RHSEBO: Updated - and expanded to ALL scenarios

[el cid again]

There is something to some of this:

the vaunted Walther engine never did work - even in USA, UK or USSR after decades of work [RN put two small subs in service - one was wreaked by engine fire and the other converted to prevent it - these beign training devices - not warships; Soviet Navy allegedly put some early Romeos to sea with one on one shaft - but after similar fires - went back to all diesels; USN never did get it to work well enough to field - but did get about three times the performance the Germans did - all ended up with nuclear propulsion]

yet the Walther had led to mass production of a hull - and it had to be fielded in a different form - we know it as the Type XXI - a modified design without walther engines

Which hull was also a failure - probably dangerously uncontrollable - done without proper testing - they just rationalized the "fish like form must be good" - and turns out - it is not.

The same thing happened in other fields - and German ideas ended up being invested in heavily post war. They came up with planes too big for any airfield in ETO - and had to use air refueling - never operational in Germany - but WE ended up building such big fields AND getting the refueling working - so did the Russians - and for that matter the Brits. But we and the Russians wasted more than 2 billion 1950 vintage dollars (20 billioin today) in EACH of three different nuclear aircraft or missile propulsion projects - and except for a device to power a deep space vehicle - we never got anything for it. But it sounded good - and both Germany and Japan went for nuclear powered aircraft and missile research big time - this is mostly surpressed - but declassified MAGIC intercepts show a lively trade in things like beryllium, zircon, and uranium. Zircon - invented in Germany - used by almost every nuclear reactor in the world in all programs - is a good example of a technology that worked - that we copied - but we never admit we got it from the "minimal" German reactor program "that never got anything working." Yet you cannot take a class in reactor technology and not learn about the material - they just don't tell you where it came from - or when - and everyone assumes we made it. It is an alloy and it has properties that last years under intense neutron bombardment.

The German's did have a problem with the Navy development: Raeder was assurred there would be no need to fight before 1948 - and of course that led to longer term investment than would have otherwise been the case. But the ideas were wrong: heavy surface raiders no less. Close to silly - it would be better to fit ancient guns on merchant ships - which actually did work but didn't cost much.

[el cid again]

Extensive review has caused me to detect some eratta - and this will be incorporated in an update 7.793

Meanwhile back at the ranch I have devised a possible solution to a supply problem in Malaya -

so I will take today to fold it into all scenarios - and release 7.793 as a comprehensive later today - for ALL scenarios

no longer just EBO

[mikemike]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Prinz Eugen had fabulous guns - and if the ship had hybred steam diesel propulsion - it would have had long range. She beat up Prince of Wales - not bad for a CA - and had not only radar but superior sonar. It worked at high speed - something unheard of in that era - and could detect out in convergence zones- and became the basis of USN submarine sonar. [See Submarines Since WWII - UNSI - with a photograph of her sonar around the sail of a US fleet boat - it surrounds the sail]

Prinz Eugen was certainly fine strictly as a weapons system - I mean sensors, effectors, and C&C. It fell short of the mark as a ship. Just compare it to to the French CA Algerie - what had the Prinz to show for almost 50% more displacement? A slightly higher top speed, practically the same armament, certainly no better range, and actually worse protection. So what went wrong? The published USN opinion of the Prinz after they'd had a look at it was rather negative ("a yacht, not a warship"), and the Soviet navy decided against completing the Petropavlovsk/Lützow postwar because among other things they thought that the hull was excessively vulnerable to underwater damage - and what happened to Blücher certainly bears that out.

As to a COSAD plant - I think that was not a good idea at the time - perhaps never. At the technology level available in 1936 at least, the power/weight ratio of Diesels was too bad, they'd use up too much space/weight. The "Kreuzer M" CLs, with such a combined plant, came out oversized for their armament/protection.

[el cid again]

It is quite true that a hybred propulsion system has a cost in displacement - and that is true of the all electric US plants as well. They had technical and combat damage benefits - but they were neither cheap nor small. But the power required for cruising is so small compared to full speed it is practical to go either with separate plants - or with an electric plant (you just run a smaller number of steam generators when crujising and always use the same motors - but perhaps fewer of them coupled to the shaft(s)).

Prinze Eugen may appear to have "practically the same armament" but it had autoloading guns - these fire about 3 times more often in practical terms - and that also has a price in weigh/volume - but is well worth it. The Prinz could beat up any cruiser until the Des Moines came along post war - and the Des Moines class ship USS Newport News holds the all time heavy shellfire record - made in Vietnam.

Another thing you don't "see" when looking at reference books is the damage control system - which is STILL superior - except for a few automated merchant ships. This ship did not depend on sailors to shut watertight doors, but did it under centralized control from Damage Control Central. On a ship that size there is usually someone who is late - and often someone who never shut his door - so this matters. [We studied her in a USN Damage Control School in the 1960s because no other warship EVER was in her league prior to that time DC wise]
There were other features - and again they have a cost in terms of volume. German ships and machines are often very intricately made - and this case showed unusuall attention to lots of kinds of detail. She also survived a US atomic bomb test - and again we study that even today becuase she was exceptional in her protection scheme. But I was lucky to be exposed to both these exoteric aspects of protection in her case - and you will not find it in the reference books - so I am not surprised it is not a factor in most evaluations.

I always build em in a game situation - and if they actually fight - it is always like when she really did fight - even a battleship gets hurt by teh many incoming 8 inch shells - radar aimed.

[mikemike]

ORIGINAL: el cid again


Prinze Eugen may appear to have "practically the same armament" but it had autoloading guns - these fire about 3 times more often in practical terms ...

You are mistaken - the gun on the German CA's, for all its qualities, was not an autoloader, but a conventional gun. navweaps.com has pictures of the loading process - the forecharge was actually loaded manually. I assume the guns fired slightly faster than the 8-in guns of other people, as was the case with the guns of Scharnhorst and Bismarck. I attribute that mainly to their sliding-block type breeches and cased propellant charges. Sliding breech blocks have a linear motion that is easier to mechanize (and automate) as well as faster-acting than the usual screw-type breeches. At least I've never heard of a semiautomatic breech that wasn't a sliding/falling-block type. The Mk 16 guns on the Des Moines CA's had falling-block breeches and single-piece cased propellant charges.

You make interesting points about the damage-control arrangements and protection details. You're right: details like that aren't mentioned in the usual publications. Prinz Eugen seems to have been a kind of technology showpiece, it is known the ship was stuffed (some say: overloaded) with every mod con, including by the end of the war a centimetric radar (AFAIK the only such unit installed on board a German ship in WWII) and a special ballistic computer for NGFS directed by offset shoreside OP's. It must have been the most interesting item of naval war booty, apart from the type XXI subs. It's regrettable that the USN saw fit to expend the ship as target for nuclear weapons tests.

The good showing at the Kwajalein tests was probabbly due to the fully-welded construction of the ship, which included the torpedo bulkheads - indeed the Wotan series of armour steels was specifically developed for good welding characteristics. Most of the other target ships were largely or fully riveted. It would have been interesting to see how a modern US cruiser would have fared - in hindsight I'm sure the USN could well have spared a Cleveland class CL. AFAIK most of the Clevelands that weren't converted to missile ships sat mothballed in the Reserve Fleet facilities until they were scrapped while most of the surviving Brooklyns were snapped up by foreign navies.

[el cid again]

I used to birth across the pier from Newport News - and the gunners were very proud of her guns - and my ship - which regularly sole the E from all others (in spite of only having tiny 3 inch guns - we were the best shots - due to a unique motivational technique used by the chief gunner - which I stole to use on a different ship with an anti missile mission) was always in debate with her gunners. They said the Prinz had automatic guns - and some game databases say so as well. The ship sank when I was too young - and no way I ever got to look at them.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

I used to birth across the pier from Newport News - and the gunners were very proud of her guns - and my ship - which regularly sole the E from all others (in spite of only having tiny 3 inch guns - we were the best shots - due to a unique motivational technique used by the chief gunner - which I stole to use on a different ship with an anti missile mission) was always in debate with her gunners. They said the Prinz had automatic guns - and some game databases say so as well. The ship sank when I was too young - and no way I ever got to look at them.

The Soviet technical documentation said nothing about automatic loading. Neither did any of the declassified documents I translated for Nathan Okun thirty years ago, and they went into most areas. Of particular interest were the vulnerability tables--showing the ranges over which the armour (of both the German ships and their opponents) could be penetrated by various AP shells. In general, there was an immune zone at medium ranges, where enemy shells could not penetrate, a vulnerable zone at short range for the belt armour, and a similar zone at long range for the deck armour. This information had been top secret and was used by ship captains to optimise the range of engagement. Some ships were vulnerable at all ranges to heavy shells, and basically had to avoid battle. As I remember, the Panzerschiffen were in that category against British and French 14 and 15 inch shells.

[DuckofTindalos]

The PE had no autoloading 20cm gun.

[el cid again]

It is possible that gunners with them thought the German ship did - in part because it had a high ROF. Perhaps it was just very efficient. German subs could dive in times we could not -- because of both technical and operating factors thought through in a sense we did not. They would fight in condition XRay (in USN talk) - doors open - and any crew not at a station would run to the bow or stern to help shift the weight. They were small enough this mattered. Stuff like that.

[mikemike]

I remember an episode told by Paul Schmalenbach in his book about the history of German naval gunnery. (I don't own that book btw) He was senior gunnery officer in the skeleton crew aboard PE postwar when it was transferred to the Pacific in preparation for the Kwajalein nuclear tests. The ship was accompanied by USS Houston which had a number of journalists embarked. (I think it was on this cruise that the tests of PE's torpedo warning sonar were performed). Anyway, for the amusement of the journalists USS Houston demonstrated AA fire against a remote-controlled target drone. Then PE was asked to do a surface shoot on a towed target. Schmalenbach says he only barely was able to scratch up enough people to man the two after turrets, and some of the crew were cooks and other ratings who had never been near the guns before. He said it took only a few salvoes with live ammunition to smash up the target so much that USS Houston, which was closer to the target, couldn't see it any more in the falling dusk and terminated the shoot. He didn't mention the range. I think PE may have had the sharpest gunnery department in the Kriegsmarine. They needed fewer salvoes than Bismarck to get hits on HMS Hood anyway.

[DuckofTindalos]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

It is possible that gunners with them thought the German ship did - in part because it had a high ROF. Perhaps it was just very efficient. German subs could dive in times we could not -- because of both technical and operating factors thought through in a sense we did not. They would fight in condition XRay (in USN talk) - doors open - and any crew not at a station would run to the bow or stern to help shift the weight. They were small enough this mattered. Stuff like that.

Eh, what do subs have to do with the guns on the Prinz Eugen?[&:][&:][&:]

[el cid again]

Only that it is an example of the degree to which they get things efficient. I had to work on some German machines - and they are not like our machines. Very different philosophy and attitude. They never even document anything mechanical - it is assumed to be obvious. I tell stories to help people cross the cultural line - the Germans are fast and efficient - as a cultural habit. They are also a bit arrogant about it - but as a former nuki poo I can say so are we. In ET school they said we were the elite of the world. But the nuclear program was considered even more elite - and only 2 in 100 of the nuclear students wre actually electronics technicians - so this tiny band thought they were the most elite club in the world. I got to help Germans learn about a class of destroyers they bought (I speak German) - and the two attitudes reminded me of each other.

[el cid again]

I will update again - mainly to redo an art pointer - but also correct some eratta I found (mostly EBO but not all)

and add Two RTN CL to the set (for EBO)

move a VFN CL to Madagascar (for EBO)

change EBO Agano class cruisers to their first design (6 guns) - and build them a year sooner (in response to a USN navy bill - something that really was a factor I just learned) (for EBO)

change the EBO Oyodo class cruisers to the later (8 guns) Agano design which is normally featured in EOS -

I have two problems

a) I seem to have lost Fujimoto schil (EBO only)

b) I need to find a slot we can use for a Ukermack art set that has been donated for this application (ALL scenarios)

[el cid again]

I have made some additions and will upload now - ]\

both art and files (to get pointers right)

I learned we did not have and RTN destroyer - two RTN minelayers - added to all -
and I figured out we have suitable art in the set for the RTN CLs - and also I learned
these were nearly built in Japan by a contractor - so EBO has added these two ships
using Japanese rather than Italian weapons. In EBO we do not have the war between
Thailand and France, so the ships lost or damaged in 1940 are not - and the second
batch of 4 SSC are built.

I also corrected or enhanced some other items - again mainly in EBO but some in all -
including significantly for EBO we took IJA coast defense forts at important locations
and put old 14 inch guns in them. [IJA had only ONE turret for ALL guns - from 8 inches
to 16 inches - it had ten inches of armor on the face - it was able to mount any army or
navy gun between those calibers - a very interesting idea]

Ukermack art was donated and I was able to work it in.

[mikemike]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

a) I seem to have lost Fujimoto schil (EBO only)

You can make the shil yourself if you've got the ship art, and it's not difficult. Take a painting program (I use paint.net, which is freeware). Copy the ship art and open the copy with the paint program. Zoom the picture to 700-800%. Open a shil and grab the background color with the pipette tool. Switch back to the ship art and, using the single pixel pencil, draw shil background pixels around the ship picture proper so it is completely wrapped in shil background. Then you can color the rest of the bmp using the paint bucket tool and the shil is finished. You only need to save it under the proper name.

[el cid again]

I assumed I had to learn art - and invested in scanners (plural) and programs (plural) a couple of years ago. But Cobra was so fast it was not worth mastering this stuff - which would take a year or so. I am now working in a team situation - and it is better to let those with the tools and mastery use them - and for the coordinator to coordinate. The result is better and faster product.

But thanks for the explanation - it helps to understand how things are done