What are CV good for ?

[IKerensky]

Ok, finnaly I am addicted. It take some times to go past the first : " Oh my god there is too goddamn things to manage" impression but when you got the campaign rolling it really really become easier and easier to manage ( classical monster-game first turn syndroma [ check Europa or World In Flammes or Europa Universalis, seems unplayable until you complete the first 2 turn then it really became easy and fun ])

Now I am experiencing with the US side. I repulsed the Japanese first move exchanging Lady Lex for the Shoho ( bad bargain ). I entirely remove all pressure from PM ( size 5: 200 Level bomber based there ) by building Gili Gili into an airbase ( size 3, 150 Fighter bomber based there ). And I am currently suppressing LAe. Buna is guarnised by walking dog and reinforcement are on the track to build the beach near it D... into a major airbase too.

In Solomon's Tulagi is garrisoned and Lunga is operationnal for fighter ( with a CD unit and the Americal HQ and part subs ). They got visit from bomb TF that i doesnt seems able to intercept except in surface costly engagement.

From now on my subs did an amazing job from themselfs, my subchaser too ( impersonating Poseidon's paperweight )

My questions are following:

1- My CD unit at Lunga never seems to impact in the bombardement or surface battle, or at least it isn't reported: normal ?

2- How can ground unit lower fatigue ? only time ?

3- I cant engage my CVs into Betty range of Rabaul/Shortland, so basically all they are doing now is sitting behind Lunga and providing CAP.. a bit costly nope ? Any way I can try to go and fetch the Japanese bombardement force in the slot ? ( subs dont seems to get them on their way , I am currently trying to mine access but it is hard to evaluate impact and becoming dangerous as I approach SI ).

4- My strategical plan only take into account using Level Bomber to suppress Japanese airbase then advance. It seems possible to win nearly withtout using the CVs, is it ? I just cant see a CV TF win over a decent sized airbase, after all an airfield can take 15 Torpedo and 30 bombs and still behave... And CV are useless at night while Airbase still can be used.

P.S. Typing this it come to my mind the idea to put the Lunga airfield group in Night setting and see if they can manage to get the Tokyo Express.

[Philbill1]

If you really think CV's are not effective enough then your not using them properly. He who has command of the sea has command of UV. I am in Sept of the grand campaign as the allies. I have sunk all the Jap CV's and CVL's apart from Zuikaku(sp?) for the loss of lady Lex. I have dominance of the areas around Guadalcanal and GiliGili by parking alternete TF's in the middle I sink many Transports and the BB Mutsu. The whole point of a CV is its a mobile airbase usually with well trained aircrews.
Phil

[Erik Rutins]

Kerensky,

Glad to hear you're enjoying UV.

1. CD hits will be reported during the bombardment animation and in the combat report afterwards. You'll see the enemy ship name and its hit/damage status just like after a surface battle. In some cases, the enemy bombardment TF is either out of range of your CD or (more likely) your CD just plain missed them. If they keep coming and aren't bombarding from BB range, you'll start hitting them.

2. If you are in a malaria zone, you can stabilize this somewhat at a large base, but generally it increases gradually over time. Any activity, including marching and combat, increases it more quickly. Rotating a unit out to a large support-filled base in a malaria-free zone can get rid of fatigue entirely. The manual has more info on this.

3. Those are the realities at this point in history. If you want to try to catch the bombardment TF, you could try creeping your CV TF up the northern side of the Solomons, past the Slot, heading towards Shortlands. You may be able to get within long range of your Dauntlesses for their return run in the morning without getting smacked by Rabaul. This requires some practice and being comfortable with risking your carriers.

4. LBA is certainly a key part of the equation, but you can't get everywhere on land. Carriers are just as essential a part of the equation. Between Air Force, Navy and Army, all have to work together to work well in this theater. To take on a decent size enemy base, you'll generally want a multiple CV force. One CV can certainly do some damage, but it's not a worthwhile exercise. With a single CV in Scenario 17, I'd make sure to keep it away from the Japanese CVs until you get a few reinforcements. Engage in sniping their transport and surface combat TFs when you find them without carrier protection.

Night missions are very iffy - looking for a TF at night with pilots used to flying in the day is likely to yield minimal results.

Regards,

- Erik

[Hartmann]

Kerensky mentioned the "first turn syndrome". This is really true! The challenge in all those great scale games is always to get the first couple of turns done. At first one is overwhelmed and daunted by all the details, units etc. but after a few turns, a plan emerges and everything falls into place. After a few more turns one already begins to long for more detail and scope.

I know many guys who gave up on the greatest games just because they somehow never could get over the "first turn stupor", and resigned too soon without even having really begun to play.

Hartmann

[IKerensky]

Hum , frankly I doubt CV are all that much important.

Currently with Bases at GG, Buna , PM, Lunga I can already harass the japanese shipping. To have any bigger impact I would have to send my CV well under ennemy LBA where they just wont live long enough.

CV are usefull to protect the bases when they are building, but as soon as I can stage here enough LBA then CV are just fuel costly paperweight that need to be keep well protected.

About the malaria I can understand but this is really annoying for unit that you just CANT rotate like the CD. Thoses are positionnal and rare unit, I guess I could have their personnal rotate without having to move all the guns

[dgaad]

1. Airpower plays a predominate role. Surface engagements will almost never be decisive. Battles on land and between guns are only useful to the extent they influence the possession of bases from which airpower can be used.

2. A concentrated carrier air fleet will prevail over one dispersed and unsupported.

3. Carrier air engagements that risk the loss of carriers should only be attempted outside the range of enemy land based air. If it is necessary to engage enemy carriers withing the range of enemy land based air, make all attempts to reduce its effectiveness prior to the engagement by using other land based air assets, surface forces in a bombardment and suppression role, or as a last resort land forces.

4. If the enemy has a greater number of strike aircraft, whether land or carrier or the sum of these, it is more important to use your fighter resources to protect your carriers. It is far better to lose bomber airgroups to enemy fighters than to lose a carrier to enemy bombers.

5. The goal of all operations should be to establish air superiority in the theater. Enemy carrier groups are the most significant threat, since they represent offensive power. Eliminate or neutralize the enemy's offensive power, and victory will eventually follow. It therefore follows that the first goal of operations should be the destruction or neutralization of enemy carrier groups. Neutralization can occur if the enemy's carrier based airgroups suffer irreplaceable casualties.

6. Tactical goals should be ordered as follows :

a) destruction of enemy carrier groups
b) neutralization of enemy carrier air groups
c) destruction or neutralization of enemy land bases or land based air groups.
d) the prevention or obliteration of enemy attempts to construct new airbases.
e) the elimination or neutralization of any surface force capable of damaging significant friendly land bases.
f) the development, reinforcement and protection of significant friendly land bases.

Note that 5 of the 6 tactical goals are offensive in nature. Sea power in the air age is offensive, not defensive. Victory is only achieved by offensive action.

7. The enemy should not be relied on to violate any of the above principles.

8. The enemy should be, and can be, destroyed if he violates any of the above principles.

9. Superior force can be overcome by stealth, surprise, attrition, and unexpected offensive action. If faced with superior numbers of enemy carriers, observe enemy behavior and look for opportunities when you may engage within range of friendly air, out of range of enemy air, and come upon the enemy without notice or after they have expended resources in neutralizing their target.

10. As with offensive actions in all forms of warfare, strike with concentrated forces of all types, have a specific tactical goal. have a method or means of execution, and be flexible enough to depart from a battle plan without causing dispersal of effort or loss of a cohesive tactical goal.

[dgaad]

Originally posted by KERENSKY


About the malaria I can understand but this is really annoying for unit that you just CANT rotate like the CD. Thoses are positionnal and rare unit, I guess I could have their personnal rotate without having to move all the guns

But, Kerensky, even with personnel rotation, some of the personnel that haven't rotated would still be disrupted and fatigued to some extent.

The most effective ground units in the Pacific War were those that did not have massive personnel rotation, and which had become acclimated to natural as well as man-made threats.

[Hartmann]

I'm not that far in my first big campaign yet, but I think there's an upper limit to fatigue depending on how big the base is? I mean, PM is not malaria-free, but this shouldn't result in all personnell being sick after 6 months.

Having to rotate them all regularily would be too much micromanagement for my taste.

Hartmann

[Erik Rutins]

Yes, it should say in the manual that the larger the base is, the lower your fatigue will be. UV models the fact that a large, well-supported and supplied base in malaria country will have troops in far better shape than their counterparts marching through the bug-infested jungle 30 miles away.

As an example, take a fresh unit, ship it to Port Moresby and march it across the Kokoda trail. By the time it gets to Buna, it's in pretty bad shape. If you marched it across the trail right into combat, squads would start getting disabled at an alarming rate.

Regards,

- Erik

[Chris21wen]

Originally posted by Philbill1
If you really think CV's are not effective enough then your not using them properly. He who has command of the sea has command of UV. I am in Sept of the grand campaign as the allies. I have sunk all the Jap CV's and CVL's apart from Zuikaku(sp?) for the loss of lady Lex. I have dominance of the areas around Guadalcanal and GiliGili by parking alternete TF's in the middle I sink many Transports and the BB Mutsu. The whole point of a CV is its a mobile airbase usually with well trained aircrews.
Phil

I'm in mid July and I've got the opposite situation I've sunk 4 US CV with 2 badly damaged for the loss of Junyo. Using my carriers in a similar fashion I've sunk or damaged many a US ship, especially those bombarding Lunga. If I don't get them coming in I get them going home. Just occasionally they also run into a Surface TF at Lunga, usual with 4 BBs, 4 CAs, plus DDs. Althougth the North Carolina (SP?) made a mess of the Kongo.

I don't know if anybody else has noticed, but if you substantially win the first CV engagement you appear to gain a distinct advantage, how long it lasts for will probably depend upon luck and sound judgement. Just like Midway.

[Sonny]

Originally posted by Erik Rutins
.........

As an example, take a fresh unit, ship it to Port Moresby and march it across the Kokoda trail. By the time it gets to Buna, it's in pretty bad shape. If you marched it across the trail right into combat, squads would start getting disabled at an alarming rate.

Regards,

- Erik

I don't even think you can do that without resting a whole lot. Once fatigue gets to 99% they don't always make 1 mile a day.

[IKerensky]

HUm Japanese CV are at advantage to hinder supply line because US air bases are more far and between so less efficiently protect each other. For US defense Carrier are more valuable. Using US CV to try to chase Japanese convoy between Rabaul LAe and Shortland seems absolutely suicide except if your LBA have already suppressed thoses bases.

My point is : CV are usefull for ponctual action but real lasting effect can only be achieved by LBA, CV cant isolate/supress out of action a decent sized AB unless it is already isolated.

[Nikademus]

Originally posted by KERENSKY
Hum , frankly I doubt CV are all that much important.

Currently with Bases at GG, Buna , PM, Lunga I can already harass the japanese shipping. To have any bigger impact I would have to send my CV well under ennemy LBA where they just wont live long enough.

CV are usefull to protect the bases when they are building, but as soon as I can stage here enough LBA then CV are just fuel costly paperweight that need to be keep well protected.

About the malaria I can understand but this is really annoying for unit that you just CANT rotate like the CD. Thoses are positionnal and rare unit, I guess I could have their personnal rotate without having to move all the guns

If the other side has enough carrier assets to counter you, this can be somewhat the case at times, in the manner of a chessboard setup/development that limits the options of your Queen, thereby decreasing it's direct contribution to the game, even though its the most powerful piece at your disposal.

However if you have a serious advantage, and especially if it's early in the campaign when air bases and the presence of numerous LBA are not yet in high form, carrier CV's (with multiple carriers) reign supreme.

Like the IJN 1st Carrier striking force between Pearl Harbor and shortly before Coral sea, you can litterally sow a path of devastation and destruction which often (unless or unlucky, careless or both) cost you naught but a handful of planes, replaceable by the Japanese at this stage of the game.

For example in my current campaign i've scratched out a serious carrier edge over the American AI, sinking 50% of all his eventual OOB's worth........of which 3 out of 5 remaining wont be available for at least a year as they are Essex class carriers.

In return i've lost one fleet carrier and had a 2nd pretty much knocked out of the campaign for good if it's ETA of return is any indication but have been reinforced by four fleets and one add'l CVL. As such i've been able to go 'south' and thoroughly disrupt the Allies to the point where any human player at least would have to seriously curtail any and all major offensive plans. I've sunken numerous AK and AP units, damaged many more, sent (probably) at least 3 more CA's to the States for extensive repairs and badly damaged the port facilities of Esperitu Santo.

All for the cost of about 25 planes.

I have a 3 to 1 point edge in sunken ships and more importantly, these carrier ops (supported in part by powerful surface units), have allowed me to complete my conquest of the Solomons chain pretty much unhindered.

Had the AI more carriers though, and used them better, i wouldn't be in so rosy a situation and more importantly, would not be so free to utilize my own carriers to their fullest. It would be more like that chessboard situation i alluded too earlier.

Carriers are decisive, but like the Capital ships of the old days, they are also extremely valuable and must be treated as irreplaceable and precious resources.

Too bad noone told the AI this :p

[11Bravo]

Hi,

I'm very inexperienced, but I countered the Japanese night-time bombardment of Lunga by doing this:

Sent in a surface combat force of CA and DD selected on the basis of night experience and led by the most reckless guy available. Set it for retire so it would sprint in at night, engage, and leave.

The engagement was bloody for us, but we damaged all their heavies.

Couple of hexes behind our surface combat force was a large CV TF which chased the surviving damaged Jap bombardment TF toward Shortlands. We caught the damaged ones and sent a BB to the bottom. After the scenerio, we saw we reamed another BB as well that was repairing itself.

That was the one and only Lunga bombardment. It cost the Japs the use of 2 BB's and several other vessels.