MWIF Game Interface Design

World in Flames is the computer version of Australian Design Group classic board game. World In Flames is a highly detailed game covering the both Europe and Pacific Theaters of Operations during World War II. If you want grand strategy this game is for you.

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RE: Memo

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: ullern
ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: composer99

Accumulation of Luck Statistics
This would be an interesting thing to see dredged up from the Game Record Logs. Maybe some programmer fan of MWiF can create a utility to do so.

Air Combat Stuff
In terms of who decides the arrangement of air units for a side during air combat, that obviously only matters for groups of units from multiple major powers in the same combat. The obvious choice is for the player with the most participating units to decide. After that, if there is a default decision maker (e.g. Germany for Axis, US for Allies) they would pick.
I was looking a little closer at the code and it appears to use the player (on the side) with the most fighters at times and the player with the most bombers at other times. I would like to make that a sinlge person, for two reasons: (1) it is easier to code, and (2) it is less confusing to the players.

I propose the following process for deteremining the air-to-air combat leader for each side (A2A leader):

1 - The A2A leader is the major power with the most air units in the air-to-air combat at the beginning of the air-to-air combat subphase.
2 - In case of ties, the major power whose air units cost the most BPs decides.
3 - In case of ties, the permanent team leader decides. [The permanent team leader makes other decisions, like whether to ask for a reroll for initative.]
4 - The calculation of the A2A leader for each side is made before any units are shot down/cleared through/aborted.
5 - The A2A leader for each side does not change during the air-to-air combat. it does not change from one round to the next in an air-to-air combat.
6 - A2A leader makes all decisions for his side in the air-to-air combat: arranges units, chooses which units are affected, and decides whether to stay or abort at the end of each round.

Thee is also the question of which player (overall) chooses the next air-to-air combat to be fought. This does not apply to naval air combat since that is a subphase of a naval engagement and each naval engagement is fought to a standstill before the next naval engagement takes place. Which means that there is only one location "to choose from" for every naval air combat.

I propose that that be the major power on the phasing side who has the most air units flying in all the air-to-air combats chooses the next air-to-air combat to be fought. Ties are broken the same way as for the A2A leader. Just as for the A2A leader, once this has been decided, it does not change at the completion of an air-to-air combat - the same major power chooses the 2nd, 3rd, etc..

Yes, these proposals are self-serving in that they are easier to code. But even more important is for things to be predictable to the players. having the A2A leader switch during air-to-air combat over a hex, would be confusing to me, and I assume it would also be confusing to players.

The general idea that we don't need to poll each player one more time in a game that polls each player very often anyway, is a very good idea.

For you tie breaker suggestion, may I suggest the following:
2. In case of ties the player with most FTRs
3. In case of ties random draw.

For how the next A2A fight is choosen:
In a board game each player would play out his own A2A fights in what order he himself wanted, some multitasking between players is usually done.

I understand it that way that the MWIF plays each A2A serially?

May I then propose the following:
A) Suppose there is already an A2A leader for each fight allocated (using whatever automatic method Steve comes up with)
B) Let the Team leader choose the order of the players (or major powers, whatever is most convenient)
C) Let that player play out all the fights where he is A2A leader
D) go back to B and let the team leader select the next player or go directly to the next player (depending on how it's most easy to implement this)
E) Continue until all A2A fights done

I think the proposed method gives less polling between players, am I right?
I keep going back and forth on whether fighters or bombers/ATRs are more important.[&:] Yes, it is an air-to-air combat so the fighters are important. But the only reason the fight is taking place is so the bombers can complete their mission. That is why I have suggested total number of air units flying (for who decides which fight to do next) and total number flying over a hex/sea area for who is the leader for each side.

If a perfect tie exists, random is a viable alternative.
---------------
Consider A done. When each air-to-air combat location is identified, a team leader for each side is determined and stored as part of the data for that combat. The mechanism for deciding on which major power is still under discussion herein.

Your proposal would have Germany fight all her A2A combats, then Japan, then Italy. That has some attractiveness, but it constrains the players in that Italy can not do its A2A combat between two German A2A combats. I do not want to impose that constraint on the players - since it isn't in the rules.

Instead, I see a single major power 'elected' to make the decision in B. Step C would be for a single combat location. There is a very small increase in overhead here, but it should be so small as to be invisible to the players.
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I have created a whole host of messages for the players for this process. If you are deciding, you see a prompt to make the decision (e.g., "Choose which Axis bomber to clear through."). If you are not deciding, then you are informed as to the delay (e.g., "Waiting for the Commonwealth to decide which bomber to clear through."). Essentially, the program will keep everyone informed as to what is happening and who is deciding. This should permit the allies of the decision maker to pipe up with their thoughts via Chat (e.g., "Destroy the fighter!").
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Jimm
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RE: Memo

Post by Jimm »

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


I keep going back and forth on whether fighters or bombers/ATRs are more important.[&:] Yes, it is an air-to-air combat so the fighters are important. But the only reason the fight is taking place is so the bombers can complete their mission. That is why I have suggested total number of air units flying (for who decides which fight to do next) and total number flying over a hex/sea area for who is the leader for each side.

If a perfect tie exists, random is a viable alternative.
---------------

The bombers set the strategic context, I'd go with them.
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RE: Memo

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: Jimm

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


I keep going back and forth on whether fighters or bombers/ATRs are more important.[&:] Yes, it is an air-to-air combat so the fighters are important. But the only reason the fight is taking place is so the bombers can complete their mission. That is why I have suggested total number of air units flying (for who decides which fight to do next) and total number flying over a hex/sea area for who is the leader for each side.

If a perfect tie exists, random is a viable alternative.
---------------

The bombers set the strategic context, I'd go with them.
Other votes? I have 1 for fighters and 1 for bombers. The change in the code is a single variable name.
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RE: Memo

Post by Froonp »

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Jimm

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


I keep going back and forth on whether fighters or bombers/ATRs are more important.[&:] Yes, it is an air-to-air combat so the fighters are important. But the only reason the fight is taking place is so the bombers can complete their mission. That is why I have suggested total number of air units flying (for who decides which fight to do next) and total number flying over a hex/sea area for who is the leader for each side.

If a perfect tie exists, random is a viable alternative.
---------------

The bombers set the strategic context, I'd go with them.
Other votes? I have 1 for fighters and 1 for bombers. The change in the code is a single variable name.
I'm abstaining finally, as the most important is simply that the players talk between themselves for the decisions. And I'm not sure to have understood all the discussion.

I'll just say that in our games, we let the player who has the fighting FTR (the front FTR) roll the A2A dice, as he is responsible for the outcome inflicted on the enemy. When the enemy rolls against us we talk in between the involved players to decide what happens, who get destroyed or cleared through, or whether to bounce or not.
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RE: Memo

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: Froonp
ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Jimm




The bombers set the strategic context, I'd go with them.
Other votes? I have 1 for fighters and 1 for bombers. The change in the code is a single variable name.
I'm abstaining finally, as the most important is simply that the players talk between themselves for the decisions. And I'm not sure to have understood all the discussion.

I'll just say that in our games, we let the player who has the fighting FTR (the front FTR) roll the A2A dice, as he is responsible for the outcome inflicted on the enemy. When the enemy rolls against us we talk in between the involved players to decide what happens, who get destroyed or cleared through, or whether to bounce or not.
Right. That is what I expect will happen. Once the group decides, then the designated "decision maker" moves the mouse and clicks a button.
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RE: Memo

Post by Norman42 »

we let the player who has the fighting FTR (the front FTR) roll the A2A dice, as he is responsible for the outcome inflicted on the enemy.
 
This is our method as well.
 
If a choice is needed, I'd say go with # of bombers.  As mentioned above, they are the more strategicly valuable unit involved.
-------------

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RE: Memo

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: Norman42
we let the player who has the fighting FTR (the front FTR) roll the A2A dice, as he is responsible for the outcome inflicted on the enemy.

This is our method as well.

If a choice is needed, I'd say go with # of bombers.  As mentioned above, they are the more strategicly valuable unit involved.
I was thinking of using build point costs to break ties, but that is going to work out to the same result as using bombers 99% of the time.
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RE: Memo

Post by Ullern »

ORIGINAL: Norman42
we let the player who has the fighting FTR (the front FTR) roll the A2A dice, as he is responsible for the outcome inflicted on the enemy.

This is our method as well.

If a choice is needed, I'd say go with # of bombers. As mentioned above, they are the more strategicly valuable unit involved.

Interesting to see that everyone posted so far let the player with the best FTR roll the dice. My group tend to let the same player do all the decision making in the combat too, which was different from the two other who posted, who let the ones with bombers decide. I am going to guess that this difference stems from the fact that my group is playing with WIFcon Time rule (added about 10% time, but not more), which makes us minimize the war by committee issues in WIF.

Everything takes time. And this leads me to a question:

Suppose we could reduce the time needed to play an impulse by one third by reducing the number of meddling between players, and affecting hopefully no rules, only imposing some limitiation on when and where negotiations could be made. Would it be better?

I think the fun per time unit ratio is important. And my concern at the moment is mostly about the game beeing too slow phased.

(And Frankly I didn't understand the Italian a2a in between two German A2A fights example you had earlier Steve. What is the point of allowing an Italian a2a combat in between two German A2A fights?)
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RE: Memo

Post by composer99 »

ORIGINAL: ullern
(And Frankly I didn't understand the Italian a2a in between two German A2A fights example you had earlier Steve. What is the point of allowing an Italian a2a combat in between two German A2A fights?)

Because the active side can resolve air combats in a step in any order they please, as per RAW (someone correct me if I am wrong. [:)]), I imagine.
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RE: Memo

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: composer99

ORIGINAL: ullern
(And Frankly I didn't understand the Italian a2a in between two German A2A fights example you had earlier Steve. What is the point of allowing an Italian a2a combat in between two German A2A fights?)

Because the active side can resolve air combats in a step in any order they please, as per RAW (someone correct me if I am wrong. [:)]), I imagine.
Yes. And it might make a difference on how much risk you are willing to take in other air-to-air combats.

For instance, having just seen Germany lose a couple of fighters in a ground strike on Lille, you might want to see if any Italian fighters survive a ground strike on Marseilles before making decisions about whether to expose more German fighters in a ground strike on Paris. By 'expose' I mean whether you continue to fight on or abort at the earliest possible moment. [You are already committed to the air-to-air combats - they can't be avoided completely.]
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RE: Memo

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: ullern
ORIGINAL: Norman42
we let the player who has the fighting FTR (the front FTR) roll the A2A dice, as he is responsible for the outcome inflicted on the enemy.

This is our method as well.

If a choice is needed, I'd say go with # of bombers. As mentioned above, they are the more strategicly valuable unit involved.

Interesting to see that everyone posted so far let the player with the best FTR roll the dice. My group tend to let the same player do all the decision making in the combat too, which was different from the two other who posted, who let the ones with bombers decide. I am going to guess that this difference stems from the fact that my group is playing with WIFcon Time rule (added about 10% time, but not more), which makes us minimize the war by committee issues in WIF.

Everything takes time. And this leads me to a question:

Suppose we could reduce the time needed to play an impulse by one third by reducing the number of meddling between players, and affecting hopefully no rules, only imposing some limitiation on when and where negotiations could be made. Would it be better?

I think the fun per time unit ratio is important. And my concern at the moment is mostly about the game beeing too slow phased.

(And Frankly I didn't understand the Italian a2a in between two German A2A fights example you had earlier Steve. What is the point of allowing an Italian a2a combat in between two German A2A fights?)
Yes. That is what I intend too. Partly for speed of play, but more importantly for predictability as to who has to move and click his mouse.
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RE: Memo

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

Here is a revised version of the Air Attack form. It is used to show the results of strategic bombing, carpet bombing, ground strike, paradrop, air transport, and ground support air missions.

This screen shot is from strategic bombing. The Result is no effect. The target hex was Changsha, which has a flame image displayed in the center of the hex on the insert map. Because this form serves several purposes, it has a few extra elements. I see no harm in showing the ground units during strategic bombing. They are important when doing most of the other air missions.

Some day, I'll convert the bland Results text into a table listing the possible strategic targets in the hex (e.g., factories, oil resources, saved build points, etc.). That will give the player a better understanding of what was attacked, as well as what was destroyed. He may want to come back again the next time he is the phasing side to attack anything that still remains.

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RE: Memo

Post by lomyrin »

In this strategic bombing attack in Chang Sha there seems to some information missing. The hex show '5' units there. Presumably that is the 3 Chinese land units and the Japanese NAV. The 5th units is what ?  A saved oil or BP ?
 
Since there is no factory in ChangSha why would you stratbomb there unless on saved oil or BP.  Kunming or Chungking are more likely targets.
 
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RE: Memo

Post by Froonp »

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

In this strategic bombing attack in Chang Sha there seems to some information missing. The hex show '5' units there. Presumably that is the 3 Chinese land units and the Japanese NAV. The 5th units is what ?  A saved oil or BP ?

Since there is no factory in ChangSha why would you stratbomb there unless on saved oil or BP.  Kunming or Chungking are more likely targets.

Lars
I believe that there is a factory in Changsha.
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RE: Memo

Post by Froonp »

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I see no harm in showing the ground units during strategic bombing. They are important when doing most of the other air missions.
Yes, but seeing land (or other) units in the Strat bombing form is weird anyway IMO.
If the player wants to see what's in the hex, he has a lot of ways to do that : The unit in hex Form, the Flyouts. Why not have the flyouts available from inside the Form ?
I think that it would be better if the "Units in target hexe" were only units that are concerned by the attack.
For example, showing all the ships in an hex that is being Ground Struk seems weird. Seing land units in a hex that is being Port Attacked or Strat bombed is weird.

Maybe you could show a factory counter for each factory present in the hex for Strat Bombing.

For Port attack, you should show naval units (and maybe not the SUBs in Major ports).
For Ground Support, and Paradrops you should show land units only (as they are the only ones affected by that kind of mission).
For Ground Strike and Carpet Bombing you should sown land and aircraft units (as they are the only ones affected by that kind of mission).
For Air Transport you should show all the units in the hex, land, aircraft and ships.
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RE: Memo

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

In this strategic bombing attack in Chang Sha there seems to some information missing. The hex show '5' units there. Presumably that is the 3 Chinese land units and the Japanese NAV. The 5th units is what ?  A saved oil or BP ?

Since there is no factory in ChangSha why would you stratbomb there unless on saved oil or BP.  Kunming or Chungking are more likely targets.

Lars
The 5th unit is a Japanese fighter providing cover for the Nav Air.
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RE: Memo

Post by lomyrin »

Re the factory in Chang Sha I wrote without thinking first it seems, there is a factory there although it usually ends up destroyed.
 
The fifth unit being a Japanese Ftr as escort still ought to be visible to avoid guessing and to show the reason for the Chinese Ftr in range to not intercpet.
 
Lars
 
 
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RE: Memo

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: Froonp
ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I see no harm in showing the ground units during strategic bombing. They are important when doing most of the other air missions.
Yes, but seeing land (or other) units in the Strat bombing form is weird anyway IMO.
If the player wants to see what's in the hex, he has a lot of ways to do that : The unit in hex Form, the Flyouts. Why not have the flyouts available from inside the Form ?
I think that it would be better if the "Units in target hexe" were only units that are concerned by the attack.
For example, showing all the ships in an hex that is being Ground Struk seems weird. Seing land units in a hex that is being Port Attacked or Strat bombed is weird.

Maybe you could show a factory counter for each factory present in the hex for Strat Bombing.

For Port attack, you should show naval units (and maybe not the SUBs in Major ports).
For Ground Support, and Paradrops you should show land units only (as they are the only ones affected by that kind of mission).
For Ground Strike and Carpet Bombing you should sown land and aircraft units (as they are the only ones affected by that kind of mission).
For Air Transport you should show all the units in the hex, land, aircraft and ships.
Using counter depictions for factories, oil resources, etc. is a good idea. I was going to make a table, but the pictures would be better.

I already had naval units edited out.

Another reason I want to use unit depictions , is that I can place text strings under the unit pictures describing their status: Damaged, Detroyed, Struck, ..

This form is not used for port attacks. Those results are shown using the naval combat results form.
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RE: Memo

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

I was debugging this form and in the process I revised it quite a bit. It is used for selecting units from a group of units at different points in the sequence of play. This is a primary way of selecting a group of naval units for movement.

Here I have deselected the units with a range less than 4, so 19 of the 23 units in the port have been selected.

Note the different filters for naval unit types, sea sections (used when selecting units for inclusion in naval combat) and countries.

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RE: Memo

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

2nd and last in the series.

Here is the same hex as shown using the naval review details form. This shows all 25 units, including the marine units.

Now that I have debugged the other form (Select Units), I'll work on implementing the capability to pick up units using the NRD form. This would let you place the marine corps on the transport and the marine division on a surface ship (probably one of the weak light cruisers).

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