Why is it gamey to use LBA to protect his TFs if LBA is in range?
i think he was being ironic...
Probably. In "From here....eternity" (it's sad when one can't remember the exact title of the AAR one is playing in, isn't it....<vino strikes again>) he has seen Allied carriers support operations off Fiji and Canton Island without ANY land based fighter cover. So, it's not a tactic that I use against him. I can't speak for other situations that he has seen though.
Ta.
<edit to add> oh, BTW, is there a turn out there for us?
Sing to the tune of "Man on the Flying Trapeze" ..Oh! We fly o'er the treetops with inches to spare,
There's smoke in the cockpit and gray in my hair.
The tracers look fine as a strafin' we go.
But, brother, we're TOO God damn low...
[font="times new roman"]Much BETTER numbers over the previous month. Supply jumped 160,000 and fuel climbed 60,000. Encouragingly my Oil stockpile also went up by 150,000. If this can happen for a few months in a row then I think we are OK. There are two large convoys currently unloading in Osaka right now (June 5th) and they will help with continuing to raise those numbers.[/font]
Don't forget that anything loaded on ships (oil/resources/fuel/supplies) are NOT counted on the Industry report screen.
I would put P-38s as LRCAP if I was able to do so to protect my CVs. Its like a player pulling off his DB/TB and replacing them with more fighters. It is a sound strategy, at times, not gamey.
A players CVs are his most irreplaceable asset he has. The Japanese don't get his back while the Allied player has to wait 1 1/2 years (unless he is playing RHS).
Tabpub--I sent a turn to you days ago and haven't gotten anything back.
Can anyone name a single time ARMY LBA covered US--or Japanese CVs for that matter--during the war? I just ran the turn and, sure enough, there were 7 P-38s flying CAP over the Brit CVs. They weren't that effective in that they only shot down about 35 planes...
Tallyho--I am hopeful to see those numbers climb more for the next month's report.
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
Tabpub--I sent a turn to you days ago and haven't gotten anything back.
Can anyone name a single time ARMY LBA covered US--or Japanese CVs for that matter--during the war? I just ran the turn and, sure enough, there were 7 P-38s flying CAP over the Brit CVs. They weren't that effective in that they only shot down about 35 planes...
Tallyho--I am hopeful to see those numbers climb more for the next month's report.
I bet there is also nobody who could name a single time when Australia was invaded during WW2. [;)]
I understand your feelings about this issue but that is something that needs to be discussed between the players, best case beforehand.
Not to pour oil into the fire but out of interest, did the japanese ever attack significant allied shipping (like CV/BB) within range and chance of allied land based LRCAP, lets say 1943 or later?
If you gained knowledge through the forum, why not putting it into the AE wiki?
Can anyone name a single time ARMY LBA covered US--or Japanese CVs for that matter--during the war?
When would it ever get mentioned? Only times might be during CV battles - and when was there ever a CV battle within range of a US base where Army fighters were within range??
Coral Sea - no
Midway - no
Santa Cruz - no (no P-38s at Guad then)
Eastern Solomons - no (no P-38s at Guad then)
Marianas Turkey Shoot - no
Leyte Gulf - no
Sinking of HMS Hermes - land based CAP was supposed to be "on the way" - not sure if it ever arrived (i'm still looking for more histories on this - i have a vague recollection that the CAP got mauled, but i am not sure if it was RAF or FAA CAP.)
Have i missed any?
As for the Japanese Army covering Navy ships: things were so bad between the two services the Army wouldn't spit* on the Navy if they were on fire... and vice versa... the Navy certainly wouldn't ask the Army for help on general principles.
*i was going to use a different word, but substituted this one.[;)]
AHA - in the defense of the HERMES: "The Royal Australian Air Force lost at least 8 Hawker Hurricanes and the Fleet Air Arm one Fairey Fulmar."
EDIT: Hmmmm... reading more - it isn't clear if these were lost in defense of Hermes or over Trin. which was attacked about the same time... i'll try Shores later...
First, I feel your pain. In a stock GC game against my brother of all people he moved 50 LB Zeroes to Munda and then LR CAPped his CV TF. In stock with UberCAP you can imagine how well that went for me. Yeah I thought it was gamey but just shrugged it off as a lesson learned
Second, you have used every device available to you to put yourself in the posistion you are right now which is pretty good by what I would dare to say would be most people's opinions. Some of what you have done might be considered gamey by some. I choose not to make such judgements. As long you did not violate a House Rule your opponent and you agreed upon prior to the start of the game, why would anyone feel the need to question your play.
I said a few days ago that I think you have played a great game. I still feel that way. So Dan found a way to use the game system to his advantage - so what? Find a way to counter it or take measures to prevent it. Sending a CVTF out that far at this stage of the game was a calculated risk. If you rolled the dice and lost I guess all I can say is no one but yourself compelled you to take the chance. Just OMHO
"We have met the enemy and they are ours" - Commodore O.H. Perry
John, I have to agree with Vettim, and you have played an almost flawless game to this point, much better than I could have. So I'm going to ask a question.....
Hindsight is 20/20, but your TF as composed was not stronger and maybe weaker than the 3 RN CV's you knew to be in the Indian Ocean. You then put that TF in a position where his damaged ships could easily make port, and yours would perish from any significant damage. I don't think the 7 P-38s would change the outcome. Junyo and Hiyo were not strong enough to beat the local forces, nor fast enough to run from trouble. 1 1/2 years is a long time to not make one strategic mistake, but I think you made one before the battle ever started.
Not to criticize, as I said you are smarter than me at this game![&o]
Well maybe I can add 100-250 Tony/Tojo over the Fleet for my Decisive Battle sometime in the next few months when I am fighting the Pacific Fleet wherever Dan decides to attack to begin his counter-offensive...
I want people to understand that I am not whining. It has been a great campaign and I am in amazing shape for this point in the war. Things--as the Japanese--are bound to change no matter how well the war is fought.
I am planning a full report on the Battle when it has concluded. We just had the 2nd Day of it and when I complete the next turn, I should be able to do a complete recap of the action. Will write that as soon as Dan gets the June 12th turn to me.
Would the LR CAP by Army Fighters be a 'good' Forum topic in the War Room? I am always up for stirring the pot!
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
Can anyone name a single time ARMY LBA covered US--or Japanese CVs for that matter--during the war?
When would it ever get mentioned? Only times might be during CV battles - and when was there ever a CV battle within range of a US base where Army fighters were within range??
Coral Sea - no
Midway - no
Santa Cruz - no (no P-38s at Guad then)
Eastern Solomons - no (no P-38s at Guad then)
Marianas Turkey Shoot - no
Leyte Gulf - no
Sinking of HMS Hermes - land based CAP was supposed to be "on the way" - not sure if it ever arrived (i'm still looking for more histories on this - i have a vague recollection that the CAP got mauled, but i am not sure if it was RAF or FAA CAP.)
Have i missed any?
As for the Japanese Army covering Navy ships: things were so bad between the two services the Army wouldn't spit* on the Navy if they were on fire... and vice versa... the Navy certainly wouldn't ask the Army for help on general principles.
*i was going to use a different word, but substituted this one.[;)]
I think that Okinawa would qualify as an instance here where combined land/air groups covered shipping; I couldn't say at this point if Army fighters ever participated in any fights over fleet carrier TG's. I think they mainly freed the fleet carriers to use their fighters over themselves, rather than covering transports in the roadstead.
Sing to the tune of "Man on the Flying Trapeze" ..Oh! We fly o'er the treetops with inches to spare,
There's smoke in the cockpit and gray in my hair.
The tracers look fine as a strafin' we go.
But, brother, we're TOO God damn low...
AHA - in the defense of the HERMES: "The Royal Australian Air Force lost at least 8 Hawker Hurricanes and the Fleet Air Arm one Fairey Fulmar."
EDIT: Hmmmm... reading more - it isn't clear if these were lost in defense of Hermes or over Trin. which was attacked about the same time... i'll try Shores later...
OK - according to Bloody Shambles volume 2 - land based Fulmars DID defend the Hermes...(obviously unsuccessfully) - but the losses noted were mainly over Trincomalee... it appears these were FAA fighters, not the Aussie Hurris.
Tabpub--I sent a turn to you days ago and haven't gotten anything back.
Can anyone name a single time ARMY LBA covered US--or Japanese CVs for that matter--during the war? I just ran the turn and, sure enough, there were 7 P-38s flying CAP over the Brit CVs. They weren't that effective in that they only shot down about 35 planes...
Tallyho--I am hopeful to see those numbers climb more for the next month's report.
I don't think this is gamey at all!
You just have to find a way to defeat it or draw his carriers away from the LBA.
I cannot sleep and have decided to write up the Battle of the Maldives that has taken place over the dates of June 10-16, 1943.
About the end of May I had sent a CV TF into the Indian Ocean. The force consisted of CVs Junyo/Hiyo and CVLs Shoho and Zuiho. They were escorted by 3 CA, 1 CL, and 8 DD. The Carriers were commanded by Adm. Nagumo and took a position on the west side of India looking for convoys. The TF sat there for 4 days before they were discovered by Allied Recon. Knowing that the RN was at Madras, I ordered the CVs towards the Maldives in the hopes of bugging out or giving battle if things looked OK. The fight should have started on the 9th but (for some reason) neither side launched when in range. Sensing trouble (in the form of the discussion above regarding the use of Army LBA to buttress CAP) I decided to head for Sabang in a full speed sprint.
The decision to make the sprint cost me the battle. Fuel was starting to run somewhat low but I was appalled to find after the 8 hex move SE that I had moved into the red. From that day on I was crippled in terms of movement and running for home. This was a monstrous mistake that probably cost me a CV.
June 10th
Morning finds the fleets at a range of 4 hexes and everything launches. The British launch a strike of 22 F, 14 Avenger, and 36 Albacore versus my 43 Zero. Having split the CVs into 2 TF, the Brits elect to attack Junyo/Hiyo's TF. In a spirited air battle, I lose 10 Zero in change for 6 Seafire, 5 Sea Hurricane, 4 Albacore (26 Damaged), and 1 Avenger (10 damaged). The British planes concentrate mainly on Hiyo and put 3 TT into her. Junyo takes a torpedo as well but it only amounts to very lite damage.
The Japanese Strike is a balanced 27 Zero, 33 Val, and 25 kate. The British put up 38 Seafire, 11 Hurricane, and (as I feared) 7 P-38. My Zeros do pretty well against the Seafire and Hurricanes but the P-38s rip them to shreds. The Escort collapses (17 shot down) and the bombers are then ripped apart. ALL the Vals are shot down as well as 19 of the 25 Kates. UBER-CAP has been eliminated??? The SIX survivors make runs on RN Hermes and miss!
I watched this fight THREE times and actually counted the kills. Those P-38s (SEVEN of them) shot down over 30 of my planes.
Thoroughly pissed and angry, I watched two smaller strikes of mine get slaughtered as well.
The British launch a couple of ineffective strikes that miss Shoho and Zuiho that afternoon.
With having little-to-no fuel, I order everyone to head for Sabang and move 36 Betty and 54 Zero there to take a crack at the Brits if they move close enough...
June 11th
Junyo brings up the rear and is attacked by 10 F and 22 TB the following morning. The attack is resisted by 10 Zero. I lose 1 Zero for shooting down 1 Fighter and 4 TB. I begin to hope that life might be OK as I see TB after TB drop and miss Junyo---until the FINAL group of 4 place 1 Torp along her starboard side. This slows Junyo and she is hit by 2 laser-guided bombs drobbed by Naval Attack--Trained LB-30 bombers.
The Brit afternoon strikes comes after my CVLs and--once again--they miss. The only good news...
June 12th
My TF are now pretty spread out. Hiyo is limping along the edge of the board slowly sinking and Junyo is headed down (after 3 TT dropped 12 TB) and sinks later that day.
My CVLs are limping along at a 1-1 speed but are slowly drawing nearer to Sabang. In an afternoon strike, 16 Zero fight 9 Fighters and 20 TB. Losing none, they manage to destroy 2 Fighter and 2 TB before they initiate their attacks. Once again I watch with gorwing hope as TT after TT miss their targets until the LAST group of 4 TB hit Shoho with a single TT. Grrr.... Luckily it does only superficial damage!
Another small strike puts a TT into DD Hatsuzuki.
June 13th
Dreading the turn, I watch the replay and see things continue on with the disaster.
In two attacks, 22 Liberators (once again using lasrer-guided munitions) put 3 bombs onto CA Mikuma followed by 8 F and 8 TB putting 2 Torps into her hull.
DD Naganami takes 2TT and is scuttled at the end of the day.
June 14th
A STF actually intercepts my fuel-starved CVL TF! Figuring this is it, I am amazed to watch the small screen of 1 CA and 4 DD successfully fight of a TF of 1 CA, 2 CL, 2 CLAA, and 6 DD. I have 3 DD damaged but not too severely.
In the morning CA Maya (once part of Junyo's Screen) takes a bomb hit and in the aftenoon gets a pair of TT. Luckily Japanese CA are made of stern stuff and she makes harbor.
CA Mikuma is hit by another Torp and sinks.
There are no daytime strikes against my CVLs!
On this day I also sortie 13 DD from Singapore to go SS hunting near Sabang. They are divided into 2 TF of 6 and 7 DD.
June 15th
Dan finally breaks away as he get to a range of 9 hexes from Sabang.
He finishes off DD Hatsuzuki and my survivors approach Sabang.
June 16th
I finally scuttle CV Hiyo. She made an effort to survive but we all know what Japanese damage control is like!
Results
Ships lost: CVs Junyo and Hiyo, CA Mikuma, and 2 DD. CVL Shoho is moderately damaged (Sys 22), CA Maya is severely damaged (Sys 45 and Flot 53), and 3 DD are wounded but will survive.
On the air side of this disaster, I got fighters from both Junyo (7 Zero) and Hiyo (8 Zero). My CVLs are at about 50% strength with pilots. This is bad but not terrible...
Summation
This is the first serious defeat for the Imperial Navy. I attribute it to 3 things:
A. They were exposed with where I placed them.
B. The Fuel Situation crippled my movement and cost me severly.
C. UBER-CAP does live in this Mod as seen by how the initial aristrikes went.
Status
While not a mortal blow, it does beg the question of OK...what do we have left and what is coming?
1. I have a total of 7 CV (Akagi-Kaga, Hiryu-Soryu, Shokaku-Zuikaku, and Taiho) wth 2 CVL at Kwajalein.
2. There are 6 CVE operating NE of Pago-Pago right now. I will recall them and move them towards Kwajalein.
3. Within the next 60 days I shall gain another CV and 2 CVL. These ships make up for my losses within this battle.
My normal reaction would be to lash out at Dan but that would be stupid. I will keep everything reined in and await his opening attack.
As said earlier this AAR, I have a HUGE number of troop carrying TF moving around right now. The Inner Defence Perimeter is beginning to take form. There are large numbers of engineers working at Marcus, the Islands of the Marianas, Yap and Palau. I just got my big troops reinforcements in China and the Home Islands. I order at least 1 Brigade to Marcus, Pagan, Saipan, and Tinian. There is Infantry, Armor, and support units moving into the Philippines as well. Given some time, the Inner Perimeter will be as stout as the Outer within about 45 days.
There you have it!
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
I was wondering. Did you get crippled by the refuel bug? By that I mean where your DD's kept fueling from your CV's every turn to stay topped off even though they really didn't need it.
"We have met the enemy and they are ours" - Commodore O.H. Perry
Thanks Mistmatz. You can darn well bet that I am looking for opportunities for a few counterpunches!
Vettim--Yes the refuel bug hit twice in that time period. Even after the full speed turn, my reading was that I still had enough fuel to make it home at normal speed. The next day my DDs topped off (slowing my movement) and my carriers as well as CAs were completely dry...
GREAT!
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
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