Soviet AT Rifles

[Capitaine]

I'm not complaining, but just wondering what kind of ammo these babies are firing?

In the first German Kharkov campaign scn, so far I lost one PzIV to an ATR hit that knocked out the main gun and crew abandoned; another PzIV to an ATR turret hit causing an explosion, and a 251 H/T to an ATR that first knocked out its MG, then penetrated its hull and caused an explosion. In addition... one was shooting at a 50mm mortar team and its rounds were exploding around it like a mortar round! I thought these things were fairly weak, but they've accounted for nearly all my losses so far! I took out all the AT guns with little problem but wow, ATRs! [X(]

[Erik Rutins]

Mobius can comment more on these as he added some more detail to their stats during development. However, they vary pretty widely in effectiveness from the early to the mid-late war. Halftracks are always going to have some problems with them. Infantry has nothing to worry about in general, your mortar team was pretty safe (ATR firepower is -3). Tanks though are usually most likely to loose a track to them rather than anything else. With that said...

What year was this, what type of Panzer IV and what time of ATRs were you facing? If you had some of the earlier types of Panzer IVs in 1942 and they were the 1942+ style ATRs (PTRS-42a) at close range, they can do some damage. Within 150 meters, they have a 4 penetration. Usually it will be less than that but it has a very small chance of also going as high as 8 on a perfect critical hit. In contrast, the 1939 model has a penetration of 2 out to 50 meters and lower after that. A rapid rate of fire of course makes critical hits appear a bit more often too.

Take the Panzer IVE, it has turret armor of 3,4 and 4 on the front and 2,2 and 2 on the sides, so it's definitely possible to penetrate it.

Once you get to the Panzer IVF1 and up the armor gets quite a bit better as far as ATR vulnerability, but you can still easily lose a track.

Regards,

- Erik

[Terminus]

The Soviets were the only nation to continue using anti-tank rifles until the end of the war. Guess they liked them...

Started with a steel-cored AP round and then moved up to tungsten.

http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/smallarms/antitank.htm

[Capitaine]

Being the first scn in the German Kharkov cam, it's 1942 and the PzIVs are IVEs.  I knew the H/Ts would be a little vulnerable, and that a main gun could be hit (F Kill), but the turret penetration/explosion really got my attention. [:D]   None of the fatal shots were very close range; maybe 150m+ for the tanks and longer for the H/T.
 
I don't doubt the values, just wanting to know more about these things due to their apparent lethality.

[Hertston]

I saw a fascinating post on AT rifles somewhere in the last couple of days but I'm d*mned if I can find it again. The article gave extraordinary numbers for the German tanks out of service (rather than knocked out as such), including Tigers, because of AT rifle hits on the viewports, not to mention face and eye injuries to crew.

[FNG]

IIRC they were still fitting armoured skirts to Panthers specifically to give the wheels and tracks better protection against Soviet ATRs.

[Mobius]

Unfortunately the web source for most of this (Russian Battlefield) has gone away and the Wayback archive doesn't have it. Luckily I backup with hard copies most web reference matter.
Here is a image of the Russian AT rifle data from the RBF.

[Capitaine]

Well, I figure it's a ROF thing.  I've lost the rest of my PzIV platoon to ATR "brew-ups" on turret hits (3 tanks in one turn).  These things are deadly and I have to design a new approach to confront them.  They're far more deadly than AT guns due to their ROF and small size (apparently).

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: Capitaine
Well, I figure it's a ROF thing.  I've lost the rest of my PzIV platoon to ATR "brew-ups" on turret hits (3 tanks in one turn).  These things are deadly and I have to design a new approach to confront them.  They're far more deadly than AT guns due to their ROF and small size (apparently).

You are probably playing the first German campaign scenario. There is a hornets nest of them right in the middle houses. I generally steer clear of them with armor and go around them. I let the infantry or artillery handle them.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: Capitaine
Well, I figure it's a ROF thing.  I've lost the rest of my PzIV platoon to ATR "brew-ups" on turret hits (3 tanks in one turn).  These things are deadly and I have to design a new approach to confront them.  They're far more deadly than AT guns due to their ROF and small size (apparently).

Yes, it can be an education the first time you have to deal with them though that' a pretty harsh one you got there, did you end up in close range before spotting them? They are definitely tougher to spot than AT guns. Your Panzers are better off standing back a bit when you encounter them, or firing some smoke and withdrawing. Send some infantry forward to help keep them spotted and engaged while you pound at them with HE from outside their best effective range. Their accuracy and penetration drops off much more quickly than yours and that makes a big difference in terms of their effectiveness.

Regards,

- Erik

[Capitaine]

Will do, Erik.  I measured the range just in case they did me in again and it was approx. 130m against all three tanks.  I believe that's within their lethal range so engaging w/ afvs may have to be well beyond that.  Don't mind learning valuable lessons like this, though.
 
I didn't take a lot of the optional units for this scenario but seeing how it's playing now I may need more assets, partic. the artillery.  A pretty tough nut after all.

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: Capitaine
Will do, Erik.  I measured the range just in case they did me in again and it was approx. 130m against all three tanks.  I believe that's within their lethal range so engaging w/ afvs may have to be well beyond that.  Don't mind learning valuable lessons like this, though.

I didn't take a lot of the optional units for this scenario but seeing how it's playing now I may need more assets, partic. the artillery.  A pretty tough nut after all.

Also remember thsse when you get to play Russians. They can go through AT guns sheilds at pretty good ranges. So are a way of dealing with those pesky things.

[PDiFolco]

Just checked the game data file : PTRD/PTRS have 4 pen up to 150m, enough to pierce a PzIII from front in most locations.
Even if it could pierce that amount of steel, problem is that the 14.5 mm didn't had any explosive power so it should just make a hole in most cases.
But the game only checks the penetration if I've understood the rules, so you can kill tanks with ATR much too easily. As the game system won't be redone I think that reducing AP power of ATR and smaller guns is in order to restore balance.
Just my 0.02

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: PDiFolco
But the game only checks the penetration if I've understood the rules, so you can kill tanks with ATR much too easily. As the game system won't be redone I think that reducing AP power of ATR and smaller guns is in order to restore balance.
Just my 0.02

Look at the "D" number on the gun data. It is ony a 9. Meaning a 9 or more needs to be rolled on a d10 to cause a flaming tank. So each penetration is only 20% chance. This is pretty low. You may have received many ineffective hits too.

Do you have verbose messages on? Because it will tell you that your tanks are receiving hits but it is being deflected or no damage is occuring. A warning that something could happen.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: PDiFolco
But the game only checks the penetration if I've understood the rules, so you can kill tanks with ATR much too easily. As the game system won't be redone I think that reducing AP power of ATR and smaller guns is in order to restore balance.

That's not correct actually. Assuming the shot penetrates (and the variable penetration rule means that a 4 is the "maximum ideal penetration", not the average at that range) then we check against the "D"estruction value of the shot, which is a measure of its actual destructive power. The "D" rating of the best Soviet ATR is a 9 which in effect means a 1 in 5 change of causing damage like mobiity, crewman casualty, track loss and a 1 in 10 chance of actually causing the tank to be destroyed. _On average_ you will need 10 penetrating hits with a ATR to destroy a tank, but fewer than that will likely cause enough damage to render it ineffective and cause the crew to abandon it. We could up the "D" rating to 10 on ATRs if we felt they were causing damage too often but in our testing it seemed about right vs. historical accounts.

For comparison, the T-34's gun has a "D" rating of 6.

Regards,

- Erik

[Capitaine]

ORIGINAL: Mobius

ORIGINAL: PDiFolco
But the game only checks the penetration if I've understood the rules, so you can kill tanks with ATR much too easily. As the game system won't be redone I think that reducing AP power of ATR and smaller guns is in order to restore balance.
Just my 0.02

Look at the "D" number on the gun data. It is ony a 9. Meaning a 9 or more needs to be rolled on a d10 to cause a flaming tank. So each penetration is only 20% chance. This is pretty low. You may have received many ineffective hits too.

Yes, they're hitting a lot. With a lot of hits, that 20% chance isn't bad at all. As I said, the high ROF makes them more lethal than those 47mm AT guns, at least to the PzIIs and IVs the Germans have here. I take your word for it that this is accurate performance for this weapon.

[Erik Rutins]

Well, you're facing the best Soviet AT Rifle there. It was pretty new at this time but according to our scenario designers was present in this force. The rifle one step down is significantly less effective, but this one is intended as a nasty surprise for early German armor. I'm certain you will overcome them though, they have their niche but there are lots of solutions to that problem. [:)]

[Capitaine]

Oh yeah, I'm not worried.  It was a nasty surprise as intended. [:D]

[thewood1]

Search the CMBB forums (including archives).  There were numerous discussions on the soviet ATR.  Many people were shocked at how effective they were and a lot of discussion happened with quite a few paople who really knew their stuff and brought documentation on usage and penetration capabilities.

[Mobius]

The combination of effectiveness and hard to see are tough to deal with.  Especially when their hits force your TC to button up further limiting his vision.