MWIF Game Interface Design

World in Flames is the computer version of Australian Design Group classic board game. World In Flames is a highly detailed game covering the both Europe and Pacific Theaters of Operations during World War II. If you want grand strategy this game is for you.

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RE: MWIF Game Interface Design

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Froonp
ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
When you look at the map or review a port/sea area/sea area section, each task force will appear as a single counter - there is a separate bitmapped image for task force 'units'.
With the Task Force name written on it, it would be better.
Then the player can "pick up" a task force and move it about the map. Task force definitions will remain in effect until the player disbands them, or unit losses reduce it to a single unit. They last from impulse to impulse and from turn to turn. That way moving TFs out to patrol and back to port should be easy.
Fine. I hoped we could keep Task Force even when in ports.

Would be good also in the NRD if the total oil cost of the units were shown. Replacing the Defense factor thing with that could be a real plus to the naval side of the game. Knowing the oil price of a TF is as almost important as knowing its range & speed.
Yes, to all.

I have room to add one more row to the form and oil point usage is the clear winner (so far). I'll put it at the bottom and only have it appear if that optional rule is in use.
Ah, I had this revelation last night that affects this.

For the Task Force Summary form, there will be plenty of room. That's because instead of ports and sea areas there will only be task forces. One possibility is to show just 8 task forces at a time, which provides room for another 20 rows of statistics per task force. Alternatively, I could do a top and bottom 8 columns, where the filters are different. For example, the top 8 could be for the current major power's task forces and the bottom for allied or enemy task forces.
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RE: MWIF Game Interface Design

Post by hakon »

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
In general 'shortcut' and 'automatic' are words that make the hair on the back of my neck rise. They immediately imply that there is a way to do this already in the player interface, so we are just talking about convenience.

Now, I actually use the player interface more than all the beta testers combined, so if there is something that is tedious to do, I learn about it very quickly. And I spend time brooding about possible ways to make it easier. For instance, I just went through several forms and repositioned the buttons so they are grouped together, to minimize the distance you have to move the mouse when making a series of decisions on the form.

But both shortcut and automatic means taking control out of the hands of the player and having the computer go off on its own and do things. That makes me nervous, for it requires that I figure out in advance all the possible situations where these actions might occur and guaranteeing that the way I program for them is perfect - always making the correct decision on behalf of the player. I have learned from experience that my ability to make perfect decisions is always doubtful.

Steve

I understand project constraints, risks of feature creep and the need to keep to a simple design for cost and risk reasons. I also understand psycological reasons such as fatigue at as a project nears it's end. (I have worked in the software industry for the last 10 years, most of this time as either a developer, architect or consultant.) If one agrees that an idea is good, but too complex to be in scope in the first release, it usually gets recorded as candidate functionality for future releases. Clearly, I realize that many of my more involved suggestions are unlikely to be included in the first release, given the current scope definition (ie a computerized WIF FE), and release plan.

But the rather consistent rejections of my proposals seem to go beyond that, and they have from the start. From statements like the above, it seems that the real difference lies in differences of taste. It's hard to argue agains that, and the seeming consistency of it indicates that I am simply wasting everyone's time coming up with these kinds of suggestions.

Btw, I am not really suggestin any real automation. (I've been thinking of suggesting it, but not really taken it that far). By real automation, I mean that the the game would actually execute actions for the player. Rather, what I have suggested falls more in the domain of information gathering. (This comes natural for me, since my work lies in the intersection between statistical analysis/business intelligence and more classic programming, for which I am currently emplyed as an architect) By placing the information "at the fingertips" of the player (excuse the cliché), I seek to speed up play. I do NOT want the game to make any kind of prioritisation on behalf of the player. This is purely the domain of the player, in my opinion.

I realize that some of the things that I've suggested would require some more or less involved code, and having to run that code every time I right-click, could also require some optimization of that code. Except for the actual UI, though, I would think that most of or all of this code has to be written as support algorithms for the AIO sooner or later, anyway.

But I still feel that thehre is a considerable difference of philosophy and taste, that will at least require the game to be released before I start coming up with suggested features.

That being said, the game does seem to shape up rather well, and I really look forward to it's realease. I must say that I'm quite impressed by the dedication you have been showing to the product and the willingness to go on with minimal income and very long hours to see it through, without compromising on quality. I get the impression that you alone do the work that most software companies require at least 4 people to get done.

I hope that you will be rewarded for this when the game comes out. Have you put any thought into what price level you should sell it at? I have the feeling that this kind of niche game is not going to be terribly price sensitive when it comes to sales volume, so you may be able to sell it at $100-200 even online. Alternatively, it may be a good idea to charge some kind of monthly fee ($5-10/month, for instance, for online play, if you are going to provide a playing lobby, etc.

Simmilar to, for instance, MS flight simmulator, the game is not going to face much in terms of newer, more technically advanced, competition. This means that it's not likely to be faced with much price preassure very soon.

For further revenue, you may want to create a deluxe version. Ideally, this would be compatible with the standard version for multiplayer purposes, etc, but could include player help systems, maybe a full hardcopy of the MWIF maps (at WIF FEW scale), etc. Maybe even some of my suggestions could find it's way into such a product.

Cheers
Hakon
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Norman42
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RE: MWIF Game Interface Design

Post by Norman42 »


Hakon,

To paraphrase two great men:

"Churchill has 100 ideas per day, of which only 1 is of any value." - F.D. Rooseveldt

"Thats better then FDR, who has no ideas at all!" - Winston Churchill


Ideas are great, and brainstorming is what creates bold new ideas that improve things (ie this game). Not every idea is viable in the short term, but that doesn't mean they aren't good ideas, or that they don't spur more discussion.

I find many of your ideas brilliant, but I can see how they would have a hard time working into MWiF as it stands now; perhaps in Product2. Your ideas seem to be very far reaching and what I call "big picture". Those types of ideas often have a hard time working in when somebody else is responsible for the main job of painting that picture, especially when the picture is already nearing completion.

So don't feel like your ideas aren't appreciated. I know Steve reads everything here, and even if an idea isn't doable out of the box, it gets him (and everyone else here) thinking of other ways to improve the game.

Keep it up!

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RE: MWIF Game Interface Design

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: hakon

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
In general 'shortcut' and 'automatic' are words that make the hair on the back of my neck rise. They immediately imply that there is a way to do this already in the player interface, so we are just talking about convenience.

Now, I actually use the player interface more than all the beta testers combined, so if there is something that is tedious to do, I learn about it very quickly. And I spend time brooding about possible ways to make it easier. For instance, I just went through several forms and repositioned the buttons so they are grouped together, to minimize the distance you have to move the mouse when making a series of decisions on the form.

But both shortcut and automatic means taking control out of the hands of the player and having the computer go off on its own and do things. That makes me nervous, for it requires that I figure out in advance all the possible situations where these actions might occur and guaranteeing that the way I program for them is perfect - always making the correct decision on behalf of the player. I have learned from experience that my ability to make perfect decisions is always doubtful.

Steve

I understand project constraints, risks of feature creep and the need to keep to a simple design for cost and risk reasons. I also understand psycological reasons such as fatigue at as a project nears it's end. (I have worked in the software industry for the last 10 years, most of this time as either a developer, architect or consultant.) If one agrees that an idea is good, but too complex to be in scope in the first release, it usually gets recorded as candidate functionality for future releases. Clearly, I realize that many of my more involved suggestions are unlikely to be included in the first release, given the current scope definition (ie a computerized WIF FE), and release plan.

But the rather consistent rejections of my proposals seem to go beyond that, and they have from the start. From statements like the above, it seems that the real difference lies in differences of taste. It's hard to argue agains that, and the seeming consistency of it indicates that I am simply wasting everyone's time coming up with these kinds of suggestions.

Btw, I am not really suggestin any real automation. (I've been thinking of suggesting it, but not really taken it that far). By real automation, I mean that the the game would actually execute actions for the player. Rather, what I have suggested falls more in the domain of information gathering. (This comes natural for me, since my work lies in the intersection between statistical analysis/business intelligence and more classic programming, for which I am currently emplyed as an architect) By placing the information "at the fingertips" of the player (excuse the cliché), I seek to speed up play. I do NOT want the game to make any kind of prioritisation on behalf of the player. This is purely the domain of the player, in my opinion.

I realize that some of the things that I've suggested would require some more or less involved code, and having to run that code every time I right-click, could also require some optimization of that code. Except for the actual UI, though, I would think that most of or all of this code has to be written as support algorithms for the AIO sooner or later, anyway.

But I still feel that thehre is a considerable difference of philosophy and taste, that will at least require the game to be released before I start coming up with suggested features.

That being said, the game does seem to shape up rather well, and I really look forward to it's realease. I must say that I'm quite impressed by the dedication you have been showing to the product and the willingness to go on with minimal income and very long hours to see it through, without compromising on quality. I get the impression that you alone do the work that most software companies require at least 4 people to get done.

I hope that you will be rewarded for this when the game comes out. Have you put any thought into what price level you should sell it at? I have the feeling that this kind of niche game is not going to be terribly price sensitive when it comes to sales volume, so you may be able to sell it at $100-200 even online. Alternatively, it may be a good idea to charge some kind of monthly fee ($5-10/month, for instance, for online play, if you are going to provide a playing lobby, etc.

Simmilar to, for instance, MS flight simmulator, the game is not going to face much in terms of newer, more technically advanced, competition. This means that it's not likely to be faced with much price preassure very soon.

For further revenue, you may want to create a deluxe version. Ideally, this would be compatible with the standard version for multiplayer purposes, etc, but could include player help systems, maybe a full hardcopy of the MWIF maps (at WIF FEW scale), etc. Maybe even some of my suggestions could find it's way into such a product.

Cheers
Hakon
Hakon,

Marketing and pricing is purely the domain of Matrix Games. They want to maximize profits as much as I do (I'll get a royalty based on a percentage of sales). They also have a lot more experience with this than I do. My take on this is I'll let them decide - not that I have much choice[:D].

I am 99+% focused on product 1. Once that is done and been in the hands of players for a while, I'll start a discussion in the forum on what should be in product 2. That should be a lively discussion.[;)]

I believe very few people can even begin to appreciate the size of this game in terms of code. The more code there is, the more interactions there are between modules/routines/components/whatever-you-want-to-call-them. When features grow linearly, the complexity grows exponentially.
Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.
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RE: MWIF Game Interface Design

Post by hakon »

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Hakon,

Marketing and pricing is purely the domain of Matrix Games. They want to maximize profits as much as I do (I'll get a royalty based on a percentage of sales). They also have a lot more experience with this than I do. My take on this is I'll let them decide - not that I have much choice[:D].

I am 99+% focused on product 1. Once that is done and been in the hands of players for a while, I'll start a discussion in the forum on what should be in product 2. That should be a lively discussion.[;)]

I believe very few people can even begin to appreciate the size of this game in terms of code. The more code there is, the more interactions there are between modules/routines/components/whatever-you-want-to-call-them. When features grow linearly, the complexity grows exponentially.

Oh, I do think I have a clue about the state of the code, being partly a programmer myself. And I realize the complexity growth, though I tend to think it only grows geomtrically (probably proportional to the square) with respect initer-dependant feature growth.

This is one of the reasons that it's so hard to change features in the middle of a development cycle, and also the main reason why the guys that came up with extreme programming place so much so much emphasis on refactoring. Refactoring, often lets you separate parts of the code that has grown inter-dependant, in such a way that overall complexity can be kept closer to linear with respect to feature count. Some times, it may actually be cheaper to write all parts of the code several times, rather than to try to fix problems created by unexpected interdependency.

Cheers
Hakon
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RE: MWIF Game Interface Design

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: hakon

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Hakon,

Marketing and pricing is purely the domain of Matrix Games. They want to maximize profits as much as I do (I'll get a royalty based on a percentage of sales). They also have a lot more experience with this than I do. My take on this is I'll let them decide - not that I have much choice[:D].

I am 99+% focused on product 1. Once that is done and been in the hands of players for a while, I'll start a discussion in the forum on what should be in product 2. That should be a lively discussion.[;)]

I believe very few people can even begin to appreciate the size of this game in terms of code. The more code there is, the more interactions there are between modules/routines/components/whatever-you-want-to-call-them. When features grow linearly, the complexity grows exponentially.

Oh, I do think I have a clue about the state of the code, being partly a programmer myself. And I realize the complexity growth, though I tend to think it only grows geomtrically (probably proportional to the square) with respect initer-dependant feature growth.

This is one of the reasons that it's so hard to change features in the middle of a development cycle, and also the main reason why the guys that came up with extreme programming place so much so much emphasis on refactoring. Refactoring, often lets you separate parts of the code that has grown inter-dependant, in such a way that overall complexity can be kept closer to linear with respect to feature count. Some times, it may actually be cheaper to write all parts of the code several times, rather than to try to fix problems created by unexpected interdependency.

Cheers
Hakon
Your last sentence is definitively one of my basic working tactics. I just copy and modify rather than try to write a general purpose routine that can be called with different parameters. Only if things get absurdly repetitive do I look into the possibility of a universal solution to a common problem. It's enormously faster to just copy and modify something that is known to work already.
Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.
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RE: MWIF Game Interface Design

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

Here is a quick and dirty screen layout for reviwing 8 sea areas at once.

I will try to do a matching screen shot using the Naval Review Summary form today or tomorrow.

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RE: MWIF Game Interface Design

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

Here is the companion screen shot for the previous post. This has what i am seriously considering to be the final layout for the Naval Review Sumary form.

The only defect in the NRS form currently is the 'selected' cell that is gray (it shows a 7 in the Tokyo column). I want the cell backgrounds to never change color.

I now have the First, Previous, Next, and Last buttons working. None of the other buttons and none of the check boxes have any code behind them so far.

You click on a column to select it - either a port or sea area column. If you then click on Next, the column content changes to the next port/sea area that has units in it. That is how I was able to get the 16 specific columns I wanted to display. I choose the 8 sea areas shown in the previous post and 8 ports where the Japanese had ships.

The selected column has its name outlined and its cell entries shown in blue. Here that is the rightmost sea area column = China Sea.

For the sea box section cell, I decided to list them in descending order. The 02 entry just looked like a 2 with a leading zero to me. There isn't room for 43210, so teh code looks for that and replaces it with the word 'All'.

As Patrice noted, the port symbols are a trifle large, especailly for the minor ports, but if I make them smaller, they will lose some resolution.

I am intentionally not showing oil point usage here. Instead I will show that on the Task Force forms.

I'm going to make the 'Ports' and 'Sea Areas' labels bold.

Comments?

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RE: MWIF Game Interface Design

Post by Froonp »

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Comments?
- I prefered the ports symbols at the top of the columns, sounded more logical. I still prefer them smaller, even if resolution loss. They are secondary here. The background of the column's name in deep blue with white writing would have sufficed to indicate major port. But the icon instead is fine.

- I think that all the "0" should be either deleted or replaced by dashes. The reading of the actual numbers would be improved.

- What is the "Section(s)" row ?
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RE: MWIF Game Interface Design

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: Froonp
ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Comments?
- I prefered the ports symbols at the top of the columns, sounded more logical. I still prefer them smaller, even if resolution loss. They are secondary here. The background of the column's name in deep blue with white writing would have sufficed to indicate major port. But the icon instead is fine.

- I think that all the "0" should be either deleted or replaced by dashes. The reading of the actual numbers would be improved.

- What is the "Section(s)" row ?
Yeah, smaller port symbols seems better the more I look at it. I still prefer them in the middle, so the column headers are closer to the cell contents. The icon has the advantage of showing ports that are currently iced-in or capable of being iced-in. it is exactly what is being displayed on the map for the port's symbol (I am using the same code).

Replacing 0's with blanks is obvious, now that you mention it.[;)]

Section(s) are the sea box sections that are occupied. It is the one place where I will leave zeroes.

I forgot to split the # Carried into carrier air units and 'other'. I'll do that tomorrow. I should be able to finish this form tomorrow - getting all the buttons to work.
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RE: MWIF Game Interface Design

Post by Peter Stauffenberg »

I think the NRD and NRS look very nice now, especially after the improvements. I wonder the selection process of which ports or sea areas you decide to show together.
 
E. g. you had at at one example ports in the following sequence: Leningrad, Belfast, Liverpool, Plymouth, Sevastopol, Halifax, La Spezia and Vladivostok.  I fail to see any logic in how the ports are shown. It seems to not be sorted by name, it's not sorted by country or minor port vs major port.  So could you please tell a little about how we select which ports we show together?
 
The Commonwealth has lots of ports around the world and I would expect to group the ports shown together according to country, sea zone or region (Med, Atlantic, Baltic, Pacific etc.), alphabetically or something similar.
 
Will we decide how the ports and sea zones are grouped together ala map views? That means we manually setup which port or sea zone will be shown in each column and then save the view as a NRS view with a name we recognize?  If this method is used then I wonder if predefined views will be made so we don't have to do it ourselves if the predefined ones are fine.
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RE: MWIF Game Interface Design

Post by Norman42 »

ORIGINAL: Froonp
- I prefered the ports symbols at the top of the columns, sounded more logical. I still prefer them smaller, even if resolution loss. They are secondary here. The background of the column's name in deep blue with white writing would have sufficed to indicate major port. But the icon instead is fine.

- I think that all the "0" should be either deleted or replaced by dashes. The reading of the actual numbers would be improved.

Agreed on both of these. The port symbols at the top was much more intuitive.


One suggestion I'd make is to have the numbers in the "section" row be reversed so they are laid out in the same way as the seabox sections on the map.

ie 01234 instead of 43210.


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RE: MWIF Game Interface Design

Post by Froonp »

ORIGINAL: Norman42
One suggestion I'd make is to have the numbers in the "section" row be reversed so they are laid out in the same way as the seabox sections on the map.
Yes, if possible, this seems to make more sense.
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RE: MWIF Game Interface Design

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: Norman42
ORIGINAL: Froonp
- I prefered the ports symbols at the top of the columns, sounded more logical. I still prefer them smaller, even if resolution loss. They are secondary here. The background of the column's name in deep blue with white writing would have sufficed to indicate major port. But the icon instead is fine.

- I think that all the "0" should be either deleted or replaced by dashes. The reading of the actual numbers would be improved.

Agreed on both of these. The port symbols at the top was much more intuitive.


One suggestion I'd make is to have the numbers in the "section" row be reversed so they are laid out in the same way as the seabox sections on the map.

ie 01234 instead of 43210.


Ok for the section #s.

Would you prefer the label to be Sea Boxes instead of Section(s)? I can't decide.[&:]

Can I get other people's opinions on the port symbols? Top or Bottom of columns? Right now I am outvoted 2 to 1, but I expect more than 3 people to play this game.[:)]
Steve

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RE: MWIF Game Interface Design

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: Borger Borgersen

I think the NRD and NRS look very nice now, especially after the improvements. I wonder the selection process of which ports or sea areas you decide to show together.

E. g. you had at at one example ports in the following sequence: Leningrad, Belfast, Liverpool, Plymouth, Sevastopol, Halifax, La Spezia and Vladivostok.  I fail to see any logic in how the ports are shown. It seems to not be sorted by name, it's not sorted by country or minor port vs major port.  So could you please tell a little about how we select which ports we show together?

The Commonwealth has lots of ports around the world and I would expect to group the ports shown together according to country, sea zone or region (Med, Atlantic, Baltic, Pacific etc.), alphabetically or something similar.

Will we decide how the ports and sea zones are grouped together ala map views? That means we manually setup which port or sea zone will be shown in each column and then save the view as a NRS view with a name we recognize?  If this method is used then I wonder if predefined views will be made so we don't have to do it ourselves if the predefined ones are fine.
Thanks.

I have a few more enhancements I expect to do today. I have also written the content for the Help button on the NRD form which I'll post later today.

Yeah, I expect the beta testers to figure out the more useful NRS column configurations, and give them meaningful names. Right now, I am just showing "easiest columns to dump on the screen" without much consideration of how they should be selected or arranged.
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RE: MWIF Game Interface Design

Post by bredsjomagnus »

Can I get other people's opinions on the port symbols? Top or Bottom of columns? Right now I am outvoted 2 to 1, but I expect more than 3 people to play this game.[:)]
 
Top of columns if you ask me.
 
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RE: MWIF Game Interface Design

Post by Norman42 »

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Would you prefer the label to be Sea Boxes instead of Section(s)? I can't decide.

I think "Sea Box" would be better. I (and it seems Patrice as well) didn't know what "Sections" row meant at first until you explained. "Seabox" I would have understood immediatly.
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RE: MWIF Game Interface Design

Post by warspite1 »


[/quote]
Ok for the section #s.

Would you prefer the label to be Sea Boxes instead of Section(s)? I can't decide.[&:]

Can I get other people's opinions on the port symbols? Top or Bottom of columns? Right now I am outvoted 2 to 1, but I expect more than 3 people to play this game.[:)]
[/quote]

My view would be:

a) Sea boxes rather than sections, and
b) Port symbols definately on top please.
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Peter Stauffenberg
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RE: MWIF Game Interface Design

Post by Peter Stauffenberg »

I like the port symbols at the top. Smaller icons as Patrice suggested would be even better. I think the port texture should be transparent outside the texture so we don't see the white square.
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RE: MWIF Game Interface Design

Post by *Lava* »

ORIGINAL: Norman42

The port symbols at the top was much more intuitive.

Agreed.

Especially for someone who has no idea how this game plays... [X(]

Ray (alias Lava)
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