F4F Wildcat

[seydlitz_slith]

"The First Team", and "The First Team and the Guadalcanal Campaign" by Lundstrom should be required reading if commenting on this issue.  The pilots liked the -3 much more than the -4, and in fact considered the -4 to be more of a pig. They also disliked the fewer seconds of fire.  As a dogfighter, the Zero was superior in range and manuverability below 180 knots. It's performance was hampered by poor aileron performance above that speed. That means that it was good in a turn fight, but died if it was match where high speed ruled.
 
Initially, pilots from both sides were good, profressional aviators. In fact, most of the American naval pilots at the start of the war routinely rotated through assignments involving different types of aircraft. In reading "The First Team" I learned that many of the fighter pilots had also flown floatplane scouts off of cruisers/BBs, divebombers, and even torpedo planes. It was not unusual to see a pilot moved from one type of unit to another depending on demand.
 
I believe that the key factor to long term American success derives from a couple of things....
1. Tactical training. After the Thatch Weave was discovered and found to work, it was deployed effectively to negate the higher manuverability of the zero.
 
2. Communications. Radios drive situational awareness. The Japanese normally removed the radios from their aircraft, so each pilot was on his own as far as staying out of trouble. Sure, they flew formations and had a refined system of hand signals and combat tactics for wingmen to protect each other, but if you read the combat accounts of the Japanese pilots, normally they wound up seperated and own their own. The radio allowed US pilots to coordinate better and also to warn fellow pilots of danger that they may not have been able to see.
 
3. Radar helped (even at Coral Sea) to at least provide warning of the raids and give the US a chance to get fighters into position or at least avoid being surprised. Even at Coral Sea, a pilot was assigned duty as Fighter Direction Control.
 
When I think about the Wildcat vs. Zero, I think about Vietnam and the F4 Phantom vs. the Mig-17. Same situation except the Phantom had gobs more power. After the US figured out the proper tactics and trained the pilots on them, the kill rate went up dramatically.
 
 

[Ike99]

Ike,

First and foremost let's try and keep this "debate" civil.

I said that once the Allied pilots learned the Zero's strengths and weaknesses and adapted their tactics things changed for the Zero.

I am civil Todd. Am I the one using CAPS?

But one thing is certain and everyone agrees upon it, the Wildcat is modeled too weak in the game. By how much is open too debate. If this is because the plane itself is modeled too weak or the pilot experience is set too low at game start is the question.

They should raise something, otherwise in CF, watching the tactical battles when Zeros vs Wildcats is going to be painful.

[tocaff]

Ike,

It's not a question of who's doing what, I just am making a plea to all for civility.  You tend to stir the pot a bit and I don't want to see things heating up as they have recently. 

Guys,

Regardless of who says what let's all try to stay on topic and not get into flaming, etc.  Let's show mutual respect for all and if some sources of info conflict with others so be it.  Games, flight sims in particular, are just that-games and no matter how well they're modeled they're still just games and not reality.

I think that we can all agree that the best sources for the relative strengths and weaknesses of the aircraft in question are the pilots who flew them.  If a Japanese pilot ,Saburo Saki, was amazed at how much punishment a Wildcat could take and still fight then that reflects on the Zero's inadequate armament and light construction as much as it's a tribute to the Wildcat's toughness.  I also believe that we've all pretty much agreed that the Zero is to deadly in UV against the Wildcat and we can only hope that CF addresses it somehow.

Peace    Paz         

[Ike99]

If a Japanese pilot ,Saburo Saki, was amazed at how much punishment a Wildcat could take and still fight then that reflects on the Zero's inadequate armament and light construction as much as it's a tribute to the Wildcat's toughness.

Hans didn´t finish the rest of the story Todd.

I could not believe what I saw; the Wildcat continued flying almost as if nothing had happened. A Zero which had taken that many bullets into its vital cockpit would have been a ball of fire by now....

And the rest of the story is...

¨I dropped back and came again in on his tail. Somehow the American called upon a reserve of strength and the Wildcat jerked into a loop. That was it. His nose started up. I aimed carefully at the engine, and barely touched the cannon trigger. A burst of flame and smoke explode outward from the engine. The Wildcat rolled and the pilot bailed out. Far below me, almost directly over the Guadalcanal coast, his parachute opened. The pilot did not grasp the shroud lines, but hung limply in his chute. The last I saw of him he was drifting in towards the beach..."

[Miller]

I think the four main battles between the Wildcat and Zero can be classed as follows:

Coral Sea - Draw
Midway - Wildcat win
Early Guadalcanal - Zero win
Late Guadalcanal - Draw

[decaro]

I can't accept your comparison.

For one thing, in all the Allied confusion, many Wildcats were MIA at Midway, so they weren't there to provide fighter cover and challenge the Zero CAP.

In fact, the only significant fighter clash at Midway was during the introduction of the Thatch Weave, a maneuver that had nothing directly to do w/the aerodynamics of either the Wildcat or the Zero; it was simply one pilot's innovative answer to being out-numbered.

[tocaff]

Ike I read the original book about Saburu Saki when I was a kid and yes I know what an extraordinary pilot he was.  I don't care what he was flying, he was so good at what he did that he was deadly with a pea shooter and a kite. 

The 20mm cannon on the Zero were Hispano, if I remember correctly and they were crap compared to others.  Yes a crappy 20mm hits harder than a .303 mg any day. 

The Zero's undoing was it needed more power, more protection, more firepower and more and better trained replacement pilots.  In other words you either improve or advance to newer platforms or die.

[Ike99]

I think the four main battles between the Wildcat and Zero can be classed as follows:

Coral Sea - Draw
Midway - Wildcat win
Early Guadalcanal - Zero win
Late Guadalcanal - Draw

Santa Cruz?

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: Ike99

I think the four main battles between the Wildcat and Zero can be classed as follows:

Coral Sea - Draw
Midway - Wildcat win
Early Guadalcanal - Zero win
Late Guadalcanal - Draw

Santa Cruz?

These comparisons are irrelevant as far as the Wildcat and Zero are concerned; for one thing, compare the OOBs at Santa Cruz:

"The Japanese fleet consisted of four carriers: Shokaku (CV), Zuikaku (CV), Junyo (CVE), and Zuiho (CVL); four battleships: Hiei, Kirishima, Kongo, and Haruna; nine cruisers; 28 destroyers; eleven submarines and seven other ships.

On the US side was a fleet of less than half that size: Enterprise (CV-6), Hornet (CV-8), South Dakota (BB-57), Portland (CA-33), Northampton (CA-26), Pensacola (CA-24), Juneau (CLaa-52), San Diego (CLaa-53), San Juan (CLaa-54), and 14 destroyers."

Like Coral Sea, it was another tactical loss/strategic victory for the Allies, who successfully diverted the IJN away from the 'Canal, but at the price of the Hornet.

[tocaff]

Yep, that's the way it was historically and is in UV. The war was a meat grinder where attrition was the name of the game and the outcome was dictated by production.

I'm hard pressed to find soldiers who could do more with less any better than the Japanese troops did. Much of their equipment was 2nd rate and/or antiquated. Did I mention how good they functioned on empty stomachs?

[barkhorn45]

what other troops in the world then and now would continue to fire their machine gun in a pillbox on okinawa while a tank/dozer pilled dirt over the aperture entombing them forever it had the marines watching shaking their heads in wonder and disbelief!

[decaro]

I understand some Republican Guard Divisions during Desert Strom refused to come out/surrender and were also buried alive by US forces.

[mdiehl]

Ah. Now I see where the other discussion originated.

I think the people defending the Wildcat have missed the point. USN aviators had the necessary tactics to defeat the Zero from the outset. In face to face encounters between F4Fs and A6Ms at Coral Sea, the Wildcats won. They didn't win the battle in re ships sunk, but they shot down more Zeroes than they lost to Zeroes. And that is despite the fact that VF2 (IIRC) went into their engagement at low power settings to conserve fuel. At Santa Cruz, the F4Fs again won, at least in re number of enemy fighters they shot down vs the number of F4Fs lost to enemy fighters. At Midway it was essentially a draw (IIRC).

I can't think of a single NAVAL aviation engagement -- carriers vs carriers -- where the Zeroes won the day. The only good days the IJN realized were in the Guadalcanal campaign, and there they won by a very slim majority.

[mdiehl]

what other troops in the world then and now would continue to fire their machine gun in a pillbox on okinawa

Most of the other troops in the world would have suspended firing that MG and stepped outside to use a bazooka, schrek, or faust, or simply stayed in the pillobox and taken out that tank with a PIAT or knocked the treads off with a rifle grenade. Standing by your ineffective weapon while you lose doesn't strike me as bravery -- instead it's dronery.

[OG_Gleep]

Most of the other troops in the world would have suspended firing that MG and stepped outside to use a bazooka, schrek, or faust, or simply stayed in the pillobox and taken out that tank with a PIAT or knocked the treads off with a rifle grenade.

 
Most of the other troops in the world would have surrendered. Closer to religous fanatics then soldiers in that sense.

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: OG_Gleep

Most of the other troops in the world would have suspended firing that MG and stepped outside to use a bazooka, schrek, or faust, or simply stayed in the pillobox and taken out that tank with a PIAT or knocked the treads off with a rifle grenade.

Most of the other troops in the world would have surrendered. Closer to religous fanatics then soldiers in that sense.

Cult of Emperor worship.

[tocaff]

Bushido.  Life is held cheaper in Asia than the West.

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: tocaff

Bushido.  Life is held cheaper in Asia than the West.

If bushido is analogous to chivalry, then the samurai's relationship to the Emporer would be like that of a vassal towards his lord/king.

"Under the Bushido ideal, if a samurai failed to uphold his honor he could regain it by performing seppuku (ritual suicide)."

Failing to defend the Emporer's bunker is dishonerable, therefore, allowing oneself to be buried alive inside is a kind of seppuku in which the samuria/soldier regains his honor at the cost of his life?

(I'm actually at work waiting for the IR Spectrophotometer to warm-up).

[tocaff]

I never understood the fight to the death in a hopeless situation for a lost cause, but that's a cultural thing.  The Japanese couldn't understand the Allied soldiers surrendering, even if it was ordered and treated them horribly as a result because of the concept (Japanese) of honor.  To retreat and fight again makes more sense that spitting on a tank allowing it to roll over you.

[decaro]

The problem of surrender is the stigma that would be attached to any IJ soldier/sailor who would go home so dishonored; he would dishonor his family, even his dead ancestors.

"Better off dead" seems appropriate here.