Brave Sir Robin

[Rainer]

Thanks Dixie [:)]

had out-of-country pop to reconstitute from = meant to imply that that the Dutch and Phillipino forces did not have access to manpower reserves to embark on large scale rebuilding of any military units due to the occupied state of their homelands [8|]

I think I have a beer now. A German beer. Oops, sorry, a Bavarian beer [;)]

[rockmedic109]

If lack of supply is going to be the cause of the fall of Singapore, then taking a few combat units out will actually make it last longer {supply drops less}. 
 
Wholesale evac of Dutch and Filipino forces does seem a little gamey.  So does Dutch airforce bombing occupied resources and oil.
 
As for the Brave Sir Robin strategy, I do not think it very effective.  It does nothing to slow or attrite the  Japanese and attrition is key.  Rtrap made a good point about victory points but I've never played for VPs {or PBEM}.  Limited withdrawal of non-combat units, Asiatic Fleet HQ {helps ship repair in Darwin} makes sense if you try to get the entire unit. 

[John 3rd]

As on the other Thread location, I hate the Sir Robyn strategy.  It is useless.  As a reasonably good Japanese player, I KNOW that I cannot replace my losses by an Allied Player who actually FIGHTS for the DEI and surrounding territory.
 
Lose 2-3 US CVs?  No big deal.  I'll just get them back as Essex's in 1943/1944.  Lose 8 CA?  No big deal.  I'll get them back as Baltimore's during the same time.
 
In the few times I have played the Allies, I have fought with everything I have and have bled the Japanese player to the point that my counteroffensive could easily start at the same time or earlier then the real Allies did in 1942.
 

[Feinder]

The more (longer) that I play WitP, the more that I consider the WitP engine (and especially so the land combat engine) a steaming pile of poo.
 
IMO, the OBs of the units, and the capabilities of the units themselves, bear little resemblence to their actual historical counter-parts.  I do NOT consider the full-scale invasion of Australia or the whole-sale conquest of India a "historical what-if".  I -do- cosider it entertaining fantasy.   But no, I do not by any attempt at justification, cosider it "a historical what-if".  While I am quite sure many would say I was myopic biggot for claiming that, well - I've been called worse.
 
Given that in WitP a massive invasion of India or Oz seem to be the norm, WitP is therefor categorized as "entertaining fantasy".  It -IS- a very enjoyable game.  But it is a very POOR simulation.  It's an excellent, very complicated and detailed *fantasy*, but as far as simulation is concerned; well, it's not. 

[Big B]

ORIGINAL: Feinder
... While I am quite sure many would say I was myopic biggot for claiming that, well - I've been called worse.
...

Myopic biggot - - - I like the sound of that[:D]

[Nomad]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

The more (longer) that I play WitP, the more that I consider the WitP engine (and especially so the land combat engine) a steaming pile of poo.

IMO, the OBs of the units, and the capabilities of the units themselves, bear little resemblence to their actual historical counter-parts.  I do NOT consider the full-scale invasion of Australia or the whole-sale conquest of India a "historical what-if".  I -do- cosider it entertaining fantasy.   But no, I do not by any attempt at justification, cosider it "a historical what-if".  While I am quite sure many would say I was myopic biggot for claiming that, well - I've been called worse.

Given that in WitP a massive invasion of India or Oz seem to be the norm, WitP is therefor categorized as "entertaining fantasy".  It -IS- a very enjoyable game.  But it is a very POOR simulation.  It's an excellent, very complicated and detailed *fantasy*, but as far as simulation is concerned; well, it's not. 

Fantasy Warfare in the Pacific? [:D]

[John 3rd]

While I understand your point in principle Feinder, I completely disagree with it in reality.  The reason most Japanese players launch a large-scale attack into either location is due to pulling units out of China and/orManchuria.  HAD the Japanese chosen to do this then they might have had to ability to do what many players (such as myself) like to try.
 
The biggest issue within WitP from a Japanese perspective is the lack-of-cooperation between the IJA and IJN.  This cannot be modeled in the game.  A reasonably competent Japanese player KNOWS that one cannot win in China and the Russians aren't going to intervene as long as you leave a minimum force level there.  The withdrawal of 5-8 Infantry Divisions and supporting units would have been enough to make such a move possible. 
 
Note that I do not say practical...
 
This not fantasy, it is warGAMING.
 
IMO...
 

[Big B]

Gamey or war gaming?

Gamey might be ambushing the other sides best Admiral in a transfer flight to kill him off...oops- they did that IRL.
Pulling out experienced personnel to rebuild other units and instill the experience gained - oh well, they did that too.

So what is gamey?

To me - gamey is taking advantage of game engine limitations that could not have been done ITRW...such as dropping one squad in a hex behind an enemy to block that enemy force from retreating and thereby forcing a surrender....Or perhaps landing one squad in San Francisco or Truk to see what engages that squad in the land combat phase - a sort of 'super recon'.

Beyond that sort of thing - I think the line really blurs between being gamey and doing your best.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Big B

Well, to paraphrase what vettim89 nicely said above -

WWII happened how it happened. If you wish to agree, that under no circumstances - you will move one inch beyond the limit of historical Japanese expansion/nor build one more unit than Japan historically did - then I will agree to not save/move any unit that was historically destroyed in that time and place.

However, WitP is a fluid game - and such guarantees cannot/should not be made...otherwise we can all just watch a documentary and drink a beer.[;)]

The last time I checked you were not able to build more units than the Japanese had IRL. Granted the existing scenario design often duplicates or triplicates units that existed in history...however it is not like the japanese can build or fabricate NEW land, air or sea units beyond what the scenario designer feels should be present. As an example as a Japanese player i cannot build additional Battleships after the Yamato and musashi are added to my inventory. Nor can I create 30 additional fighter Sentais over and above what the scenario provides.

Just my 2 pfennings on this one aspect...

[rtrapasso]

Or perhaps landing one squad in San Francisco or Truk to see what engages that squad in the land combat phase - a sort of 'super recon'.

Well, dunno about SF or Truk, but i believe on occasion Sub Based "recon" did happen (i.e.: putting commandos onto a beach) - not sure how often it happened in the Pacific, but they did it in the Med and pre-Normandy. It certainly wasn't meant to provoke combat like it automatically would in WITP... but i don't think the game engine allows for stealthy "commando style" recon.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005


The Japanese player (in stock at least) has several advantages over history. First and foremost is knowledge of his opponents OOB and the ability to alter his accordingly...not much to be done about that.

Beg to differ on the foreknowledge issue....the japanese in fact have very good pre-war intelligence on what they were facing....as I posted in another thread...

Interesting quote in "The Dutch Naval Air Force Against Japan" dealing with this whole foreknowledge issue -

So instead of an overt invasion, the IJN took steps to intensify covert intelligence operations throughout the East indies. A large fleet of approximately 500 Japanese fishing boats - manned by some 4,000 civilians, reservists and active-duty personnel - was assigned to the operations. To support this fleet, the Japanese set up entire fishing communities and fisheries throughout the NEI., which allowed their ships to move at will. In some instances Japanese submarines resupplied them.

As a result, the fishing boats were able to move freely. In the process, they often flagrantly violated Dutch territorial waters and fishery regulations to "fish" and dive for pearls near important military installations. When stopped and searched, many were often found with sophisticated sounding equipment, well-detailed charts of various harbors throughout the East indies and powerful radio equipment capable of transmitting all the way to Japan.

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: Big B

Well, to paraphrase what vettim89 nicely said above -

WWII happened how it happened. If you wish to agree, that under no circumstances - you will move one inch beyond the limit of historical Japanese expansion/nor build one more unit than Japan historically did - then I will agree to not save/move any unit that was historically destroyed in that time and place.

However, WitP is a fluid game - and such guarantees cannot/should not be made...otherwise we can all just watch a documentary and drink a beer.[;)]

The last time I checked you were not able to build more units than the Japanese had IRL. Granted the existing scenario design often duplicates or triplicates units that existed in history...however it is not like the japanese can build or fabricate NEW land, air or sea units beyond what the scenario designer feels should be present. As an example as a Japanese player i cannot build additional Battleships after the Yamato and musashi are added to my inventory. Nor can I create 30 additional fighter Sentais over and above what the scenario provides.

Just my 2 pfennings on this one aspect...

Depends what you want to call "units" - lots of extra shipping put in for the IJN in stock (was put in mainly for the AI).

EDIT: Also, i believe that the original poster was referring to the fact that it is possible to make non-historical number of aircraft, and was referring to these as "units" (i.e. - not as formations). This is my guess at the intention of the author, and may not be what he meant.

[Big B]

Well in the sense of "units" (a variation of the technicality of the term) you very well may produce more units in WitP than in History - as measured by individual units of aircraft, men, guns etc.

It is semantically splitting hairs - but nonetheless valid.

The USA produced some 15,000 units of P-51 Mustangs, Germany produced some 30,000+ units of BF-109's, 485 units of PZKW VIB Tiger II's - etc. And as the player - IF you save a unit fragment of each unit potentially destroyed - you may also rebuild that unit in its entirety.

The point being - in WitP you may produce more 'unit's than was historically possible, and therefore have greater military potential - in sum total - than was historically possible.


B

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: Big B

Well, to paraphrase what vettim89 nicely said above -

WWII happened how it happened. If you wish to agree, that under no circumstances - you will move one inch beyond the limit of historical Japanese expansion/nor build one more unit than Japan historically did - then I will agree to not save/move any unit that was historically destroyed in that time and place.

However, WitP is a fluid game - and such guarantees cannot/should not be made...otherwise we can all just watch a documentary and drink a beer.[;)]

The last time I checked you were not able to build more units than the Japanese had IRL. Granted the existing scenario design often duplicates or triplicates units that existed in history...however it is not like the japanese can build or fabricate NEW land, air or sea units beyond what the scenario designer feels should be present. As an example as a Japanese player i cannot build additional Battleships after the Yamato and musashi are added to my inventory. Nor can I create 30 additional fighter Sentais over and above what the scenario provides.

Just my 2 pfennings on this one aspect...

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: rockmedic109

If lack of supply is going to be the cause of the fall of Singapore, then taking a few combat units out will actually make it last longer {supply drops less}.

Wholesale evac of Dutch and Filipino forces does seem a little gamey. So does Dutch airforce bombing occupied resources and oil.

You consider that gamey, even when considering the several tons of dynamite they used initially to blow the resource and oil (sometimes ineffectually) or the fact that B-17's flying out of Java ostensibly under the direction of ABDA flew such missions???

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005


The Japanese player (in stock at least) has several advantages over history. First and foremost is knowledge of his opponents OOB and the ability to alter his accordingly...not much to be done about that.

Beg to differ on the foreknowledge issue....the japanese in fact have very good pre-war intelligence on what they were facing....as I posted in another thread...

Interesting quote in "The Dutch Naval Air Force Against Japan" dealing with this whole foreknowledge issue -

So instead of an overt invasion, the IJN took steps to intensify covert intelligence operations throughout the East indies. A large fleet of approximately 500 Japanese fishing boats - manned by some 4,000 civilians, reservists and active-duty personnel - was assigned to the operations. To support this fleet, the Japanese set up entire fishing communities and fisheries throughout the NEI., which allowed their ships to move at will. In some instances Japanese submarines resupplied them.

As a result, the fishing boats were able to move freely. In the process, they often flagrantly violated Dutch territorial waters and fishery regulations to "fish" and dive for pearls near important military installations. When stopped and searched, many were often found with sophisticated sounding equipment, well-detailed charts of various harbors throughout the East indies and powerful radio equipment capable of transmitting all the way to Japan.

But this knowledge led the Japanese to NOT attack the DEI until after the situation in Malaysia and the PI was well in hand: they did not attack the DEI for over a month after PH.

How many IJ players do that? None that i've heard of... the players know what the exact strengths are to start, and what the Allied player can do, and so can blitz through these areas (usually).

[treespider]

Ahhh the technicality trump card....

I tend to think of units as Divisions, Brigades and battalions and not in terms of devices.

With my definition of units you only having X number of divisions and X number of Air groups. You cannot fabricate those things. They have a hard and fast limit.

ORIGINAL: Big B

Well in the sense of "units" (a variation of the technicality of the term) you very well may produce more units in WitP than in History - as measured by individual units of aircraft, men, guns etc.

It is semantically splitting hairs - but nonetheless valid.

The USA produced some 15,000 units of P-51 Mustangs, Germany produced some 30,000+ units of BF-109's, 485 units of PZKW VIB Tiger II's - etc. And as the player - IF you save a unit fragment of each unit potentially destroyed - you may also rebuild that unit in its entirety.

The point being - in WitP you may produce more 'unit's than was historically possible, and therefore have greater military potential - in sum total - than was historically possible.


B

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: Big B

Well, to paraphrase what vettim89 nicely said above -

WWII happened how it happened. If you wish to agree, that under no circumstances - you will move one inch beyond the limit of historical Japanese expansion/nor build one more unit than Japan historically did - then I will agree to not save/move any unit that was historically destroyed in that time and place.

However, WitP is a fluid game - and such guarantees cannot/should not be made...otherwise we can all just watch a documentary and drink a beer.[;)]

The last time I checked you were not able to build more units than the Japanese had IRL. Granted the existing scenario design often duplicates or triplicates units that existed in history...however it is not like the japanese can build or fabricate NEW land, air or sea units beyond what the scenario designer feels should be present. As an example as a Japanese player i cannot build additional Battleships after the Yamato and musashi are added to my inventory. Nor can I create 30 additional fighter Sentais over and above what the scenario provides.

Just my 2 pfennings on this one aspect...

[Big B]

I believe that ANY land combat in a hex will display ALL enemy units participating in combat in that hex.

Therefore, your 12 men paddle ashore, and engage the local beach defense unit - you won't just see that local beach defense unit on the combat screen - I believe EVERY unit in the hex will show up as they bombard you and engage your "12 man patrol".

That is what I meant by "super-reccon"

B

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

Or perhaps landing one squad in San Francisco or Truk to see what engages that squad in the land combat phase - a sort of 'super recon'.

Well, dunno about SF or Truk, but i believe on occasion Sub Based "recon" did happen (i.e.: putting commandos onto a beach) - not sure how often it happened in the Pacific, but they did it in the Med and pre-Normandy. It certainly wasn't meant to provoke combat like it automatically would in WITP... but i don't think the game engine allows for stealthy "commando style" recon.

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: vettim89

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

i will point out that by leaving your troops in place to be reduced piecemeal, you are giving the Japanese player several thousand points, which means you will have to recoup that times 1.75 or 2 or 3 in order to get a win*... and by having the troops available, it makes it easier later in the game...

i personally don't do a "full-fledged" Sir Robin, but i do make it a priority to get out non-combat type units (Base Forces, HQ, etc.) i will point out the Allies generally made attempts to do the same, except in real life, the "Base Force" units were attached to air units for the most part. When evacuating, air units made every attempt to get out their mechanics, etc. when they left from what i've read.

*EDIT - depending on when you are trying to get a win... or it might make it that much easier for the Japanese to get an autovictory by giving them a few thousand extra points.

I would agree but both the planes and pilots that did get out were incorporated into existing units at their final destination. The game engine allows you to save a handful of men from the PI or Singapore and transport them to Oz or India and slowly the units rebuild to full strength. That is where the game separates itself from history. If the OOB is corrrect and all historical formations eventually appear then it does give the Allied player "gain" units for later use.

Not all units show up in the game... there are not enough slots. Not all ships show up (at least for the Allies)... not all plane types can show up... not all WEAPON types can show up. So, reusing a "fragment" is a valid way of (partially) getting around this, i think.

AE might remedy some of this.

[treespider]

The Japanese IRL knew what they were facing....

...IMO you're issue is more with game logistics than the actual intelligence. The game allows the Japanese player to achieve the Blitz for a variety of reasons that the IRL Japanese did not have...

Had the Japanese had the game capabilities that they currently have now who knows what would have happened.

AE will hopefully correct some these capabilities.

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005


The Japanese player (in stock at least) has several advantages over history. First and foremost is knowledge of his opponents OOB and the ability to alter his accordingly...not much to be done about that.

Beg to differ on the foreknowledge issue....the japanese in fact have very good pre-war intelligence on what they were facing....as I posted in another thread...

Interesting quote in "The Dutch Naval Air Force Against Japan" dealing with this whole foreknowledge issue -

So instead of an overt invasion, the IJN took steps to intensify covert intelligence operations throughout the East indies. A large fleet of approximately 500 Japanese fishing boats - manned by some 4,000 civilians, reservists and active-duty personnel - was assigned to the operations. To support this fleet, the Japanese set up entire fishing communities and fisheries throughout the NEI., which allowed their ships to move at will. In some instances Japanese submarines resupplied them.

As a result, the fishing boats were able to move freely. In the process, they often flagrantly violated Dutch territorial waters and fishery regulations to "fish" and dive for pearls near important military installations. When stopped and searched, many were often found with sophisticated sounding equipment, well-detailed charts of various harbors throughout the East indies and powerful radio equipment capable of transmitting all the way to Japan.

But this knowledge led the Japanese to NOT attack the DEI until after the situation in Malaysia and the PI was well in hand: they did not attack the DEI for over a month after PH.

How many IJ players do that? None that i've heard of... the players know what the exact strengths are to start, and what the Allied player can do, and so can blitz through these areas (usually).

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Big B

I believe that ANY land combat in a hex will display ALL enemy units participating in combat in that hex.

Therefore, your 12 men paddle ashore, and engage the local beach defense unit - you won't just see that local beach defense unit on the combat screen - I believe EVERY unit in the hex will show up as they bombard you and engage your "12 man patrol".

That is what I meant by "super-reccon"

B

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

Or perhaps landing one squad in San Francisco or Truk to see what engages that squad in the land combat phase - a sort of 'super recon'.

Well, dunno about SF or Truk, but i believe on occasion Sub Based "recon" did happen (i.e.: putting commandos onto a beach) - not sure how often it happened in the Pacific, but they did it in the Med and pre-Normandy. It certainly wasn't meant to provoke combat like it automatically would in WITP... but i don't think the game engine allows for stealthy "commando style" recon.

i understand this - i also understand that some recon did go on that is not possible in the game as it currently stands.

So, which way to err? Too much or too little? Or should they try to get it "right"? And if so, how should / could they do it?