MWIF Game Interface Design

[Froonp]

Hey, I had an idea.
Why also not let the player have a look at their global luck within the game ?
Players are always complaining they have no luck, or that they never roll this or that well. Showing them the hard data may make them shut their mouth and better thing their actions ?

Why not have all the dice rolls stored somewhere, showing what the die roll was for what the result was ?

For example :
Germany, Air to Air, 2d10, 18, AX
Germany, Air to Air, 2d10, 6, DX
Germany, Air to Air, 2d10, 11, DC
USA, Search roll, 1d10, 2, Found
etc...

I always wanted to do that in real games, to make people realise that they are neither out of luck or extremely lucky, rather that they tend to remember only some results and not others.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
4 - The center horizontal bar shows the progress through the air-to-air combat sub-phase. I think of these as sub-sub-phases. Right now the setting is on Choose Combat. That isn't quite right, since there is only 1 combat location (Changsha), but I haven't written the code to automatically skip subsubphases yet.

"Choose location" would be better, as "Choose combat" makes me think that you can choose the combat nature, as you choose in Naval Combat.

5 - The map shows the selected combat location. If there were more than 1, the player could click on different locations and have the map change. At the same time the unit lists at the top would change, and the information on the Results from Current Combat would refresh too. The idea is for the player to be able to review the different air-to-air combats before selecting one. The side with the most bombers in the air gets to choose the combat; and the major power within that side with the most bombers in the air is the decision maker.

I don't understand the choices.
Normaly, it is the active side that chooses the order in which to fight air to air combats, not the side with the most bombers in the air.
Also it seems to me, that the "decision maker" should be the owner of the front fighter (or bomber if there is no front fighter), as this is this air unit that is "fighting".
But maybe I have not understood what the "decision maker" or the "choose the order" meant.

Ok for Choose Location. All the word choices needed to be reviewed. I try to use Air-to-air Combat Location when there is enough room; when there isn't, I need to condense that to something shorter.

I haven't changed the decision maker code from CWIF, I have merely been documenting it. Having done so, I can now state what it is doing.

I have no emotional investment in who makes the decisions, and the code is easy to change if we decide on something different.

1 - Having the phasing/attacking side choose the order for fighting air-to-air combats is fine by me. That will be the only side flying bombers (includes ATRs) except possibly for Ground Support missions, where both sides get to fly bombers. In naval air combat, each air-to-air combat location is processed separately - there is no location choice to be made.

2 - Choosing the major power with the front bomber/fighter to arrange units doesn't work since someone has to decide which units will be the front bomber and fighter.

3 - I could make the major power arranging the units different from the major power that selects which units to destroy/abort/clear through, though that doesn't seem quite right to me.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
2 - Choosing the major power with the front bomber/fighter to arrange units doesn't work since someone has to decide which units will be the front bomber and fighter.

3 - I could make the major power arranging the units different from the major power that selects which units to destroy/abort/clear through, though that doesn't seem quite right to me.

Maybe have a choice proposed to the player ? He would have to click on the flag of the decision maker Major Power before arranging the air units ?

[lomyrin]

In air to air battles where surprise points are available, port attacks, Ground strike intercepts etc. there must exist a mechanism to allocate such points to modify the odds.
 
Lars

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Hey, I had an idea.
Why also not let the player have a look at their global luck within the game ?
Players are always complaining they have no luck, or that they never roll this or that well. Showing them the hard data may make them shut their mouth and better thing their actions ?

Why not have all the dice rolls stored somewhere, showing what the die roll was for what the result was ?

For example :
Germany, Air to Air, 2d10, 18, AX
Germany, Air to Air, 2d10, 6, DX
Germany, Air to Air, 2d10, 11, DC
USA, Search roll, 1d10, 2, Found
etc...

I always wanted to do that in real games, to make people realise that they are neither out of luck or extremely lucky, rather that they tend to remember only some results and not others.

That information is in the game record log. The players will have to dredge it out, but who rolled what when will all be there. I do not intend to do special reports from the GRL.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
2 - Choosing the major power with the front bomber/fighter to arrange units doesn't work since someone has to decide which units will be the front bomber and fighter.

3 - I could make the major power arranging the units different from the major power that selects which units to destroy/abort/clear through, though that doesn't seem quite right to me.

Maybe have a choice proposed to the player ? He would have to click on the flag of the decision maker Major Power before arranging the air units ?

Catch 22: who clicks on the flag?

At some point there has to be someone who makes a decision, where that person is identified by the computer.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

In air to air battles where surprise points are available, port attacks, Ground strike intercepts etc. there must exist a mechanism to allocate such points to modify the odds.

Lars

Surprise points only affect naval air-to-air combat (including port attacks). They do not affect air-to-air combat for ground strikes, ground support, strategic bombing, etc..

I haven't change this recently. The code for air-to-air combat executes the same way for all air missions as it does for port attacks. That is, the first time that surprise points might be used in the sequence of play (when processing an air mission), the program runs through the surprise point calculation and then presents the winning side with the Surprise Points (usage) form. There the player chooses to Avoid Combat, Increase/Decrease air-to-air combat table column, etc.. If later in the sequence of play another opportunity arises for spending surprise points (and more than 1 exists), the winning player sees that form again.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
2 - Choosing the major power with the front bomber/fighter to arrange units doesn't work since someone has to decide which units will be the front bomber and fighter.

3 - I could make the major power arranging the units different from the major power that selects which units to destroy/abort/clear through, though that doesn't seem quite right to me.

Maybe have a choice proposed to the player ? He would have to click on the flag of the decision maker Major Power before arranging the air units ?

Catch 22: who clicks on the flag?

At some point there has to be someone who makes a decision, where that person is identified by the computer.

The players decide.
I prefer the players deciding rather than the computer deciding.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Froonp
Hey, I had an idea.
Why also not let the player have a look at their global luck within the game ?
Players are always complaining they have no luck, or that they never roll this or that well. Showing them the hard data may make them shut their mouth and better thing their actions ?

Why not have all the dice rolls stored somewhere, showing what the die roll was for what the result was ?

For example :
Germany, Air to Air, 2d10, 18, AX
Germany, Air to Air, 2d10, 6, DX
Germany, Air to Air, 2d10, 11, DC
USA, Search roll, 1d10, 2, Found
etc...

I always wanted to do that in real games, to make people realise that they are neither out of luck or extremely lucky, rather that they tend to remember only some results and not others.

That information is in the game record log. The players will have to dredge it out, but who rolled what when will all be there. I do not intend to do special reports from the GRL.

Maybe for MWiF 2 ?

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Froonp


Maybe have a choice proposed to the player ? He would have to click on the flag of the decision maker Major Power before arranging the air units ?

Catch 22: who clicks on the flag?

At some point there has to be someone who makes a decision, where that person is identified by the computer.

The players decide.
I prefer the players deciding rather than the computer deciding.

No.

We do not want the program polling all the players on a side for every air-to-air combat that involves units controlled by different players. This comes up for naval combat losses too. And I am sure there are many other instances where more than 1 player's units are affected by a decision.

It is far better to have an automated mechanism that designates one player as the decision maker. If the players want to converse among themselves to reach a decision, that's ok; but there is one designated "decision maker" as far as the program is concerned. Only one player is authorized to enter the decision.

[composer99]

Accumulation of Luck Statistics
This would be an interesting thing to see dredged up from the Game Record Logs. Maybe some programmer fan of MWiF can create a utility to do so.
 
Air Combat Stuff
In terms of who decides the arrangement of air units for a side during air combat, that obviously only matters for groups of units from multiple major powers in the same combat. The obvious choice is for the player with the most participating units to decide. After that, if there is a default decision maker (e.g. Germany for Axis, US for Allies) they would pick.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: composer99

Accumulation of Luck Statistics
This would be an interesting thing to see dredged up from the Game Record Logs. Maybe some programmer fan of MWiF can create a utility to do so.

Air Combat Stuff
In terms of who decides the arrangement of air units for a side during air combat, that obviously only matters for groups of units from multiple major powers in the same combat. The obvious choice is for the player with the most participating units to decide. After that, if there is a default decision maker (e.g. Germany for Axis, US for Allies) they would pick.

I was looking a little closer at the code and it appears to use the player (on the side) with the most fighters at times and the player with the most bombers at other times. I would like to make that a sinlge person, for two reasons: (1) it is easier to code, and (2) it is less confusing to the players.

I propose the following process for deteremining the air-to-air combat leader for each side (A2A leader):

1 - The A2A leader is the major power with the most air units in the air-to-air combat at the beginning of the air-to-air combat subphase.
2 - In case of ties, the major power whose air units cost the most BPs decides.
3 - In case of ties, the permanent team leader decides. [The permanent team leader makes other decisions, like whether to ask for a reroll for initative.]
4 - The calculation of the A2A leader for each side is made before any units are shot down/cleared through/aborted.
5 - The A2A leader for each side does not change during the air-to-air combat. it does not change from one round to the next in an air-to-air combat.
6 - A2A leader makes all decisions for his side in the air-to-air combat: arranges units, chooses which units are affected, and decides whether to stay or abort at the end of each round.

Thee is also the question of which player (overall) chooses the next air-to-air combat to be fought. This does not apply to naval air combat since that is a subphase of a naval engagement and each naval engagement is fought to a standstill before the next naval engagement takes place. Which means that there is only one location "to choose from" for every naval air combat.

I propose that that be the major power on the phasing side who has the most air units flying in all the air-to-air combats chooses the next air-to-air combat to be fought. Ties are broken the same way as for the A2A leader. Just as for the A2A leader, once this has been decided, it does not change at the completion of an air-to-air combat - the same major power chooses the 2nd, 3rd, etc..

Yes, these proposals are self-serving in that they are easier to code. But even more important is for things to be predictable to the players. having the A2A leader switch during air-to-air combat over a hex, would be confusing to me, and I assume it would also be confusing to players.

[hakon]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
That information is in the game record log. The players will have to dredge it out, but who rolled what when will all be there. I do not intend to do special reports from the GRL.

Maybe for MWiF 2 ?

Maybe just have filters on the GRL? Possible filters:
- Show player chat
- Show turn progression
- Show system/network events (save/load/players connecting/disconnecting, etc)
- Show dice rolls

And for debug purposes (could be disabled in the regular game only to be disabled by a cheat code, or simply by a "Displaying these log events is considered cheating. Proceed? Y/N?"):
- Show debug info
- Show AI events and decisions (such as overall AI strategy selection, triggers selected etc)

Also, it sould be possible to restrict chat with other players, but at the sender and reciever end. (The sender should have the option to send a message to allies only, by something like:
/allies Hirohito, can you try to help me set Suez out of supply this turn?

Which would be displayed like this in all axis logs (in a seprate color, green for instance):
Adolph (allies) : Hirohito, can you try to help me set Suez out of supply this turn?

Dice rolls would probably be only one entry, but at least being able to display ONLY the dice rolls would be some help, and the other filters would be useful too.

etc?

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: hakon

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
That information is in the game record log. The players will have to dredge it out, but who rolled what when will all be there. I do not intend to do special reports from the GRL.

Maybe for MWiF 2 ?

Maybe just have filters on the GRL? Possible filters:
- Show player chat
- Show turn progression
- Show system/network events (save/load/players connecting/disconnecting, etc)
- Show dice rolls

And for debug purposes (could be disabled in the regular game only to be disabled by a cheat code, or simply by a "Displaying these log events is considered cheating. Proceed? Y/N?"):
- Show debug info
- Show AI events and decisions (such as overall AI strategy selection, triggers selected etc)

Also, it sould be possible to restrict chat with other players, but at the sender and reciever end. (The sender should have the option to send a message to allies only, by something like:
/allies Hirohito, can you try to help me set Suez out of supply this turn?

Which would be displayed like this in all axis logs (in a seprate color, green for instance):
Adolph (allies) : Hirohito, can you try to help me set Suez out of supply this turn?

Dice rolls would probably be only one entry, but at least being able to display ONLY the dice rolls would be some help, and the other filters would be useful too.

etc?

The game record log only contains decisions that affect the game state. Chat between players is not included. Nor does it store a lot of the fumbling around prior to committing to a decision.

Die rolls appear in dozens of places, with the purpose of the die roll (e.g., weather, initiative, ground strike) and usually the circumstances too (e.g., which column of the CRT).

My intent for the GRL is to be able to replay the game, but in a stripped down version of just what actually happened to change the game state.

The are 483 different GRL record types (I counted yesterday). That number will probably change over time as I remove spurious types that I expected I would need, and add some that I forgot to include. I expect the final number to be around 500.

[wfzimmerman]

ORIGINAL: hakon

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
That information is in the game record log. The players will have to dredge it out, but who rolled what when will all be there. I do not intend to do special reports from the GRL.

Maybe for MWiF 2 ?

Maybe just have filters on the GRL? Possible filters:
- Show player chat
- Show turn progression
- Show system/network events (save/load/players connecting/disconnecting, etc)
- Show dice rolls

the GRL is a CSV, right? so can't you use Excel's filtering features to do the filtering?

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: wfzimmerman
the GRL is a CSV, right? so can't you use Excel's filtering features to do the filtering?

If so, it would be great !

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: wfzimmerman

ORIGINAL: hakon

ORIGINAL: Froonp


Maybe for MWiF 2 ?

Maybe just have filters on the GRL? Possible filters:
- Show player chat
- Show turn progression
- Show system/network events (save/load/players connecting/disconnecting, etc)
- Show dice rolls

the GRL is a CSV, right? so can't you use Excel's filtering features to do the filtering?

The GRl is a comma separated file, but each line/ record is quite irregular. Some are short (3 items) , some are very long (over 100 items). For instance, the weather roll has 3 or 4 data fields, while the optional rule set has over 80.

Basically, column headings would be meaningless.

All the raw data is there, but it would be hard to extract using any general purpose software (like a spreadsheet). A report generator application designed specifically for the GRL data records/fields would be the best approach.

EDIT: the beta testers have copies of the GRL - a new one is generated each time you start a game.

[SemperAugustus]

If each row of the GRL showed what type of row it was it should be trivial to use a filter in excel combined with the row type information to datamine it.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: SemperAugustus

If each row of the GRL showed what type of row it was it should be trivial to use a filter in excel combined with the row type information to datamine it.

Yes, that is how it is set up; the first field denotes record type.

As for 'trivial', there are going to be around 500 different "row types".

[Ullern]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: composer99

Accumulation of Luck Statistics
This would be an interesting thing to see dredged up from the Game Record Logs. Maybe some programmer fan of MWiF can create a utility to do so.

Air Combat Stuff
In terms of who decides the arrangement of air units for a side during air combat, that obviously only matters for groups of units from multiple major powers in the same combat. The obvious choice is for the player with the most participating units to decide. After that, if there is a default decision maker (e.g. Germany for Axis, US for Allies) they would pick.

I was looking a little closer at the code and it appears to use the player (on the side) with the most fighters at times and the player with the most bombers at other times. I would like to make that a sinlge person, for two reasons: (1) it is easier to code, and (2) it is less confusing to the players.

I propose the following process for deteremining the air-to-air combat leader for each side (A2A leader):

1 - The A2A leader is the major power with the most air units in the air-to-air combat at the beginning of the air-to-air combat subphase.
2 - In case of ties, the major power whose air units cost the most BPs decides.
3 - In case of ties, the permanent team leader decides. [The permanent team leader makes other decisions, like whether to ask for a reroll for initative.]
4 - The calculation of the A2A leader for each side is made before any units are shot down/cleared through/aborted.
5 - The A2A leader for each side does not change during the air-to-air combat. it does not change from one round to the next in an air-to-air combat.
6 - A2A leader makes all decisions for his side in the air-to-air combat: arranges units, chooses which units are affected, and decides whether to stay or abort at the end of each round.

Thee is also the question of which player (overall) chooses the next air-to-air combat to be fought. This does not apply to naval air combat since that is a subphase of a naval engagement and each naval engagement is fought to a standstill before the next naval engagement takes place. Which means that there is only one location "to choose from" for every naval air combat.

I propose that that be the major power on the phasing side who has the most air units flying in all the air-to-air combats chooses the next air-to-air combat to be fought. Ties are broken the same way as for the A2A leader. Just as for the A2A leader, once this has been decided, it does not change at the completion of an air-to-air combat - the same major power chooses the 2nd, 3rd, etc..

Yes, these proposals are self-serving in that they are easier to code. But even more important is for things to be predictable to the players. having the A2A leader switch during air-to-air combat over a hex, would be confusing to me, and I assume it would also be confusing to players.

The general idea that we don't need to poll each player one more time in a game that polls each player very often anyway, is a very good idea.

For you tie breaker suggestion, may I suggest the following:
2. In case of ties the player with most FTRs
3. In case of ties random draw.

For how the next A2A fight is choosen:
In a board game each player would play out his own A2A fights in what order he himself wanted, some multitasking between players is usually done.

I understand it that way that the MWIF plays each A2A serially?

May I then propose the following:
A) Suppose there is already an A2A leader for each fight allocated (using whatever automatic method Steve comes up with)
B) Let the Team leader choose the order of the players (or major powers, whatever is most convenient)
C) Let that player play out all the fights where he is A2A leader
D) go back to B and let the team leader select the next player or go directly to the next player (depending on how it's most easy to implement this)
E) Continue until all A2A fights done

I think the proposed method gives less polling between players, am I right?