An exercise in frustration

[RocketMan]

I really want to like this game, but the way orders are issued makes the gaming experience an exercise in frustration.

For instance: If I want to target a specific enemy unit with my HQ unit but want to move one of the squads a few meters into cover, I can’t do it. If I want to move a squad but my HQ unit is “mounted,” I have to unmount the HQ unit, issue a move order and then remount the HQ unit. If I have a squad running towards cover and then he gets suppressed, the only way to get him moving again is to give a move order to the HQ unit. If I want to retarget or replot the orders for the HQ unit, I have to redo the orders for any squads I plotted before. I could go on, but anybody who has played this game for any length of time knows what I am talking about.

I can understand the design decision to focus more on platoon operations instead of on individual squads, but the implementation of this idea has some serious flaws. If I want to make sure all units make it into cover, instead of just moving parallel to the HQ unit and staying the exact same distance from the HQ unit, I have to plot orders for each squad anyway.

I can just imagine what the conversation on the battlefield would be like if this actually was how real battles were fought. “I am going to run over to those trees. You guys keep the exact spacing from me when we get there as we have now. But Sarge, that leaves me 40 meters in front of the trees right in the line of fire of those four MG’s! Shut up and do as you are told private!”

And that is how I feel about the orders interface. It doesn’t matter what I want to do, or whether or not it would make any sense in the “real” world, the command decision has been made and I am just supposed to live with it.

[Erik Rutins]

Rocketman,

ORIGINAL: RocketMan
For instance: If I want to target a specific enemy unit with my HQ unit but want to move one of the squads a few meters into cover, I can’t do it.

Why not? Engage->Target with your HQ and then Engage->Move with your other squad.

If I want to move a squad but my HQ unit is “mounted,” I have to unmount the HQ unit, issue a move order and then remount the HQ unit.

That's correct - but this only happens if the HQ unit is mounted. It doesn't come up for me that often but it's a minor annoyance.

If I have a squad running towards cover and then he gets suppressed, the only way to get him moving again is to give a move order to the HQ unit.

Why is that? As long as the platoon still has a base platoon order that allows movement, you just re-issue the order to the squad. But the squad shouldn't lose its move order because it's suppressed anyway, it should just be unable to complete it until it unsuppresses.

If I want to retarget or replot the orders for the HQ unit, I have to redo the orders for any squads I plotted before. I could go on, but anybody who has played this game for any length of time knows what I am talking about.

True, so you learn to plot the HQ unit first, then the others if you are going to move the whole platoon.

Honestly, you're the first one that has described the orders as an exercise in frustration - we've had a range from folks who need some help understanding them to others who pick them up without even reading the manua. Half the examples listed above tell me that you haven't figured out what you can really do with the orders yet and I'd be happy to help out. Feel free to list more specific frustrations and if I can help with them I will.

I can understand the design decision to focus more on platoon operations instead of on individual squads, but the implementation of this idea has some serious flaws. If I want to make sure all units make it into cover, instead of just moving parallel to the HQ unit and staying the exact same distance from the HQ unit, I have to plot orders for each squad anyway.

Depending on the angle and the shape of the cover, yes sometimes you need to plot each squad.

I can just imagine what the conversation on the battlefield would be like if this actually was how real battles were fought. “I am going to run over to those trees. You guys keep the exact spacing from me when we get there as we have now. But Sarge, that leaves me 40 meters in front of the trees right in the line of fire of those four MG’s! Shut up and do as you are told private!”

How is this worse than other games where you have to plot every squad anyway?

And that is how I feel about the orders interface. It doesn’t matter what I want to do, or whether or not it would make any sense in the “real” world, the command decision has been made and I am just supposed to live with it.

Sorry to hear that, I'd be happy to help you get over the learning curve if you want some additional help.

Regards,

- Erik

[NefariousKoel]

I know the commands take some getting used to but hopefully this helps:

The base order that you issue to the HQ platoon is the base order all other squads in the platoon use. That's the first row for orders. The slideout window for that first is where you pick more specific things to do with each squad.

So, as Erik stated, if you wanted to target an enemy with one squad and move the other, then you'd issue any Engage order to your platoon HQ. It's subordinate squads can then use Engage>(anything) such as Engage>Move, Engage>Target, Engage>Hold for instance.

The same goes for when your HQ is mounted. You can still issue an Engage order of any kind to the HQ, such as Engage>Hold and the subordinate squads can still Engage>Move, Engage>Fire, what have you. Defend>Move and Defend>Hold would work just as fine, too. You do not have to dismount a squad to give it orders and they can often fire when riding, anyway.

Anyway, think of platoon commands as having categories. What the HQ uses, it only restricts the others to using the sub-commands of the first category, not the exact command the HQ uses.

Hope this helps.

[RocketMan]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

ORIGINAL: RocketMan
For instance: If I want to target a specific enemy unit with my HQ unit but want to move one of the squads a few meters into cover, I can’t do it.

Why not? Engage->Target with your HQ and then Engage->Move with your other squad.

Because I didn't know you could do that. Thank you for pointing it out. However, it would be nice to be able to rush as well, but it is definitely something I missed , and I even read the manual!

If I want to move a squad but my HQ unit is “mounted,” I have to unmount the HQ unit, issue a move order and then remount the HQ unit.

That's correct - but this only happens if the HQ unit is mounted. It doesn't come up for me that often but it's a minor annoyance.

True, taken by itself it is a minor annoyance. But it is an accumulation of minor annoyances that makes for a frustrating gaming experience.

If I have a squad running towards cover and then he gets suppressed, the only way to get him moving again is to give a move order to the HQ unit.

Why is that? As long as the platoon still has a base platoon order that allows movement, you just re-issue the order to the squad. But the squad shouldn't lose its move order because it's suppressed anyway, it should just be unable to complete it until it unsuppresses.

I can't issue orders to squads unless I issue an order to the HQ unit first. What probably happened was that the HQ unit finished its move orders when the squad was suppressed, which caused the squad to lose it's movement orders. In that case you have a squad out in the open, who you want to have "rush" towards cover, and the only way to get them to do that is to reissue a rush order to the HQ unit.

If I want to retarget or replot the orders for the HQ unit, I have to redo the orders for any squads I plotted before. I could go on, but anybody who has played this game for any length of time knows what I am talking about.

True, so you learn to plot the HQ unit first, then the others if you are going to move the whole platoon.

Honestly, you're the first one that has described the orders as an exercise in frustration - we've had a range from folks who need some help understanding them to others who pick them up without even reading the manua. Half the examples listed above tell me that you haven't figured out what you can really do with the orders yet and I'd be happy to help out. Feel free to list more specific frustrations and if I can help with them I will.

That's my point. If I have already plotted "the HQ unit first, then the others," which I of course have learned to do, and then I decide I want to change just the HQ unit's orders, the game resets all sub unit orders and I have to replot them. Again, a minor annoyances by itself, but minor annoyances add up to frustration.

I can understand the design decision to focus more on platoon operations instead of on individual squads, but the implementation of this idea has some serious flaws. If I want to make sure all units make it into cover, instead of just moving parallel to the HQ unit and staying the exact same distance from the HQ unit, I have to plot orders for each squad anyway.

Depending on the angle and the shape of the cover, yes sometimes you need to plot each squad.

I may be an exception, but to get all my squads into cover with any reasonable separation between them, I have to plot orders for each squad not sometimes, but almost every time.

I can just imagine what the conversation on the battlefield would be like if this actually was how real battles were fought. “I am going to run over to those trees. You guys keep the exact spacing from me when we get there as we have now. But Sarge, that leaves me 40 meters in front of the trees right in the line of fire of those four MG’s! Shut up and do as you are told private!”

How is this worse than other games where you have to plot every squad anyway?

Because other games where you have to plot every squad anyway don't first force me to plot the HQ squad before you can plot the other squads.

And that is how I feel about the orders interface. It doesn’t matter what I want to do, or whether or not it would make any sense in the “real” world, the command decision has been made and I am just supposed to live with it.

Sorry to hear that, I'd be happy to help you get over the learning curve if you want some additional help.

Part of my problem is that I have been using computers for close to twenty five years and I have lost patience with software that is not intuitive. I just want to play a game, enjoy myself and not have to fight the interface. No game is perfect, and honestly, you guys have done some good things with PZCK. I will probably eventually make peace with the games interface, because the underlying gameplay has a lot of promise. But it does not change the fact that, for me, the interface is frustrating and requires more clicking than it needs to have.

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: RocketMan

And that is how I feel about the orders interface. It doesn’t matter what I want to do, or whether or not it would make any sense in the “real” world, the command decision has been made and I am just supposed to live with it.


Part of my problem is that I have been using computers for close to twenty five years and I have lost patience with software that is not intuitive. I just want to play a game, enjoy myself and not have to fight the interface. No game is perfect, and honestly, you guys have done some good things with PZCK. I will probably eventually make peace with the games interface, because the underlying gameplay has a lot of promise. But it does not change the fact that, for me, the interface is frustrating and requires more clicking than it needs to have.

Hey there Rocketman....good to see you here.

I was very frustrated with the interface my first couple of battles. I couldn't get my INFANTRY to fire! The tanks I had no problem with.

The issue is in the orders and how they are arranged. What seems intuitive at first as a CM gamer isn't in PC. But when you finally get an idea as to how the orders are grouped it makes alot more sense.

Advance they can move and fire..but mostly move.

Rush they just run forward. No firing.

Engage they can move until they find targets then they fire. This order allows some to move and others to hold their positions. This is an offensive order set.

Defend also allows for some to move and others to hold their positions. This is a defensive order set.

Bound is for the Germans only. They have half move and the other doing overwatch. Then during reaction movement they switch assignments and end up back together.

There are sub-orders under each of these that allow you to fine tune your intentions.

Hope that helps a bit. When you get ready lets try a PBEM.

Good Hunting.

MR

[RocketMan]

Mad Russian,

I am up for a PBEM game. I didn't really start enjoying CM until I started playing PBEM. Perhaps a PBEM game is just what I need to help me make peace with the PZCK's interface!

Do you have a preference for a game/side?

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: RocketMan

Mad Russian,

I am up for a PBEM game. I didn't really start enjoying CM until I started playing PBEM. Perhaps a PBEM game is just what I need to help me make peace with the PZCK's interface!

Do you have a preference for a game/side?

I don't care. We need to both know the scenario and which sides we will take BEFORE we start. Setup in PC is done simultaneously.

So, if you have one you like let me know and we'll do that.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Erik Rutins]

Hi Rocketman,

ORIGINAL: RocketMan
Because I didn't know you could do that. Thank you for pointing it out. However, it would be nice to be able to rush as well, but it is definitely something I missed , and I even read the manual!

Ok - please feel free to ask questions as we did not deliberately try to make things frustrating. However, we did try to model the fact that orders are issued by platoon and in a very short period of time during battle, so the limitations are part of the command modeling.

In short, we want you to commit (for the next 80 seconds) to a Platoon order for each platoon. Some Platoon orders are more flexible than others. Some are better used in combat, some are better used before actual combat is joined. You are free to adjust your squad orders within the context of the platoon order you chose and you are allowed a Reaction (which can be outside the normal Platoon order options) midway through a turn for emergency situations.

If you take a look, Engage is definitely the most flexible Platoon order and is meant to be a fairly all-purpose attack/combat order, with Defend probably the next most flexible. The other orders are all generally specialized to one degree or another.

Another thought is that you may not need to Rush everywhere. Although Rushing is fast, it does leave your squads more exposed. Sometimes it's safer to cross an area a bit more slowly if you have even light cover.

By the way, I am using your gridded grass mod, so thanks for that!

I can't issue orders to squads unless I issue an order to the HQ unit first. What probably happened was that the HQ unit finished its move orders when the squad was suppressed, which caused the squad to lose it's movement orders. In that case you have a squad out in the open, who you want to have "rush" towards cover, and the only way to get them to do that is to reissue a rush order to the HQ unit.

Ok, normally if all units in the squad reach their move destination, then the squad reverts to "Defend" orders at the start of the next phase. As far as I know, if the suppressed squad still had a movement path the platoon would not revert to Defend unless those move orders were cancelled (possibly due to morale or a Halt reaction).

I may be an exception, but to get all my squads into cover with any reasonable separation between them, I have to plot orders for each squad not sometimes, but almost every time.

Have you tried using the Regroup order periodically to reform your squad in the formation and direction of your next movement? I find this helps me minimize individual placement requirements.

Part of my problem is that I have been using computers for close to twenty five years and I have lost patience with software that is not intuitive. I just want to play a game, enjoy myself and not have to fight the interface. No game is perfect, and honestly, you guys have done some good things with PZCK. I will probably eventually make peace with the games interface, because the underlying gameplay has a lot of promise. But it does not change the fact that, for me, the interface is frustrating and requires more clicking than it needs to have.

Ok, I hear you, but I hope that some of the info here will help you to find it less frustrating. It's pretty transparent for me at this point and I find I can play out a turn with fewer clicks than I do for an equivalent number of units in CM, but I know the orders themselves pretty darn well at this point.

Regards,

- Erik

[RocketMan]

One of the things I like about Matrix is their excellent customer support, and you are a big part of that Erik.

I normally don't bitch about games on boards, but after an excedlingly frustrating game where I had to reload numerous times, I had to vent my frustration.

I'm sure my view of the interface puts me in a minority of people playing the game. The fact that the rest of the game is so ploished probably made my frustration with the interface even more acute. I will stop bitching now.

[RocketMan]

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

ORIGINAL: RocketMan

Mad Russian,

I am up for a PBEM game. I didn't really start enjoying CM until I started playing PBEM. Perhaps a PBEM game is just what I need to help me make peace with the PZCK's interface!

Do you have a preference for a game/side?

I don't care. We need to both know the scenario and which sides we will take BEFORE we start. Setup in PC is done simultaneously.

So, if you have one you like let me know and we'll do that.

Good Hunting.

MR

Jump to:

Then let's try Return Road to Kharkov. It looks like a meeting engagement with a limited number of troops, so it should be a good one to start with. I'll play the Germans.

I'll send you my first file shortly.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: RocketMan
One of the things I like about Matrix is their excellent customer support, and you are a big part of that Erik.

Thanks!

I normally don't bitch about games on boards, but after an excedlingly frustrating game where I had to reload numerous times, I had to vent my frustration.
I'm sure my view of the interface puts me in a minority of people playing the game. The fact that the rest of the game is so ploished probably made my frustration with the interface even more acute. I will stop bitching now.

By all means, keep bitching. I'd rather respond and help you get past as many of your interface issues as possible, than have you just get more and more frustrated in private.

[Erik Rutins]

Read through this to help understand the PBEM sequence as well. Once you understand that it's two phase per exchange after the initial setup and Turn 1 Orders, it's easy to do but that can be a surprise if you're used to other systems.

tm.asp?m=1772118

[Mad Russian]

Good, then pick a scenario and let's get started.....this will be like the blind leading the blind more than likely.

I've done a scenario with the editor and you've already modded the game so let's play now....lol...

First things first you know..have to get your priorities in order!!

Do you still have my email from when you were in the KOTH2 tournament?

Good Hunting.

MR

[junk2drive]

It does take a while to get CM orders out of your head and PC orders in. The HQ order is like the lasso in CM except the AFVs in PC actually go where you intended instead of bunching up and reversing and...
 
(well, most of the time...)

[RocketMan]

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

It does take a while to get CM orders out of your head and PC orders in. The HQ order is like the lasso in CM except the AFVs in PC actually go where you intended instead of bunching up and reversing and...

(well, most of the time...)

The engineer in me views the world in a logical fashion, and I expect others to think logically too. Unfortunately, I am constantly disappointed by just how un-logical the world actually is! [:D]

[RocketMan]

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

Good, then pick a scenario and let's get started.....this will be like the blind leading the blind more than likely.

I've done a scenario with the editor and you've already modded the game so let's play now....lol...

First things first you know..have to get your priorities in order!!

Do you still have my email from when you were in the KOTH2 tournament?

Good Hunting.

MR

Sent the setup. Hopefully we can figure out together how to make it work!

[RocketMan]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Read through this to help understand the PBEM sequence as well. Once you understand that it's two phase per exchange after the initial setup and Turn 1 Orders, it's easy to do but that can be a surprise if you're used to other systems.

tm.asp?m=1772118

Thanks Erik. If I have any problems with the system, I will let you know.

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: RocketMan

ORIGINAL: junk2drive
It does take a while to get CM orders out of your head and PC orders in. The HQ order is like the lasso in CM except the AFVs in PC actually go where you intended instead of bunching up and reversing and...
(well, most of the time...)

The engineer in me views the world in a logical fashion, and I expect others to think logically too. Unfortunately, I am constantly disappointed by just how un-logical the world actually is! [:D]

It's Chaos Theory, not engineering.[:D]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory

[Erik Rutins]

Just FYI, I just updated the PBEM FAQ thread with a screenshot tutorial. Please review it if you run into any issues.

tm.asp?m=1772118

[RocketMan]

ORIGINAL: Mobius

It's Chaos Theory, not engineering.[:D]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory[/quote]

LOL But even Chaos theory seems logical to me [;)]