Why?

[siRkid]

Why is there more talk about the Original H&M on this Fourm than the new one?[>:][>:][>:]

[Alan Sharif]

good question

[DeadInThrench]

Why???? I'll tell you why!

For starters.... it has been a year and a half since Matrix acquired the rights to HnM... and in that time.... what have we seen? Diddly squat! There was talk of a re-release that was supposed to happen... over a year ago.. and now after all this time... their plan now is to combine PWM and PG into one game and re-release. Sheesh. They could have done that a year ago. The only value-add here that I see is Magnus' artwork.... and although that is cool not worth it for me to pay money for that in a game having the same abysmal AI.

The problem here.... is Matrix acquires the rights to these games (not just HnM but lots of others) and they sign up someone for the development and... one gets the impression that Matrix will only pay them a percentage of what their enhanced version sells and... one can say that is wise on Matrix' part as they don't have $$$ sinking into the bottomless pit of programming projects taking 'longer than expected'.

But, on the other hand.... it typically turns out that these individuals have their Matrix game devlopment as their 2nd job.... or 3rd.... or 4th... or even their 5th job which I saw in the Empires in Arms forum. This would not be a problem.... if the job gets done but what has been happenning.... is the individual ends up with no time for the project and then it drags on and on and on (and that means you get a lot of would-be customers getting pretty disenchanted).

So, what Matrix SHOULD do..... is make the individuals signing up for the development... OWN UP TO..... getting certain things done by a certain time.... and if they DON'T GET THE JOB DONE.... then Matrix has the discretion of taking the development of the game back.. and/or giving it to someone else.

Hey..... this is not a matter of getting down on the individuals case (hey, in TOAW... they are progressing at a 1 LOC/MM pace)... but if they don't have the time to get the job done they don't have the time. So, just a matter of whether Matrix can do something about it and... if they are so disposed to so do something about it.

Then there's the second reason.... will do a separate post.

DiT

[DeadInThrench]

The second reason.....!!!!!

Well, and this goes through Boku and Shrapnel and now into Matrix, IMO.... the business plan for Dave Erikson's and Mike Cooney's product..... SUCKS! (<g>... nothing like not mincing words and coming right out and saying it... lol).

To be specific... instead of deciding what the market SHOULD want.... instead let your decisions on what product is released... be based on what THE MARKET WANTS.... again, instead of what you THINK they should want.

To be more specific.... the original Dragoon was nice but HnM.... IMO went a lot further... and the reason.... George Washington on the cover.... along with like 3 battles of the American Revolution. Now, George... was NOT the greatest general that ever walked the surface of this earth.... BUT.... the interest is there in those American Revoultion battles.

Then..... there are also the.... British Battles. Marborough, etc. Now, I am not a fan of the British but.... the point is.... there are lots of people out that that ARE... and that should mean opportunity.

On the other hand..... what we seem to be getting since PWM first came out.... an attempt at sucking all they can out of us with just the 7YW. Sheesh.... PWM only had like 5-6 battles (same for PG).... with all sorts of useless sub-battles. On the other hand... Steel Panthers (winSPWW2) has over 300 unique scenarios..... TOAW... over 200.

So, you really expect me to pay first for PWM (which was worth it Mike Cooney's interface) and then pay again for just another 5 7YW battles???

No, I don't think so.

What they SHOULD do.... and this is a list:

HnM2, Vol 1: Frederick The Great
HnM2, Vol 2: George Washington and the Battles of the American Revolution (and throw in the FIW battles)
HnM2, Vol 3: British Battles (including Ferdinand but not the North America battles)
HnM2, Vol 4: War and Peace in the 18th Century (this would be a catch all for all the other battles... Swedes, Russians, non-Frederick non-Ferdinand Prussians, French, Sardinians, Spanish, etc).

Now.... with this scheme.... they could take Bill Sherman's ARW battles, convert them to PWM engine, and get something like this out almost overnight. Same with the British batttles and the rest. Also, keep a couple of the sub-battles for beginning players but... throw the rest of them out.

Long term.... they could plan an HnM3 that would be much improved AI and game systems... and when they put that out.... those with registered copies of the originals would get a discount... but otherwise new version full price. Yeah, would need a DESIGNER that can handle wargame design but.... this should be obvious.

So.... they COULD do this and IMO these games would sell.

But nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!! <g>

I made comments along these lines before but felt I was just getting lip service so stopped bothering... and am NOT gonna hold my breath on anything changing. So, what the heck, maybe hack and work with what is there now with PWM. I wrote a program that took HPS EAW Guildford Courthouse... and compressed the map and converted it to PWM format. Never added the units but.... with a PWM page out there now.... maybe I will indeed finish that and get it out there.

DiT

P.S. Oh, Bill Sherman was constrained with what he could do with the FIW and ARW scenarios, by the HnM design constraint of 150 m/Hex... and in truth most of these scenarios could use a smaller scale... so could stand to be tweeked. Hmmm... yeah, Bill Sherman might be willing to do that himself.. whatever.

P.S.2. Oh, in case it is not obvious.... the Vol 1: FtG game.... would contain ALL of FtG's battles. Yeah..... there are user developed scenarios out there for all of em can convert to PWM and add now.

[Tim Coakley]

I would like to set the record straight on a few points brought up below. These are my comments, and are not official Matrix Games responses. I have responded under each paragraph below:


For starters.... it has been a year and a half since Matrix acquired the rights to HnM... and in that time.... what have we seen? Diddly squat! There was talk of a re-release that was supposed to happen... over a year ago.. and now after all this time... their plan now is to combine PWM and PG into one game and re-release. Sheesh. They could have done that a year ago. The only value-add here that I see is Magnus' artwork.... and although that is cool not worth it for me to pay money for that in a game having the same abysmal AI.

----- PG and PWM are being combined into one game for re-release. Completely updated graphics, and a greatly expanded scenario editor. All variables are now editable. This will not only allow uses to create scenarios for battles that may never get covered in a full game, but it will also streamline future game releases. If these are not worth your money, do not buy the game. I have read many threads by the posters in the forums, and I have taken careful notes for future games.


The problem here.... is Matrix acquires the rights to these games (not just HnM but lots of others) and they sign up someone for the development and... one gets the impression that Matrix will only pay them a percentage of what their enhanced version sells and... one can say that is wise on Matrix' part as they don't have $$$ sinking into the bottomless pit or programming projects taking 'longer than expected'.

-----I will not comment on the Matrix sales/production/development model. I personally am very happy with my arrangement with Matrix and I have met many developers that feel the same. I am personally invested in this project.

But, on the other hand.... it typically turns out that these individuals have their Matrix game development as their 2nd job.... or 3rd.... or 4th... or even their 5th job which I saw in the Empires in Arms forum. This would not be a problem.... if the job gets done but what has been happening.... is the individual ends up with no time for the project and then it drags on and on and on.

-----The computer war-game development business is a very niche field. There are very few people that can afford to do it full time. I am a full time army officer...getting ready for Iraq. This has delayed HnM development, but the main delay has been in gathering the new art work (from someone that also has a full time job).

So, what Matrix SHOULD do..... is make the individuals signing up for the development... OWN UP TO..... getting certain things done by a certain time.... and if they DON'T GET THE JOB DONE.... then Matrix has the discretion of taking the development of the game back.. and/or giving it to someone else.

-----Matrix does not set deadlines so they do not put out rushed products. I will again emphasis that Matrix is very popular with developers, and the developers have a strong loyalty to the company for all the support they receive.

Hey..... this is not a matter of getting down on the individuals case (hey, in TOAW... they are progressing at a 1 LOC/MM pace)... but if they don't have the time to get the job done they don't have the time. So, just a matter of whether Matrix can do something about it and... if they are so disposed to so do something about it.

-----Not sure what this all means.

Then there's the second reason.... will do a separate post.

-----Looking forward to it.

DiT
[/quote]

[DeadInThrench]

IMO..... keeping developers happy at the expense of keeping customers happy... is not sound business practice.

Also, IMO, Matrix is outstanding as a publisher but is going through some growing pains with Matrix sponsered development. But, as far as my comments are concerned, they can take em or leave em. I make my comments but it doesn't do me or anyone else any good for me to belabor them. So, again, they gotta do what they gotta do.

Otherwise.... IMO... it doesn't really make any difference what you say or what I say. The only thing that matters.... is the results.

And so far, the results.... are silent.

DiT

[sullafelix]

Well I for one don't want a reissue with no improvements whatsoever, like the Talonsoft game rereleases. I did buy one of the compilations but it was cheap and&nbsp;I still have the hope that there will be improvements made. I also made the same comments as far as going back to the original premise of an 18th century wargame instead of just FG. But with the people that seem interested and the new scenario editor maybe many more user made scenarios will appear.
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&nbsp;I do however think that we should be cutting TC a lot of slack. Also if this were any other gaming company there would be no mention of a game until it was ready to ship. Let alone have a forum while it is being worked on. I really wish that TC could have completed his own game of Napoleonic warfare, that one I was drooling over.

[siRkid]

I did not want to start a flame thread all I want is to see more information about the game. I'm very intrested in buying this game but from the amout of action in this fourm you would not think there isn't any progress being made.

[Alan Sharif]

Not a fan of the British......................what is the world coming to [:)]

[Tim Coakley]

No problem, Kid. No flame war here. Just explaining a little from the development side.

I will have some good info when I get back from my training end of April.

[Tim Coakley]

ORIGINAL: sulla05

Well I for one don't want a reissue with no improvements whatsoever, like the Talonsoft game rereleases. I did buy one of the compilations but it was cheap and I still have the hope that there will be improvements made. I also made the same comments as far as going back to the original premise of an 18th century wargame instead of just FG. But with the people that seem interested and the new scenario editor maybe many more user made scenarios will appear.

-----We considered the "whole game" concept, but it did not work out either with the development plan/timeline or financially.


I do however think that we should be cutting TC a lot of slack. Also if this were any other gaming company there would be no mention of a game until it was ready to ship. Let alone have a forum while it is being worked on. I really wish that TC could have completed his own game of Napoleonic warfare, that one I was drooling over.

---- Nappy game...me too! I do plan on the HnM engine coming to play in the future for Napoleonics.

[Tim Coakley]

A few more comments:

"HnM2, Vol 1: Frederick The Great
HnM2, Vol 2: George Washington and the Battles of the American Revolution (and throw in the FIW battles)
HnM2, Vol 3: British Battles (including Ferdinand but not the North America battles)
HnM2, Vol 4: War and Peace in the 18th Century (this would be a catch all for all the other battles... Swedes, Russians, non-Frederick non-Ferdinand Prussians, French, Sardinians, Spanish, etc). "

---- I have very similar plans for the game engine. Plus things like 1812, Napoleonics...

"I made comments along these lines before but felt I was just getting lip service so stopped bothering..."

---And I took plenty of notes on all your ideas. That does not mean they wll be included, but certainly considered.

---Regarding Bill Sherman...he has already given me permission to use his work for future scenarios.

---Game scale: the editor can not be used to set all the variables so you can reduce the scale. Nice feature that was added in over the year of development.

--- All 7YW in one game: I plan on finishing 7YW with one more release.

--- Sub Battles: Lots of people like these...great for PBEM.

DiT --- I think we agree on where we want the games to go...it is simply a matter of resources be it Time, Money, Programmer, Artist...

[DeadInThrench]

ORIGINAL: Tim Coakley

--- All 7YW in one game: I plan on finishing 7YW with one more release.

Uh.... I would suggest reserving Ferdinand for a British Battles release.... Ferdinand was Prussian but most of the units under his command.... were British, Hanoverian, etc.

Also.... would reserve Kesseldorf and the other 7YW battles not commanded by Frederick... for the 'catch all' release. Just the Russians and Swedes.... ain't gonna cut it IMO. But, if you got Kesseldorf, etc, and the French, Spaniards and Sardinians..... then we are talking a lot more.

Also.... if you do a 7YW release... what happens to the WAS scenarios with FtG in command??

So.... I was talking a FtG release... not a 7YW release but... whatever.

Sheesh... it would be nice to see a COMPREHENSIVE PLAN here... not just 'something along those lines'. If I were back there in Corporate America and did not have a comprehensive plan along these lines.... management would have had me strangled.

DiT

[DeadInThrench]

ORIGINAL: Tim Coakley

DiT --- I think we agree on where we want the games to go...it is simply a matter of resources be it Time, Money, Programmer, Artist...

Yeah... no kidding and.... then it is a matter of what we ultimately get when and if there is a release.

So, wise on my part.... and others so inclined... to just go with what we have now.... until such time as things change. If PrinzHenrich does HnM or PWM scenarios.... I am sure you can always convert them to a new release.... if and when that happens.

DiT

[PrinzHenrich]

That could be a PROBLEM. My scenarios aren't perfect. I was able to do in HnM engine with all his failures. If i have more ability there posible were better scenarios. (i want wagons and horse artilery and village mens with pikes)

[Sertorius1]

What they SHOULD do.... and this is a list:

HnM2, Vol 1: Frederick The Great
HnM2, Vol 2: George Washington and the Battles of the American Revolution (and throw in the FIW battles)
HnM2, Vol 3: British Battles (including Ferdinand but not the North America battles)
HnM2, Vol 4: War and Peace in the 18th Century (this would be a catch all for all the other battles... Swedes, Russians, non-Frederick non-Ferdinand Prussians, French, Sardinians, Spanish, etc).

&nbsp;
Greetings, DiT and all,
&nbsp;
As someone who owns a copy of the PWM I find most of your comments spot on, particularly the one above and have argued for the same thing on another board. I particularly like this idea:
&nbsp;

Long term.... they could plan an HnM3 that would be much improved AI and game systems... and when they put that out.... those with registered copies of the originals would get a discount... but otherwise new version full price. Yeah, would need a DESIGNER that can handle wargame design but.... this should be obvious.

&nbsp;
The reason I like it is because that I'm not all that happy with the PWM. While a number of improvements have been made that I do like, there are some things I don't care for, the scenario editor being one of them. &nbsp;The one from HnM was better than the new one. I took an old Dragoon scenario and made a copy with the PWM and it worked fine, but when I did a copy of Leuthen the application won't allow the unit/commander assignments to be made.
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Things like this&nbsp;are a shame for Dragoon and HnM showed me an evolution towards and ideal realized, a superb wargame. Unfortunately, this wasn't the case. I hope the next&nbsp;version turns out better.
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Anyone know if any other patches other than this one? I didn't see any other ones in the download area here. I hope that these bugs might have been worked out by now. Of course, the CD shipped to me could have a defect in it.
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Dragoon2PWM-100To101Patch
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[Sertorius1]

If one of you moderators or an administrator reads this, send me a pm. I need to get you to do something for me involving my account, please. Thanks.