Supply sink issue

[el cid again]

[quote]ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Cid,

Sorry but your solution which suggests:

.b) basing the defence on where the GAME MECHANISM OF SUPPLY SINKS sucks supplies ( instead of where the historically and strategically logical defensive lines were/should be )

are just making excuses for a flawed game mechanic. Calling something a "feature" when it creates completely ahistorical and unreasonable behaviour ( abandoning Singapore because KL is a stronger defensive feature due to the mechanism of supply sinks ) simply doesn't cut it.


Cid, this isn't about the consumption of supply ( in this example ) as much as it is about the pooling of supplies at KL in preference to Singapore in a completely ahistoric and game unbalancing manner ( as goodboyladdie says, players routinely lose Singapore much earlier than they should because of this problem ).


[quote].

REPLY: I do understand the problem of pooling supply. This will be more under player control in AE and WITP II -- where you have hex by hex player controls. BECAUSE I do understand this, I recoded Singapore NOT to let supplies leave. BUT IT ONLY matters IF you - a player - are sending supplies TO Singapore. I do - so it works for me. I do NOT abandon Malaya or the Philippines - in one game a friend of long standing in Seattle may hold Luzon for over a year - and maybe until relieved a la War Plan Orange. I have yet to make Singapore hold for 100 days vs a human - but I can make it hold for twice that long vs AI - and we are getting closer to "they must fight for it". Indeed - the KL supply sink is a big obsticle in the path of the invader - if you use it right.

Now the part about the resistence is in the wrong place is not generally true: only if you read the map too literally. The supply/economic model is semi abstract - and I have gone a long way down the road of "add locations, put what is really there in those locations" - to make it less abstract. But even so, a "resource center" is a gathering point for all adjacent hexes - 2500 square miles each - and since we cannot put a dot in every hex - we end up with major resource concentrations in some hexes. IF you think about this as "the entire area that must be controlled and which generates the resources" - the ability to take control of a major resource area is something that requires a lot of troops - and if you do not you won't control it.

But the model itself equates all resources. So Iron Ore or any other heavy thing - even gravel for cement - produces "high density" resource centers. It is correct modeling to let tons be the unit of measurement - for one thing they require that to be moved - but it produces the abstract effect that a lighter resource seems to be less well defended.

I do NOT really like the supply sink compromise in the sense that I think it is silly to have to eat supplies which should never have been there in the fist place. IF I owned Matrix we would fix this at the code level - for WITP. But that is not up to me IRL. I like the effect of supply sinks in defense in the sense that I don't think you should be able to walk into KL and take it with a squad - but I don't like that you need a division and finesse to do it either. But the basic idea that it SHOULD be a challenge is not wrong.

This is not just "coolies" - this is an organized logistical network - inherently flexable and resourceful - led by people who don't want to hand this stuff over. The laborers always are useful as porters - but they are also useful in a technical sense - Japan made captured Allied solders fix telephones - name it. And until captured - they use their skills even more willingly to oppose takeover. The original WITP system permits a tiny fragment of a unit to take any hex - regardless of the police force - which in fact was organized for area control in thesea reas. The PNP was able to field proper companies and battalions - and was organized to wrest control of Mindinao from the Morrors - fighting campaigns led by US officers and sergeants - to begin with. Colonial regimes in other territories were even more organized along these lines - the Dutch in particular were set up to have para military control in areas which were hostile to begin with - never mind when the Japanese got there. Do not think of these people as entirely passive or without skills. On New Guinea the numbers were small - but their effectiveness was often near total.

[goodboyladdie]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

I have found some slots available in all RHS scenarios = something to work with.

I have devised a scheme and tested a prototype version of it - and I may have a solution.

Like many RHS concepts - this requires massive manpower work on my part.

Like most radical RHS ideas (not just implementations of existing ideas) - it is semi-experimental
and might not turn out to be perfect. It is only a way to address a specific issue - and unitl
tested extensively it is not clear that it will be perfect. In most cases, all you can get is
a reasonable compromise.

Since many ongoing games are not generating complaints - including five human tests I am running -
I am disinclined to do this UNLESS there is a willingness to be positive about it by the few who
are really unhappy. I am not going to work unpaid just to be insulted - directly or indirectly.

In this instance I have enough slots to create a sink in all the towns of Malaya - Alor Star and
Georgetown already have them and they seem not to be a problem - so we can move resources from
KL to places like Taiping - and create small sinks in places like Kota Bahru - which has resources
but no sink - and instead of using a big sink to compensate for most - let the little ones do it.
We always knew that would be better - but it requires a lot of work to enter each possible site -
for each location involves changing two slots - and then there are not enough slots to do this map wide.
But there are enough for a critical territory like this one.

Will the small units have less draw Sid? If they are too small to pull supply out of an HQ/aircraft heavy Singapore it has got some potential and I thank you for your time. I have in the past offered to make a contribution towards your costs as I am well aware how much of your time you give up for this. I would still be willing to do so. As far as respect goes, you have done more than enough to earn the respect of everyone who reads these pages, but I never get a proper answer from you unless I push for one. I would never have got pissed off if I had got the sort of answers you posted later in your rather dismissive first post. The number of hits this thread is getting and the comments I am seeing here and in my AAR lead me to believe that more than a few people are unhappy with this situation. I am genuinely sorry you feel insulted, but I have done enough reading of old threads to have seen how often you inadvertently (and I am convinced it is not deliberate - like a lot of busy clever people you just do not notice) offend people without feeling the need to apologise. If you removed the supply sinks from Malaya and some DEI positions would it make your life easier and still be a solution? My real fear is for the Japanese players who take on a lot running the RHS economy. If their replacement supply sink units turn up in Tokyo if they fail to take a hex in time it will throw away all the hard work they have done. I would rather they got free supply for a couple of years than have their economy de-railed and not be able to put up the best fight possible.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: goodboyladdie

ORIGINAL: .

I understand why you introduced the sinks and appreciate that you have done a lot of work to create as clean an economic model as possible. What you have managed to do within the constraints of the code is truly amazing. I find your assertion that the "AI" defence of withdrawing to the Fortress of Singapore instead of choosing to fight where I can be outflanked just because there are a lot of non combatants there that cannot move insulting and bizarre. It also seems to be against the principle of making RHS as accurate as possible. I do not care about the free supply, if that is why you think I am complaining. I do care about the fact that I cannot use the proper tactic of a collapsing defence falling back onto my strongest, most well prepared position. I do care that my opponent will have to invest a lot of effort and likely ruin some of his units to wipe out these massive defensive beasts that did not exist.

.

Thanks for the even handed evaluation and kind words (where used).

I think part of your frustration is excessive: lots of technical things in the game are not quite perfect - games are simplifications of reality after all - and I myself DO collapse the defense back onto Singapore - and it works just fine for me. But the dividends come only if you don't do so too fast: make him pay for every position - not every dot location - every hex. AFTER KL falls THEN supply DOES collect at Singapore - and ALL THE WHILE you should send supply TO Singapore EVERY DAY. That it keeps supply better than it once did matters not UNLESS you are sending supplies there. And this is a lot like IRL - the British sent supplies and units there too long - probably - but certainly they did not send ships just to evacuate - or send nothing. I find the big deals are the high tech stuff - airplanes and ships - and I make a major effort to get them forward.. I also find I need to rotate the ground units - fresh ones replace demoralized ones - in a never ending cycle (well - it ends - and at the end I try to evacuate some of the best of them).

In any case I have managed to cure this problem - for Malaya - but I need some hours to implement it for all scenarios. It probably is a problem in other places - e.g. if Nemo invades India he will have a big problem with Asanol. But I find in OB work that it was a bit like that IRL - many US units actually organized there.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: goodboyladdie

.Making Malaya resource poor would only harm the Japanese player as the Allies do not tend to own it long enough to matter. Singapore aside I think these units will do more harm to my opponent than me. He will have to commit much larger forces than IRL to deal with them without chewing the offensive power out of his best formations. How can this serve the game? If I hold on too long and he gets the equivalent Japanese supply sink turn up in Tokyo to drain the supply from his factories instead, how can that be fair?

The question I ask is do certain supply sinks do more harm than good? Any identified (KL and some in the DEI spring to mind) could be removed, so the excess supply is only a local issue. Those in the US or the Home Islands for instance are likely to be no problem.

You are correct: the big sinks are a problem for Japan - not the Allies. If you learn to use them - they help the Allies be stronger. Sit on a supply sink - and it is not quite as bad as stock or CHS - but you will suck supplies from the resource center - and to the degree there are not enough - the sink will suffer along with the line troops - and srhink - eating less - leaving more for the troops. UNTIL the enemy engers the hex he does not stop it generating supplies.

The excess supplies is a big deal - although I admit a professional bias here. Gamers don't get it - but the saying is "amateurs talk strategy and tactics, professionals talk logistics." WITP makes no sense to me UNLESS you must fight for resources, oil, and move in supplies and fuel. I do not like the idea of free supplies with a passion impossible to exaggerate - THAT is the game killer IMHO. I would not play the game until the awful map and this matter were addressed. And what was awful about the map was not the art - it was they didn't have things where they are/should be. Thus the heart of Luzon - Baguio City - in a resource sense - is not coded at all in stock, CHS, name it (but IS in Empires Ablaze because it is RHS based). I do not undertand a military problem outside the context of where supplies etc are.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Mistmatz

As I already mentioned in gbl's AAR I have a feeling that you guys want something that you see but that doesn't really belong to you.
You look at the supplies in KL, see say 50k supplies and think 'whoa I need this in Singapore... NOW'. Then you find out that you cant get it there (easily) and start complaining about those 50k supplies that are all of a sudden game breaking, spoiling your experience and what not.
Maybe it would help you getting along with this concept/feature/bug if you would mentally deduct say 40k of the supplies you see in KL for the locals which are not useable in a military way and think of the remaining stuff as yours.

I'm not a native speaker and sometimes have a hard time expressing what I'd like to express, so I try it in other words. Just dont take all the numbers and stuff you see in the game as given to your full control, sometimes it may be even misleading (eg showing supplies you dont own), try to get a reasonable view on things. This is btw not only valid for a mod, this is valid for the whole game. Long term this may spare you a heart attack. [;)]

Well expressed - and in English well expressed. The supplies you see should not have been there to begin with - they are generated every day by resource centers which should be generating resoruces - and only SOME of them are imported. IF you send supply to Singapore - it will tend to leave slower than it should - because of a trick we use to slow it down. And IF you send HQ to Singapore - also air units - they will increase the "required" field giving it more "votes" with the code routing routine. In the end supply sinks get rid of some (not all) of the supply that should not be there to begin with - and you should NOT think of those points as available for military forces.

The problem is - the sink looks like a military unit - creastes "required" field values of its own - and THAT DOES mean some supply flows to it. IF there is any to send. The less that exists other places, the less that gets sucked.

And I may have fixed this - lets see.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: goodboyladdie

ORIGINAL: Mistmatz

As I already mentioned in gbl's AAR I have a feeling that you guys want something that you see but that doesn't really belong to you.
You look at the supplies in KL, see say 50k supplies and think 'whoa I need this in Singapore... NOW'. Then you find out that you cant get it there (easily) and start complaining about those 50k supplies that are all of a sudden game breaking, spoiling your experience and what not.
Maybe it would help you getting along with this concept/feature/bug if you would mentally deduct say 40k of the supplies you see in KL for the locals which are not useable in a military way and think of the remaining stuff as yours.

I'm not a native speaker and sometimes have a hard time expressing what I'd like to express, so I try it in other words. Just dont take all the numbers and stuff you see in the game as given to your full control, sometimes it may be even misleading (eg showing supplies you dont own), try to get a reasonable view on things. This is btw not only valid for a mod, this is valid for the whole game. Long term this may spare you a heart attack. [;)]

These supplies started in Singapore. I have spent 2 weeks taking them there. Last turn KL stole them from Singapore. I do own those supplies which is why it's so annoying. I would love to be able to rationalise the loss of these supplies along the lines you suggest and have done so to cover certain other plane related issues in my AAR, but my defence plan centres on Singapore and not on the large imaginary fortress unit in KL. I am having an ahistorical, militarily poor plan forced upon me by poor game mechanics and these units that should not exist. In the DEI my opponent will have to face similar made up units after being disrupted by landing on hostile shores. I do not envy him.

Here is a trick: do you know that construction eats supply? 1000 points per item per day.. When I want to not consume supplies in a place I turn off construction. Also repair. To the degree you do not do this - YOU are sucking your own supply. In Japan - if you don't learn this - you won't run the economy. Also on US West Coast early in the game. You cannot succeed doing what AI does - build everything all the time.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

I'm still learning to play WitP. I have my first PBEM game (CHS 158c Nik Mod) reach 2/43. Thus, being an Allied player able to conduct offensive operations against a human opponent will be a learning curve (hopefully not too steep [:D]).

My question that seems to have been posted vaguely here, is how to get as much of the supply at KL back to Singapore?? If there is a way to do so, I want to know as I'm doing the first turn for the Allied in RHSEEO (PBEM against Dice).

Tricks I use:

1) Base air transport on a resource hex and FLY the supplies from there to where you want them. KL and Palembang are in range of Singapore.

2) Use ships to move supplies to a point of concentration. IRL - and in every game I play myself - every day ships arrive with supply. If you don't do this - you can consume more than you have - and you end up in a siege situation.

3) HQ demand supply - and this is more true in RHS because HQ also are bigger. Move HQ to Singapore. Keep them there.

4) Units demand supply. If your troops need to be forward - air units do not - and if based on a big air base they are more effective. Put air units on Singapore - and do what you can to keep it operational as a base: defend it with AA, fighters, off site fighters flying long range CAP - kill enemy air units at their bases - whatever you can do .

If you have not started - wait a few hours. I have a way to mitigate these issues and will release when data entered.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Mistmatz

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

I'm still learning to play WitP. I have my first PBEM game (CHS 158c Nik Mod) reach 2/43. Thus, being an Allied player able to conduct offensive operations against a human opponent will be a learning curve (hopefully not too steep [:D]).

My question that seems to have been posted vaguely here, is how to get as much of the supply at KL back to Singapore?? If there is a way to do so, I want to know as I'm doing the first turn for the Allied in RHSEEO (PBEM against Dice).

Simply put move all units spending supplies out of KL. In addition you can move them by ship or air. By ship is very dangerous once the japanese have a foothold and place DBs in Malay. By air is time consuming and you probably want to evac important units with those planes rather than setting up a supply route. So basically I have written off those supplies right at the start. Once KL has fallen or is no longer connected to Singapore you may bring supplies in safely from elsewhere.

This ends correctly: once the sink falls it will not suck in any case - and Singapore then is the only sucker around that matters.

I do the opposite from this advice though - except that the air unit part may be right: base your air units (OTHER than transport) on singapore - not KL. But ground units SHOULD be at KL - and will give you more of its supplies if you do that - while the sink will suffer if there is ashortage - equally with the troops - but as it shrinks - your proportion of supplies used by units goes up. Also - a sink won't resist well or long alone - but combined with troops - it provides them support and they provide the hex firepower- it can be hard to take. And the idea that a major industrial area provides support for military operations IS correct - or more right than wrong. You get NO support in an uninhabited desert or jungle - but lots of it where there are people - more where there are major functional industries.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: goodboyladdie

ORIGINAL: Mistmatz

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

I'm still learning to play WitP. I have my first PBEM game (CHS 158c Nik Mod) reach 2/43. Thus, being an Allied player able to conduct offensive operations against a human opponent will be a learning curve (hopefully not too steep [:D]).

My question that seems to have been posted vaguely here, is how to get as much of the supply at KL back to Singapore?? If there is a way to do so, I want to know as I'm doing the first turn for the Allied in RHSEEO (PBEM against Dice).

Simply put move all units spending supplies out of KL. In addition you can move them by ship or air. By ship is very dangerous once the japanese have a foothold and place DBs in Malay. By air is time consuming and you probably want to evac important units with those planes rather than setting up a supply route. So basically I have written off those supplies right at the start. Once KL has fallen or is no longer connected to Singapore you may bring supplies in safely from elsewhere.

You can't. You can try to increase the draw of Singapore by making it aircraft and HQ heavy, but nothing has the draw of the 2 units in KL that you cannot move, particularly once they start fighting. I am using Singapore as an offensive airbase and flying a lot of sorties, but I still cannot compete. I was alright until the Japs arrived in KL. Up to that point KL only had about 20000 supply. Once the Japs arrived KL drew an extra 40,000+ from Singapore. If I send ships to pick it up the game will just send it back...

While the game teleports resources and oil - instantly - in fantastic quantities - supply is different - and it is not unlimited or instant. You don't have as much control as you will in AE - but you do get to control "votes" by where you put things. It is true that the supplies will leave too fast in the conditions described - but not all of them - and not instantly in one turn. Pwhex codes Singapore as a road - and that slows down fuel and suppy sucking big time - something like a factor of 5.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: Mistmatz

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

I'm still learning to play WitP. I have my first PBEM game (CHS 158c Nik Mod) reach 2/43. Thus, being an Allied player able to conduct offensive operations against a human opponent will be a learning curve (hopefully not too steep [:D]).

My question that seems to have been posted vaguely here, is how to get as much of the supply at KL back to Singapore?? If there is a way to do so, I want to know as I'm doing the first turn for the Allied in RHSEEO (PBEM against Dice).

Simply put move all units spending supplies out of KL. In addition you can move them by ship or air. By ship is very dangerous once the japanese have a foothold and place DBs in Malay. By air is time consuming and you probably want to evac important units with those planes rather than setting up a supply route. So basically I have written off those supplies right at the start. Once KL has fallen or is no longer connected to Singapore you may bring supplies in safely from elsewhere.

I know you mean well but your advice is simply wrong. Pulling units out of KL has virtually no effect because the supply sink is so much larger than the rest, and it can not be moved. Saying you write off those supplies means you have decided to get along with the problem, which is your choice.

It is not an historical restraint, it is caused by a bad side-effect of the supply sink. Sid stated that the supply sink at KL is fed by production at KL, so there is no IRL rationale for the supplies to moved from Singapore to KL. They were not needed to feed the populace of KL, the supplies were in Singapore specifically for an expected siege. They move in-game because of the game's logistics mechanism, which has been in place and unchanged during the whole life-cycle of RHS. Use of that supply sink simply fails to respect the game code's behavior.

Modding is an art of compromises. we do not have the option to separate the way code behaves with respect to this and that - we get the whole package.

But at its heart the system is that code moves RESOURCES from a resource center to a place like Singapore - and supplies FROM such a place to wherever they are needed. The problem is that the supply sink itself is a pseudo military unit - the code does not "know" it is not a miliary unit - that it should only eat supplies there. Indeed - the supplies should not be there to begin with - and the sink should not be needed to eat them either. In my view not eathing them is plain wrong.

Now IF you have ANOTHER way to get rid of those supplies - THEN you may have a better idea than the supply sink concept. It has certainly been my worst compromise - requireing endless work to implement and more to correct - and it will never be as good as a proper design or code change would be. But NOT eating the supplies is not respecting the way the game should work - needs to work - and will evenutally work (now Matrix has addressed it - but unfortunately not for this edition).

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: el cid again

I find your language far more negative and offensive than any I have used - and I regularly get email saying my restraint under fire approaches saintly quality. On the other hand - in this last - I ALSO hear some respect - and so I will try to help you understand - again.

Sid, I have seen you behave with great restraint under wanton insult and abuse. For that you are to be commended.

I have also, on very many occasions, seen you be openly insulting, condescending and dismissive of people who express reasonable disagreements with you. As you are doing in this very conversation. Respect is one of those things you must give to receive.

You might disagree with GBL's opinions, but I suggest that you give his concerns a fair and respectful hearing.

One of us is indeed not listening: I have done so - and I may have a solution. On to implementation.

Communication is a difficult art - it is hugely dependent on both ends of the conversation. If you hear insuts from me - you are putting them there - because with very rare exceptions - I don't try to be insulting - on principle. Indeed, look at the introduction to RHS in the Manual. We have principles stated as such.

[el cid again]

Revised scenarios for Level 7 were all uploaded as a comprehensive update. Included is a small amount of ship and ship spotter unit eratta. Also included are additional ships for RHSEBO and related air attachments.

I did review Palembang and found no trace of a problem - places like Georgetown fall with a bigger supply sink - every time - in one attack - without disrupting the attackers.

This set was done mainly because it is a minor improvement - and as a courtesy for those who don't want to change without it.
It came at the expense of most of the reserve in slots in the Allied area - but since there is not much need to add Allied land units -
it is an acceptable price to pay now - at the end of development of WITP I.

[Buck Beach]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

ORIGINAL: witpqs


Sid, I have seen you behave with great restraint under wanton insult and abuse. For that you are to be commended.

I have also, on very many occasions, seen you be openly insulting, condescending and dismissive of people who express reasonable disagreements with you. As you are doing in this very conversation. Respect is one of those things you must give to receive.

You might disagree with GBL's opinions, but I suggest that you give his concerns a fair and respectful hearing.

One of us is indeed not listening: I have done so - and I may have a solution. On to implementation.

Communication is a difficult art - it is hugely dependent on both ends of the conversation. If you hear insuts from me - you are putting them there - because with very rare exceptions - I don't try to be insulting - on principle. Indeed, look at the introduction to RHS in the Manual. We have principles stated as such.

Witpqs is not imagining things here. Openly insulting, almost never, but very frequently condescending and dismissive. Your patiences is mostly demonstrated in your explanations and not your receptiveness.

Still, I do also respect your labor of love, knowledge and dedication.