Andy Mac v PZB ....The Allies Fight Back

[Andy Mac]

I agree but when I had 8 -  3xDD TF's they were ignoring most of the AP's and AK's so I tried a different tactic !!!
 
I was getting worried about only sinking 5 or 6 AK's a deay at a base where I had over 100 DD's
 
So I switched it round to see how it worked

[Andy Mac]

Things are getting desperate.
 
USAAF Pilot pool has been empty for months
USN Pilot pool has been empty for years
F4U1D and F6F pools are empty
 
Pretty much ever unit in the USN is taking damage. I dont have the assault lift to land more troops even though more are available
 
B29's have used about 2m supply in the last 6 weeks of operation.
 
Ananami will fall soon but then what.
 
I will be wekaer than I would have been had I went deeper before...
 
At least the last of PZB's ground attacked trained pilots are long gone but untrained Shindens and Reppus are killing me because even my Mustangs are untrained.
 
Andy

[Andy Mac]

As you can see scraping the bottom of the barrel....

[pat.casey]

Hate to say this because I'm an AFB at heart, but given the situation you're in and the ground combat model, I think Amani may be the high water mark of your counterattack.

Even if you'd taken it on the bounce e.g. turn one shock assault with minimal casualties, I'd be dubious you could take and hold a base on the mainland with the forces at your disposal.

Pretty much anywhere you land, level 9 forts and/or urban multipliers are going to hold you off long enough to rail or barge in enough reinforcements to stalemate you and that's all she wrote.

I can't think of very many allied players who have successfully invaded the Home Islands, even in games where the corellation of forces favored the allies more strongly. Seems like the game as is just favors the defender too greatly in the late game.

[Andy Mac]

There is a lot of truth in that with the assault lift i have and the Ground forces 10,000 AV is just not enough
 
At Bombay PZB has c 1,000 actual AV for an adjusted AV of 13,000 its simply to much to overcome.
 
The suicide AK's and AP's have not helped...
 
Much as I would love to blame the game you play the game you have not the game you wish you had.
 
AF's are slightly to much an all or nothing affair with terrible consequences if you fail...
 
In AE a lot of this is being dealt with on both sides PZB would not have been able to garrison Apananami as heavily but equally I would not have been able to attack as much.
 
Late war is very tough to model compared to early war because the scale changes so radically.
 
Arguably this game is Regt/Bn scale in 41 - early, Bde/Div Scale in Mid 42 - Mid 43, Div Scale Mid 43 - Mid 44, Corps Scale 44 - 45 and Army Scale in late 45 !!!
 
All of that in one game is a huge challenge.
 
Forts are a major issue though

[Nemo121]

Oh I disagree it favours the defender "too much" in the end game. What we are seeing here is an outlier of a game and even still Japan has no navy, no significant ability to project aerial power beyond its bases. What it does have is major ground forces which can't, in the long run, win but CAN make the cost of invading unthinkably high. This seems to me to be a very accurate representation of the situation in 1945 which led America to drop nukes.

[pat.casey]

Okinawa had, what, 100k defenders (so, say, 5 division equivalents) and the US took it with about 2 corps of troops. Sure, it took almost three months, but the US had usable airfield in about 2 weeks, didn't we?

I don't believe those same forces could dig out the same quantity of defenders within the parameters of the game.

[1275psi]

remember though this is an extreme game -PZB has had the advantage of massive production via India, and Andy has had to race the clock all the way.

My game against Tabpub reflects the reality perfectly -he is going to win thanks to a successful commerce war -literally starving my military to death. But he has had time to do it, and I only grabbed the Historical bits. I don't think he will have to invade the home islands.

I Just think that if Allied players try for the "brute force" method, trying to win through LCU's -it will be hard -as Japan does have the defensive strength. I think the game reflects the Japanese dogged fight to the last for every inch extremely well.
The allies have to -simply have to starve, strangle and isolate them from the very first days.

You make your choices though -but again I don't think based on just this game we should be saying "its all wrong!!!"
Andy Mac has done a good job -but I reckon he got beat by a better player -and the clock
Still, I salute Andy for persisting, and persisting.
Its been a great game, But I think the Homeland will never see an Allied boot upon it.

[Andy Mac]

All good points attacking core inner bases is and should be tough but the game is all or nothing for the AF which causes problems and those bases are possibly to tough because even a mountain hex has an AF that needs some flat terrain somewhere
 
I base almost nothing I am doing in AE on this game because that would cause seperate issues.
 
PZB is a great player nothing I am saying is in any way to say I aint been beat by a great player - ps I aint beat yet...VP count is 137k v 97k - I need to get up to c 190k and only use one more Atom Bomb to get a draw by 3/46 so it aint over until that fat lady starts singing
 
In any base that has mountains or urban terrain the combination with lvl 9 forts is too powerfull.
 
1,000 AV makes Okinawa and Iwo Jima impregnable which is not historic - 5 Divs on Okinawa in this game is invulnerable  x 3 x 4 = 12x modifier allies dont get enough troops in the whole game to take it.
 
I do believe that with the forces I have now the HI are more trouble than they are worth.
 
I need to decide whether to go for high value points bases and get Ananami up and running for 200 P47's to strat bomb Japan or to go for the end run.
 
But I am weaker than I was before Apanami so it may not be possible now
 

[Andy Mac]

Rangoon and South East India are worth a fair number of points as are Bombay
Formosa is worth a lot as is Pescadores and Hong Kong.
 
If I were to go for a points draw I should hit these bases and concentrate on strat bombing Japan.
 
Takes the pressure off the navy which is less valuable than it was as my USAAF pilot pool os empty as well

[ctangus]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Pretty much ever unit in the USN is taking damage. I dont have the assault lift to land more troops even though more are available

Quick question. Did you lose a lot of assault transports in earlier ops? Roughly how much was lost or disabled in this Amami op?

Curious 'cause I have both a game in mid-'43 and another in mid-'44 and combat shipping seems to be a limiting factor in both.

[Andy Mac]

Not much my LST's have been well protected the fact is you cannot really lift more than about 3 or max 4 Corps in a single lift say 5 or 6000 AV.
 
34 LST's = 1 Div lift
 
Using massed AK's I could lift more but thats not really assault lift

[Andy Mac]

I have lost 48 LST's 3 LSD's and 1 LSV so thats less than 2 Divs worth of lift lost to date

[ctangus]

Thanks! [:)] Though it might not be good news for me - I may have already lost more than that in my '44 game... [:(]

Good luck with the final months!

[Andy Mac]

LST's are the most valuable ships you get they need to be protected [:D][:D]
 
If I were to list the biggest avoidable mistakes I have made.
 
1. I regret Zamboanga
2. I regret Iwo Jima on the run
 
The others I dont regret.
 
Zamboanga I regret although it finished the IJN carrier threat it made me stop attacking the PI from the south despite the bases I had in the area.
 
What I should have done was close and fight a major battle there when my opportunism was kicked in many ways this was decisive I could have been in the PI and forcing PZB to fight on my terms instead I took Malaya and ended up taking the PI from the other side..
 
2. Iwo Jima - trying to take it on the run I should have known better level 9 forts plus mountain terrain = impregnable I broke the USN for the 3rd time off of Iwo Jima.
 
Strategically after securing Southern Borneo and Celebes I should have went NE into the PI whatever the cost instead I went to Malaya and took Malaya and SEA which only really lengthened my LOC
 
Choices you make 12 months before hurt you in this game its why its so fascinating

[Andy Mac]

p.s. the PI had huge unit counts what the SEA/Malaya campaign did achieve was to pull a lot of forces out of the PI (rememnber the 2 Divs I destroyed at sea)
 
Perhaps Malaya and SEA was not a total waste but it was an expensive way to weaken Luzon

[Andy Mac]

p.s. tip to all allioed player kill Mitsibushi Engines if ever you have a choice of target..
 
Shindens, Reppus, Graces, Betties all use em I will be going back to my kill Mitsibushi strategy as soon as I get Apanami up and running and I am saving my 2nd nuke for a base with 2 160 Mitsi factory

[ctangus]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

LST's are the most valuable ships you get they need to be protected [:D][:D]

I agree with you there. I was reckless with them at first, but now I'm ticked off if even one gets 20 sys damage.

If I were to list the biggest avoidable mistakes I have made.

1. I regret Zamboanga
2. I regret Iwo Jima on the run

The others I dont regret.

Zamboanga I regret although it finished the IJN carrier threat it made me stop attacking the PI from the south despite the bases I had in the area.

What I should have done was close and fight a major battle there when my opportunism was kicked in many ways this was decisive I could have been in the PI and forcing PZB to fight on my terms instead I took Malaya and ended up taking the PI from the other side..

2. Iwo Jima - trying to take it on the run I should have known better level 9 forts plus mountain terrain = impregnable I broke the USN for the 3rd time off of Iwo Jima.

Strategically after securing Southern Borneo and Celebes I should have went NE into the PI whatever the cost instead I went to Malaya and took Malaya and SEA which only really lengthened my LOC

I made a similar, if not worse, mistake at Iwo in my '44 game. I now have two corps stranded there and I've lost more CVs than I care to count. Malaya does seem too far out of the way to be worth major effort. The more I play the more I like the PI as a target - there's just too many bases there to be able to defend them all successfully.

Choices you make 12 months before hurt you in this game its why its so fascinating

Ain't that the truth! [:)]

[DW]

"2. I regret Iwo Jima on the run "

Actually, as I was reading your AAR describing the Iwo Jima campaign, I kept thinking that taking Iwo Jima on the run was a pretty darned good idea.

But, you needed to actually take it on the run as opposed to the last move in a longer campaign.

Your best chance to get Iwo was, as you were hoping, a coup de main.

And, because Iwo is so close to the HI your only real chance to get a coup de main was to attack it so quickly that PZB didn't have time to reinforce it.

When you attacked Wake and Marcus first, you tipped PZB off as to your axis of advance and gave him enough time to rush reinforcements to the island.

While I understand that you wanted Wake and Marcus first as a base for your LBA, in the end it was still your carriers that had to bear the brunt of the air battle.

Your LBA wasn't very effective in the fighting for Iwo, especially once he had reinforced the island.

I think that the additional surprise you'd have gained had you gone for Iwo first, and before he had time to start getting reinforcements together for it, would have more than offset the loss of LBA support that taking Wake and Marcus first allowed for.

If I recall correctly, at the time you had enough assault shipping available for two simultaneous invasion task forces.

You could have kept Wake and Marcus suppressed with your LBA from Midway while your carriers, bombardment groups and one of your invasion task forces rushed in and plastered Iwo.

I don't think you really would have had to worry about PZB rushing massive amounts of reinforcement to either Wake or Marcus once you had invested Iwo. They would have been too far behind his lines to make reinforcement an attractive option.

And, even if he had been inclined to reinforce them, his ability to get reinforcements to those islands was a lot less than his ability to get reinforcements to Iwo was.

Then, after the troops were ashore at Iwo, you could have pulled your carriers back toward a position north of Marcus, replenished them from AEs and AOs, and had them meet up with your second invasion TF for Marcus.

By that time Marcus's air power would have been significantly suppressed and as Marcus is out of range of support form most other Japanese bases, your weakened carrier force would still be able to handle anything he might still have been able to throw at you.

Once the troops were ashore at Marcus, you could then have pulled your carriers back to Midway to replenish while you loaded your Wake invasion force. By this time Wake would be very isolated and heavily suppressed and picking it off would likely have been an easy task.

It may not have worked, but even had it failed it's hard to see how it would have left you in a worse position than you actually ended up in.

And, if it had succeeded... Well... We can all see the implications of that.

Anyway, that's what I was thinking.

Finally, I want to commend both you and your opponent for letting us in on your game.

I read your entire AAR. It's been was a wild ride through an epic struggle and a fascinating read.

To echo other posters, the current level of carnage is simply unbelievable.

I want to thank you for the time you've invested to give people like me so much enjoyment.

And, I really mean that.

Thanks.

P.S.

I think the other poster who said going for the HI is impossible is right. You know you'll hit nothing but lvl 9 forts no matter where you land and his ability to reinforce is so great that unless you took your target within the first two or three days you'd never be able to.

[Andy Mac]

Thanks I agree unfortuantely I am weaker than I was my carriers are in tatters again so I need to think long and hard about my next move