircraft has been damaged by the subs AA-I had a IJN sub at L'ville shoot down a B-26) I have lost 2 subs to air attacks Many subs killed by ship ASW (but pay attention to every detail.) Night ratings and number of depth charges (not every DD has depth charges) Since I use little 3 ship TF on ASW (2x3ship TF better then 1X6 ship TF) I look for good ship captains (I don't use Admirals for supply TF or ASW TF)

[Philbill1]

I am doing very similar to you. Remember that in the initial part of the game your antisub TF's are so inexperienced they dont even know where their own depth charges are stored:D .Also when they are this inexperienced they will die quickly as well.
Phil

[vils]

Originally posted by Mogami
Greetings, In all my games there is plenty of ASW both ship and air. Air attacks on subs occur every time a ASW plane spots a sub. Only attacks that result in damage are reported (sometimes the report is that the ASW aircraft has been damaged by the subs AA-I had a IJN sub at L'ville shoot down a B-26) I have lost 2 subs to air attacks Many subs killed by ship ASW (but pay attention to every detail.) Night ratings and number of depth charges (not every DD has depth charges) Since I use little 3 ship TF on ASW (2x3ship TF better then 1X6 ship TF) I look for good ship captains (I don't use Admirals for supply TF or ASW TF)

Hmm, are we playing the same game here???

[daft]

I've played this game for quite a few hours now and I have never, ever seen one of my a/c attack a sub. The ASW TF's I send out get shot to pieces, including a 4 DD 2 SC TF after a three week shakedown cruise.

[mogami]

Hi, I've had 2 subs damaged by air in the last 2 days.
If you see reports "aircraft spot ship ss" it means you attacked but sub dived if you see "aircraft spot sub I-27" it means you attacked but did no damage. after 4-6 months aircraft will start reqularly hitting/sinking subs.

[juliet7bravo]

I started a new scenario, and immediately pulled all the low experience DD/PG/SC's out and started parking them offshore for "training". It does work, and they do sloooooowly gain experience. It sucks, it's tedious, it's a royal pain, but it works just as Erik said...

Keys for successful (or at least not getting sunk) ASW appear (so far) to be;

(1) Lower altitude for aircraft on "ASW" missions. I'm using 3000 feet, but don't know if that's optimal yet.

(2) Don't even bother using low experience ships for ASW till their experience ratings are at least 35 for night. You're just throwing ships away otherwise.

(3) Check your DD's...some of them don't have DC's early in the war. Obviously, don't use them for ASW

(4) 3 ship TF's with an AGRESSIVE commander. I'm using 1 DD with 2 SC's mostly, again don't know if that's optimal. The SC's can refuel from the DD, which gives you more time at sea.

(5) Monitor the stats of all new arrivals, if they have low exp. ratings, put them into the training program

(6) Defensive mining where possible around your fleet bases and choke points. It works especially well in the "gaps" between islands in The Slot just west of Lunga/Tulagi as that's where the IJN subs travel to/from their patrol areas. Numea, the IJN subs often hug the west coast and you can also mine the channel opening to the north.

(7) Put all those medium bomber groups that aren't really in range of anything useful on ASW @ 50%. Helps to at least locate the enemy subs so your TF's can avoid them, and they gain experience without getting chewed up or ground down. I use the Bostons/Hudsons strictly for ASW work in the rear areas.

Figure on not having any (or few) really capable ASW escorts until August '42 or later. It takes that long to train them and then get the system damage you incurred during training repaired.

You CAN see the difference in the "sinking reports" BTW, in shallow water you are MUCH more likely to have them sank/badly damaged while engaging with gunfire...which goes along with why I was getting my own subs whacked on a regular basis, and also one reason the SC's are getting their little popgun armed butts kicked. If the SC's don't have the experience to find the sub first, and then sink it with its limited number of DC's, then it's well and truly screwed in a surface gun action. If you look at the map, then load the game as the opposing side, you'll see that almost all the subs you located via air are in shallow water...rarely see or locate all the ones out in the open sea unless they attack something.

I suspect the IJN's apparent superiority in sub killing ability is due to the overall experience edge the IJN starts with over the USN. There really should be a separate ASW rating for each ship based on its type/equipment/overall experience. As far as I can tell, if a ship has DC's mounted, it's really the crew experience that kills the sub, not any real differences in the ships ASW capability, unless they fight a surface action where a sub can "outgun" most light ASW ships.

Bottomline...while I think there's room for improvement in the ASW routines, it's not broken or even really badly bent.