Flying torches

[HansBolter]

I'm getting a real kick out of how compelled you seem to be to refute me....even to the point of the catchy title for the thread. Keep up the entertainment Ike, I'm enjoying it immensely.

All the lists of Japanese aces in the world won't change the simple fact that the Wildcat was the Zeros equal.

Not it's equal in dogfighting....but it's equal as a fighter.

I will repeat it until it sinks in......you make the same mistake the Japanese did when they designed their fighters........focus on dogfighting ability to the point of exclusion of all else. The simple fact is that good dogfighting ability is only one small dimension of a WWII fighter. As it turned out in the event, it was one very small dimension as durability proved hands down that it triumphs over maneuverability.

The Wildcat was the Zeros equal...accept it and get over it!

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: Ike99

... I haven´t looked at the Allied pilots much. I know Thatch is in UV. Haven´t seen Richard Bong in a P38 yet. Is he included in UV? He should be in there for the Allied side.

There's a Lt. "Gary Grigsby," but he wasn't a real pilot. Like so many of the "pilots" in UV, the names are ficticious; apparently it was way too much bother to actually go into old flight logs and find real pilots w/real names who served in this theater.

Can't say I blame them, and I don't expect CF to change this. However, they could add some legendary aces into their real squadrons w/o that much trouble.

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

ORIGINAL: Ike99

... I haven´t looked at the Allied pilots much. I know Thatch is in UV. Haven´t seen Richard Bong in a P38 yet. Is he included in UV? He should be in there for the Allied side.

There's a Lt. "Gary Grigsby," but he wasn't a real pilot. Like so many of the "pilots" in UV, the names are ficticious; apparently it was way too much bother to actually go into old flight logs and find real pilots w/real names who served in this theater.

Can't say I blame them, and I don't expect CF to change this. However, they could add some legendary aces into their real squadrons w/o that much trouble.

I posted a while back about seeing a report that a "Major Schwanebeck" went down.

[SuluSea]

Something you'll see on the History Channel...



http://www.vf31.com/sorties/marianas_turkey_shoot.html

[Ike99]

In China and at the beginning of WW2 Japanese units did keep individual scores Joe, but later it was largely prohibited. Later in the closing days it was started up again for morale purposes including some pilots painting Allied marking on their planes similiar to the western pilots practice for victories.

I´ve got a picture of this i´ll have to find and post. A Japanese ace with stars painted on his fusalage during the home island defense period.

[Ike99]

I´m not trying to refute you Hans. You made this statement...

Which is why the Wildcats seriously defeated the Zeroes as soon as the Allied pilots learned to avoid dogfighting them and started utilizing diving slashing attacks instead.

Zeroes were flying torches looking for a place to flame out!

This is an untrue statement and anyone with a Pacific History knowledge equal to class 101 knows it isn´t true so refuting you is not worth any effort. Believe what you want in your own fantasy world about Wildcats sweeping the skies of Zeros.

Haha...I found this banner for you Hans. Feel free to place it under your post with your sig....

[barkhorn45]

With a top speed of 354 mph compared to the f4f's 318 and a climb rate of 2812 f/min compared to 2000 f/m i just don't see the equality?the a6m could initiate and break off combat basically at will.If the f4f performed so well why develop the f6f seems like the resources could have been used elsewhere.the later models of the a6m did'nt really improve on the overall perf. just increased armament and introduced self-sealing fuel tanks and armour and also strengthened the wings to improve diving abilities.It was the same aircraft that the usn would face for the duration of the war.as for the thach weave it was a defensive tactic utilising 2 aircraft each aircraft altenatly covering the other aircrafts tail.Zoom and boom tactics were used later when a/c of superior speed were developed

[tocaff]

First the progression was from an F4F-4 Wilcat to the F6F Hellcat and at war's end F8F Bearcat.

The Zero suffered greatly when the Wildcats dove on them, fired, continued to dive (faster than the Zero could) away and left.  The advantage of twisting, turning (at slower speeds) and climb rate were negated by this tactic.

The Wildcat was tough and could take punishment with it's armor and self sealing fuel tanks and at the same time could dish it out with it's firepower.

The Zero was lightly constructed with no self sealing fuel tanks so it took less to splash it while it's armament was lighter also.

Sometimes things at first glance aren't so obvious.

[barkhorn45]

I'm sorry but posted this list for general information.However with proper reference material you can determine that quite a few of the ijnaf served and died during this period.a number have unit #'s and some dates of death can be matched ie any member of tainan kokutai who was kia during 42-43 would qualify right!

[barkhorn45]

i agree that diving tactics were effective but you don't alway catch your enemy in a disadvantage the japanese were'nt stupid,. always flying at low alt. and not paying attention.Besides i think we forget there is a difference between a interceptor and a fighter and there is a difference.And before anyone say's it interceptors are'nt just anti-bomber aircraft look it up

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: barkhorn45

... Akamatsu also survived the war, He fought almost continuously for 6 years, cutting his teeth in China and fighting in almost every area of the Pacific. He flew the Zero for the most part until the Raiden (Jack) arrived on the scene, which then became his favored mount.

I suspected that many IJ Pacific aces used Chineese pilots in Soviet bi-planes as (moving) target practice; German aces also wracked-up incredible #'s of kills on the Eastern Front during the early part of the war.

Any more info/explanation on IJ "group kills"? Compared w/US partial tallies, how do group kills apply to each individual squadron pilot, or is that the issue: group kills don't apply to individual pilots.

[tocaff]

I never knew about this group kill thing until now.  How did they translate this into individual kills?  Was it based on what the pilot said he did and if so was confirmation required by another pilot?  To me this group kill thing makes for a varied shade of grays instead of a black & white situation.  All counting methods were inflated as pilots tended to get things wrong in their debriefings, but group kills?

[Ike99]

With a top speed of 354 mph compared to the f4f's 318 and a climb rate of 2812 f/min compared to 2000 f/m i just don't see the equality?the a6m could initiate and break off combat basically at will.

Don´t bother blackhorn, I´ve tried arguing with logic on these forums before but logic takes a backseat to nationalistic feelings on these forums. Granted, the thatch weave did help, and help a lot it did, however it did not equal the field.

The Wildcat held the line as best it could until the better fighters were deployed. In my own opinion, it is amazing the Wildcat pilots did as well as they did given the advantages the Zero had over it.

The group kill thing. After WW2 started the Japanese fighter units, for the most part, did away with personal score keeping.

Meaning, in their ¨official¨ records, unit history, log book, whatever you want to call it, no record of individual kills were kept.

In an Allied unit one might record ¨pilot X, shot down 3 Zeros, June 4th, 1943¨

In the Japanese fighter unit they did not record who shot down what but just recorded the unit total. ¨June 4th, 1943, 3 wildcats shot down¨

That´s all ¨group kill¨means.

So after the war was over when the historic interest arose about what specific Japanese pilot did what, historians went in, interviewed the pilots, went back to their personal diaries, their own memory, eye witness accounts, referencing with Allied unit histories, and so on...then came up with their (Japanese Pilots) personal air victories.

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: Ike99

... The group kill thing. After WW2 started the Japanese fighter units, for the most part, did away with personal score keeping.

Meaning, in their ¨official¨ records, unit history, log book, whatever you want to call it, no record of individual kills were kept.

Then all those shot down stats for individual pilots that you've been posting on this thread are either highly dubious or simply irrelevant as they don't pertain to individual fliers.

[Ike99]

Then all those shot down stats for individual pilots that you've been posting on this thread are either highly dubious or simply irrelevant as they don't pertain to individual fliers.

No Joe, the victory counts posted here pertain to the individual flyer. It´s not the group count the pilot flew with. They´re the pilots personal score. The number poster is the conservative score claimed by historians, not the pilot himself.

Hiroyoshi claimed to have shot down 150+ planes but historians put his score at either 87, or 81.

Saburo Sakai claimed 80+ victories himself but his scrutinized, accepted, actual count is 64.

and so on.

Pilots always over exagerate their scores for whatever reason, so it´s needed examine both sides records, who lost what, where, and on what day to get a more accurate idea of how many planes were actually shot down on any given day by specific pilots.

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: Ike99
No Joe, the victory counts posted here pertain to the individual flyer. It´s not the group count the pilot flew with. They´re the pilots personal score. The number poster is the conservative score claimed by historians, not the pilot himself ...

Ike, how do you know what count the pilot flew with since (officially) there were no individual scores?

"Pilot's personal score," which is based on his past recollections since no (objective) third party was posting/recording his individual kills.

That means the only real source we have is his letters, his diary, his memoirs; this is hardly objective.

[tocaff]

Oh no, not again!
 
You don't suppose we can just leave it at they were excellent pilots to have flown so many missions and lived to tell about it?

The F4F fought the Zero and from everything that's been said here seems to have held the line and gave as good as they got overall.  Therefore I'd have to draw the conclusion that each plane had strengths and weaknesses that kind of equaled out.

An excellent pilot in an inferior plane can best a poor pilot in a superior plane, etc.  So this thread can kind of go around and around, never going anywhere. 

[OG_Gleep]

Japanese tended to get things really wrong, reporting their own planes going down as "kills".

[decaro]

Don't forget the IJN victory at Midway, which lasted as long as the Empire could keep its "victorious" survivors secluded!

[tocaff]

Well according to some of the "facts" we've had thrown at us on this forum I sometimes wonder if history, as generally accepted, really happened.