CMx1 vs PCK

[junk2drive]

What PCK does NOT have:

Weather effects (falling rain, snow, fog)
Variable visiblity
Ammo or infantry counts
Infantry crawling toward their death
Tanks retreating upon sight of enemy ubertanks
Destructable buildings
Bomb craters

What PCK does have:

Better smoke effects
Infantry smoke
Easier vehicle plotting
Some order delay but not the annoying type of CMBB (IMO)
Multi story buildings
No borg spotting
Planes that work

More as I think of them.

[Staggerwing]

Destructable buildings

It's been a little while since i last played but I don't remember this in CM.

[jamespcrowley]

ORIGINAL: Staggerwing

Destructable buildings

It's been a little while since i last played but I don't remember this in CM.

CMx1 certainly has destructible buildings.

It also has much larger maps (5sq Km), dust, flame weapons, barbed -wire, bunkers, pill-boxes and higher level HQs.

However, I am sure the PC series will eventually have all of those things and more. Hopefully, it will move in the direction that CMx2 didn't (for me, anyway)

The huge number of additions in PCK have certainly made this a definite purchase for me, most especially the random battle generator and the removal of the 15 turn defender bonus.

I have high hopes for the PC series [:)]

[Grell]

Well said James,
I agree entirely.[:)]

Regards,

Grell

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: James Crowley
bunkers, pill-boxes and higher level HQs.

PCK has some little log bunkers. Just for an infantry unit. None with AT guns however.

I've seen some higher level HQ squads in CM but I can't recall their function. They do not seem to control anything that needs their existance.

[Erik Rutins]

FYI, Kharkov does support bunkers, barbed wire and tank traps, but we didn't make much use of them based on our historical research. It would be pretty easy to add them to any of the existing maps though.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: junk2drive
Variable visiblity

I should also note that we do have support for visibility changes, but it's currently associated with the map. So some of our winter maps have lower visibility set and have a bit of a light winter fog/snow dust look, another takes place at dawn and has lower lighting and visibility. Since these are currently set by map, it's correct to say that it's not truly variable, but it also isn't totally absent. In the future, we plan to support dynamic weather and visibility effects independent of the map.

Regards,

- Erik

[junk2drive]

Higher HQs can give bonus to troops IIRC and can spot for on map indirect fire if in command radius. Too fiddly for me [:-]
 
PCK any CO unit can spot arty, within the guidelines of the manual. And no 40 turn delays for the Soviets [:D]

[rickier65]

ORIGINAL: James Crowley

CMx1 certainly has destructible buildings.

It also has much larger maps (5sq Km), dust, flame weapons, barbed -wire, bunkers, pill-boxes and higher level HQs.

However, I am sure the PC series will eventually have all of those things and more. Hopefully, it will move in the direction that CMx2 didn't (for me, anyway)

The huge number of additions in PCK have certainly made this a definite purchase for me, most especially the random battle generator and the removal of the 15 turn defender bonus.

I have high hopes for the PC series [:)]

This is pretty much where I am right now. I passed on PC:OWS, but it looks like enough features have been added to PCK to make it worth a gamble, as well as an investment in the future of the series so that even more feature can be added in future releases.

Rick

[junk2drive]

RE: flame weapons and barbed wire
 
The flamers are cute to watch but in CM I rarely am able to get my flamethrower teams to survive. Flame tanks seem to be hard to use and have to be in close.
 
Barbed wire is mostly an annoyance to me in CM. "IF" you could remove or breach it with engineers or tanks in CM I might think differently.

[Erik Rutins]

Some folks have also asked about AFV reactions. AFVs in Panzer Command don't auto-retreat like they sometimes do in CM. However, you can issue a "Withdraw" reaction and a "Withdraw" platoon order, so you have two chances per turn to pull their fat out of the fire if you think they're in a bad spot.

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: junk2drive
What PCK does NOT have:
Ammo or infantry counts

Actually I think this should go into what PCK does have. And that is No ammo and infantry counts.
As you mentioned CM out of HQ command range only limits some sort of bonus. It doesn't seem to limit the HQ unit knowing the exact ammo or infantry count. This information is somehow getting passed on to the HQ beyond range. To be realistic all information like this of the out of command range units should be unknown.

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
Some folks have also asked about AFV reactions. AFVs in Panzer Command don't auto-retreat like they sometimes do in CM. However, you can issue a "Withdraw" reaction and a "Withdraw" platoon order, so you have two chances per turn to pull their fat out of the fire if you think they're in a bad spot.

We have auto-retreat in PCK. But not to a fresh platoon. It happens after the platoon has a morale failure. That comes after losses of one or more units of the platoon. Then the AFVs may retreat on their own or infantry will leg its way out of their situation.

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

What PCK does NOT have:

Weather effects (falling rain, snow, fog)
Variable visiblity
Ammo or infantry counts
Infantry crawling toward their death
Tanks retreating upon sight of enemy ubertanks
Destructable buildings
Bomb craters

What PCK does have:

Better smoke effects
Infantry smoke
Easier vehicle plotting
Some order delay but not the annoying type of CMBB (IMO)
Multi story buildings
No borg spotting
Planes that work

More as I think of them.

I see quite a bit of difference. I may know the CM editor as well or better than anyone. Seems like all I've done for the past 5 years is be in the CM editor. Either with my scenarios or other peoples.

I have just played the tutorial so I'm by no means an expert on PC.

Here is what differences I see just from the tutorial.


Way more information about the forces you control in CM. From where they are going, to what they are doing, to what is happening to them.
1) One of my tanks was hit and not repairable. I found that information in the end of game listing. Not during game play. I was unaware that 2 of my tanks had been hit. I destroyed all the Russian tanks. When I would check one of my tanks it would show me the targeting line but not what was targeted. I had to go and actually check each tanks target to see what it was. Very time consuming.
2) The plethoria of setting for CM isn't here. Where you can show the covered arcs, the movement orders for every single unit on the map, the detailed hit information...all seemingly missing from PC.
3) No elements information. The weather just seems to be what it is. The tutorial didn't have any mission information as well.
4) Map information. Where exactly is the flag? I don't see it on the main map just what I think it is on the small map. Not a good trade off at all.
5) I have no idea what part of the turn I'm in. The phases are confusing and there is no clock to tell where I'm at. That would go away as you play the game I'm sure. As a CM player it was like being lost in the fog.

PC has the ability to do more tactical moves with less effort While I could do overwatch in CM I had to set it up. In PC it's right there for you in the bound movement order.

CM had terrain affected by combat. Buildings would in fact blow up creating a dust cloud. Fire of any kind, including vehicles, would set the map on fire as well. From buildings to trees and crops could all burn and catch fire from events in the game.

Seems so far like all the vehicles that die in PC blow up. In CM you had the death clock. A vehicle wouldn't show being dead for a time. The side firing at the dead vehicle wouldn't necessarily know when that was.

PC vehicles burn for just a bit. Then the smoke and fire subsides. That doesn't happen in CM.

The tank fights seem a bit scripted in PC. At no point did the Russian tanks try to disengage. They just sat there and were killed one after the other. While CM takes some heat for tanks reversing out of combat that is actually a historically documented behavior. For some reason men want to keep on living.

There doesn't seem to be anywhere to tell what ammo loads my tanks have. Or how much they have left. That too is a bit unsettling.

Artillery is handled completely different by the two games. Both approaches have their merits and drawbacks IMO. A single over simplified delay for an entire nations forces in PC to an extensive over complicated system for each weapons type in CM. Where in CM anyone can spot to PC having only leaders with contact to the FO being able to spot....widely different approaches to the same end.

These are just some very basic observations and the first attempt to kick the tires of PC. I understand that Kharkov may well take into account many of these differences. Some of which aren't bad.

My mouse seemed over sensitive and I had a hard time moving around on the map but there are surely controls that can help that.

For me as a scenario designer the BIG issue is not being able to make maps. CM is light years ahead with a fully operational map editor. That of course isn't evident in the tutorial..and may also be corrected in the upcoming Kharkov game.

Overall the first impression was very favorable.

Good Hunting.

MR

[jamespcrowley]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

FYI, Kharkov does support bunkers, barbed wire and tank traps, but we didn't make much use of them based on our historical research. It would be pretty easy to add them to any of the existing maps though.

That's interesting. How could they be added and would that perhaps be useful for the random battle/campaign generators, in sectors where they did appear historically?

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: Mobius

ORIGINAL: James Crowley
bunkers, pill-boxes and higher level HQs.

I've seen some higher level HQ squads in CM but I can't recall their function. They do not seem to control anything that needs their existance.

There is no chain of command in CM. Leadership is done at platoon level only. The higher commanders are there to affect any and all situations that may need an extra leader. They do not affect only the troops in their direct command. A company commander in CM has exactly the same amount of influence on other company units as he does his own.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: Mobius

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
Some folks have also asked about AFV reactions. AFVs in Panzer Command don't auto-retreat like they sometimes do in CM. However, you can issue a "Withdraw" reaction and a "Withdraw" platoon order, so you have two chances per turn to pull their fat out of the fire if you think they're in a bad spot.

We have auto-retreat in PCK. But not to a fresh platoon. It happens after the platoon has a morale failure. That comes after losses of one or more units of the platoon. Then the AFVs may retreat on their own or infantry will leg its way out of their situation.

There are plenty of recorded instances where entire battles were stopped after the attacker lost a couple of tanks. Even at long range.

In the tutorial a Russian tank platoon sat in place while I killed every tank they had. Not much a of a morale issue there among them. I would have expected to see them at least try to disengage.

This assumes of course that the tutorial is a fully functional scenario.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Some folks have also asked about AFV reactions. AFVs in Panzer Command don't auto-retreat like they sometimes do in CM. However, you can issue a "Withdraw" reaction and a "Withdraw" platoon order, so you have two chances per turn to pull their fat out of the fire if you think they're in a bad spot.

For human players yes....but what about the scenarios where you are playing the AI?

Good Hunting.

MR

[Stridor]

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

ORIGINAL: Mobius

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
Some folks have also asked about AFV reactions. AFVs in Panzer Command don't auto-retreat like they sometimes do in CM. However, you can issue a "Withdraw" reaction and a "Withdraw" platoon order, so you have two chances per turn to pull their fat out of the fire if you think they're in a bad spot.

We have auto-retreat in PCK. But not to a fresh platoon. It happens after the platoon has a morale failure. That comes after losses of one or more units of the platoon. Then the AFVs may retreat on their own or infantry will leg its way out of their situation.

There are plenty of recorded instances where entire battles were stopped after the attacker lost a couple of tanks. Even at long range.

In the tutorial a Russian tank platoon sat in place while I killed every tank they had. Not much a of a morale issue there among them. I would have expected to see them at least try to disengage.

This assumes of course that the tutorial is a fully functional scenario.

Good Hunting.

MR

Both the enemy and your own forces can and do withdraw if they fail their moral check. At least it happens to me all the time! Their moral is influenced by many factors including but not limited to their experience and their current losses.

This has been tweaked somewhat in PCK (c/w PCOWS).

Perhaps that last Russian Tanker was full of Valor Vodka and rolled a 10?

[Prince of Eckmühl]

ORIGINAL: Stridor

Both the enemy and your own forces can and do withdraw if they fail their moral check.

Perhaps that last Russian Tanker was full of Valor Vodka and rolled a 10?

Seen this happen on numerous occasions.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)