MG usage and effects in PCK

[thewood1]

Do MG only effect the unit they are firing at or is grazing fire and beaten zones implemented. One of the big weaknesses of CMBO, some what made better in CMBB and CMAK, was the weakness of MGs in defence because they were viewed as point weapons, not area weapons. Even ASL tried to rectify this with a rules quagmire called residual fire.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: thewood1
Do MG only effect the unit they are firing at or is grazing fire and beaten zones implemented. One of the big weaknesses of CMBO, some what made better in CMBB and CMAK, was the weakness of MGs in defence because they were viewed as point weapons, not area weapons. Even ASL tried to rectify this with a rules quagmire called residual fire.

When given that question, I'll be the first to say that we also need a better HMG implementation when we do our next round of infantry combat improvements. Some kind of implementation of grazing fire and real beaten zones will have to happen in the future.

Right now, HMGs have an Area Fire box that is larger than any other "small arms" to give them some capability to create a beaten zone, but there's no grazing fire effect. HMGs do have decent firepower and are effective for their size and points, which makes them a good defensive weapon even though they are only a team in size - but it's definitely a case where we could do more to differentiate them from other infantry to give them some of their special capabilities.

With that said, they are no worse than the MGs in CM or SP, but they are also no better and making them more unique is on the wish list.

Regards,

- Erik

[thewood1]

I understand, but I would slightly disagree on later CMs.  Grazing fire was implemented in CMBB.  Not perfect, but did have some positive effect on MG in defense.  It was improved a little in CMAK.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: thewood1
I understand, but I would slightly disagree on later CMs.  Grazing fire was implemented in CMBB.  Not perfect, but did have some positive effect on MG in defense.  It was improved a little in CMAK.

Ok, I should have specified CMBO.

[Mobius]

Infantry squads really aren't a point, they are spread out over an area. The center of mass is just conveniently shown as a point. So the troops can range up to 10-15 meters or more from this point.

[thewood1]

One other question...
 
Is friendly fire represented in any form?

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: thewood1
One other question...
Is friendly fire represented in any form?

You can get blown up by your own artillery or by running over your own mines.
Maybe direct area fire, but I haven't made that mistake yet.

So going back to your road blocks. You might block things up by blowing up your own trucks or some cheap unit.

[Stridor]

ORIGINAL: thewood1

One other question...

Is friendly fire represented in any form?

The game prevents you direct firing on friendlies, however indirect fire can certainly take them out. So you have to be careful sometimes where you lob HE or mortar rounds.

[thewood1]

You mean even in area fire, you can't accidently hit some of your own men.

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: thewood1
You mean even in area fire, you can't accidently hit some of your own men.

No. He means you can't deliberately target them with direct point gun fire.

[jomni]

I think the unit will refuse the fire order when friends are in the way.
Am i right?

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: jomni
I think the unit will refuse the fire order when friends are in the way.
Am i right?

You point and click to direct fire target an enemy. You pull the red target rubber band to the target unit. I think you might get a sound clue if the target is illegal. Also, you won't get any target/range info in the lower left target info box.

[Stridor]

ORIGINAL: jomni

I think the unit will refuse the fire order when friends are in the way.
Am i right?

If you give a direct fire order from one of your units to *directly* target a friendly then the target line goes grey indicating that you can't target here.

If you target near to a friendly with area fire weapons (MG, Mortar, HE, etc, etc) which have an area of effect, then the game will quite happily let you do that and your friendlies will sustain area damage.

[jomni]

ORIGINAL: Stridor

ORIGINAL: jomni

I think the unit will refuse the fire order when friends are in the way.
Am i right?

If you give a direct fire order from one of your units to *directly* target a friendly then the target line goes grey indicating that you can't target here.

If you target near to a friendly with area fire weapons (MG, Mortar, HE, etc, etc) which have an area of effect, then the game will quite happily let you do that and your friendlies will sustain area damage.

sounds good

[Mraah]

There was an old 70's miniatures game called "Follow Me!" (man-to-man) that allowed you to use a beaton zone for an MG. You could define the width and length and place this on the gaming floor.

If you guys decide on such a feature you could use the same routine as Artillery (open/closed). When you select FIRE, you can have two Area Zones or Beaton Zones to select from (see screen shot). Just like area fire, it would display the blue "box" so you could line up the center with your targets.

Any thoughts?

Rob

EDIT NOTE : You could get fancy, and allow the zone to be stretched and rotated after defining the center.

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: Mraah
There was an old 70's miniatures game called "Follow Me!" (man-to-man) that allowed you to use a beaton zone for an MG. You could define the width and length and place this on the gaming floor.

I have a copy of those rules. It's a man to man level game.

[Mraah]

ORIGINAL: Mobius
I have a copy of those rules. It's a man to man level game.

Ha ha!! I thought I was the only one who had that game! My copy is buried somewhere in a box up in the attic.

I know it's man-to-man but the idea seemed good.

If we took and example of the MG42 HMG from PCOWS (screenshot below) ... at 200m
Considering it's applying a To Hit 2, F Pwr 1 on a single infantry target (size 20m square average) ...
A beaton zone that would be 4x as wide (80x20) could be rolled as To Hit 8 with same F Pwr (1) or (0).

I dunno ... Any thoughts Mobius? Has this every come up in your table top over the past 30 years?

EDIT NOTE : You can see that between 30-100m it would be deadly to a Russian wave! One game turn can "beat" 4 squads line-abreast to pulp.



Thanks for reply!!
Rob

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: Mraah
I dunno ... Any thoughts Mobius? Has this every come up in your table top over the past 30 years?

Yes, in PW we handle it like this:
12.8
For LMG a circle area 38m in diameter is the beaten zone. One target squad in this zone is chosen as the main target. It receives the full killpower if hit. If a second unit is in the area it receives killpower -1 if hit.

For MMG or HMG a circle area 38m in diameter is the beaten zone. One target squad in this zone is chosen as the main target. It receives the full killpower if hit. If a second unit is in the area it receives killpower -1 if hit. If a third unit is in the area it receives killpower -2 if hit.

The problem faced in formulating rules of MG fire is that it is both aimed fire and area fire. If it was just area fire it would simply be a matter of fragments per unit area per time. Just like HE area fire. It wouldn't matter what range the area was from the firer.

[thewood1]

ORIGINAL: Mobius

ORIGINAL: Mraah
I dunno ... Any thoughts Mobius? Has this every come up in your table top over the past 30 years?

Yes, in PW we handle it like this:
12.8
For LMG a circle area 38m in diameter is the beaten zone. One target squad in this zone is chosen as the main target. It receives the full killpower if hit. If a second unit is in the area it receives killpower -1 if hit.

For MMG or HMG a circle area 38m in diameter is the beaten zone. One target squad in this zone is chosen as the main target. It receives the full killpower if hit. If a second unit is in the area it receives killpower -1 if hit. If a third unit is in the area it receives killpower -2 if hit.

The problem faced in formulating rules of MG fire is that it is both aimed fire and area fire. If it was just area fire it would simply be a matter of fragments per unit area per time. Just like HE area fire. It wouldn't matter what range the area was from the firer.

That's cool. Were those rules translated to PCK?

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: thewood1
That's cool. Were those rules translated to PCK?

Only in the sense that we allow a much larger area fire box for HMGs than other infantry. That can allow you to get 2-3 squads in the area. Each has a lower chance of being hit or damaged than with direct fire.